are bullies self-aware?

[totallyawesome]

I'm fairly new to this site, though have been lurking a little bit. I'm also not sure if this is a topic for "chat" or "relationships" - it's a bit of a straddler.

Anyway, my exH was (and still is) a very controlling bully. When he and I were together it reached a point where I was making a decision based on whether it would meet with approval, rather than whether it was my actual decision. My thoughts were not independent of the potential approval-rating, IYSWIM? I only stood up for myself if it was something I felt very strongly about. Either that, or I would sneak off and do whatever it was I wanted to do and not tell him.

In "conversations" I've had with him, he tells me that he is baffled at the split because we always seemed to be on the same wavelength and wanted the same things. Now, to me, that wavelength was his and there was only the occasional bit of convergence-most often it was me going with what he wanted to avoid a confrontation.

I'm in a new relationship now and I've been trying to explain to my new bloke what it was like living with this. Does anyone have experience of living with a bully? Did it become second nature to work around them? I can see that I became a doormat, but exH doesn't see that his behaviour was in any way bullying.

Jux, as far as I know he has not lodged with anyone so I doubt you have ever done anything wrong to me.

However, it does kind of illustrate the point about plausability, when someone is so good at it they have everyone around them believing it is the wife/boss/man in the street's fault. It is not until afterwards that people can look and see what was going on, leaving normal caring induividuals - like you Jux, feeling they have wronged someone. It is not just direct effect IMO there is so much knock on and fall out from a person like this it is frightening.

I have only known my ex 10 years but the destruction that has fallen in his wake is appaling. He just walks away unharmed, unaffected and unaware. He does not even see the mess. He has driven his own sister to drink, his mother to bankruptcy and his father to his grave (heartattack/angina/strss). But he turely believes he is a good man who only want sto help people.

About the Pat Craven book, Lavender, there were some good things in it, but I was kind of confused by the assertion that 60% of men who attend her weekend workshop are "cured" and become good partners. It seems aa dangerous claim to me.

Dailymailnamechanger I totally relate to this "but the destruction that has fallen in his wake is appaling. He just walks away unharmed, unaffected" I don't include where you say "unaware" because my ex is not unaware he just doesn't care. His Mum was lead to financial ruin by him and his constant borrowing from her and asking her to take out loans and he did the same to me. He honestly believes that if someone has money then he should have access to it as he will use it so much better than them (for drinking, gambling etc). He can justify anything to himself, even pawning all our electrical goods while I was away with dc for the weekend, he said "well I paid for them with money I didn't really have so I got the money back!" - he put the money on a football bet and lost the lot.

I don't think these men change either, they try but they can't keep it up for very long.

Mine was unaware - your sister has taken to drink - she was always a slapper. Your mother has lost everything - I only took a few pounds (which is true, he just did it day after day ...) He really couldn't see how he was responsible for it.

I suspect there is an illness of some sort that underlies all of it. An inbalance in brain function leading to lack of empathy (an extreme lack). Similar to the research they did on serial killers that suggested they simply could not expand their thoughts enough to include any understanding of someone elses pain or suffering. Just not quite so far along the scale obviously.

Lavender, acts like that leave me cold, how can anyone walk into an empty house and not recognise that it affects other people, that it is wrong?

I actually had a breakdown after that last one. I have never really been the same since. Have massive panic attacks every couple of days. He replaced the tv so still doesn't see it as a problem "I got it back FGS!!!, whats the problem?" I would like to put it down to his childhood but he has 3 siblings and none of them are like this and even though his dad is a knob, he isn't either. These men really can cost you your sanity as well as everything else.

A lot of bullying that happens behind closed doors is very controlled. If someone behaves appallingly at home, but can hold it all together in different social situations, it might be possible to think that the bully has some self-awareness. I don't know.

My father's behaviour, I think is driven by a sense of entitlement and certainly of control. His behaviour towards me and my siblings has been ghastly, but to the outside world, he is a saint. I think he has something wrong with his brain.

I think it is hard for 'normal' people to believe that anyone can behave in this lunatic way and think they are ok.

Entitlement is right. The Lundy Bancroft is very good about discussing this issue.

NicknameTaken, 'Bullies think that their bullying is the victims fault for being so bullyable'

Oh my God! Thank you so much for this. It explains so much, so brilliantly and succinctly.

This has really helped me, I'm sticking it on my fridge. thankyouthankyouthankyou!

Someone also wrote on a thread a couple of weeks ago that they just don't understand where they stop and you start.

It's embarrassing to have become such a wuss. I wish I could stand up to him. Getting divorced and still having to constantly apologise to him. Everything will always be my fault. Thank GOD I am out of there.

OP, of course it's second nature to work around them. They dominate using fear and punishment. They lack self awareness to a degree which is terrifying. Ever seen one of these buggers caught in a marriage guidance session? >hollow laughter< Scary.

"In "conversations" I've had with him, he tells me that he is baffled at the split because we always seemed to be on the same wavelength and wanted the same things. Now, to me, that wavelength was his and there was only the occasional bit of convergence-most often it was me going with what he wanted to avoid a confrontation."

DP's exW still doesn't understand, either. She thought her marriage was fine. Now, many years down the line, she tells DP that he has "changed" and has become "very tough" - because he no longer goes along willy nilly with everything she asks for. It took me a long time to understand what had been going on and we had to do a lot of talking about it.

This makes for interesting reading on the subject of bullies. I'm not sure if they are really unaware of the effect they're having, since so many of their colleagues are very surprised when they are divorced, spouses leave for shelters, etc. But they don't care about the effects on their 'nearest and dearest', and that's what makes them dangerous.

You're welcome, picmae! Very flattered to be on your fridge!

I have found this thread so interesting and agree with so many of the comments. I think it is brilliant that women can get so much support from a few lines of text on their laptop! However I would just like to put a slightly different slant on things.

It seems clear to me that bullies are MADE not born. I firmly believe that bullies are people who have been bullied. In all probability this happened in childhood (often by a controlling, punitive, angry parent - usually a father) and the child becomes a victim of this kind of illtreatment. When grown the victim turns perpetrator and inflicts the pain that he suffered on his wife/partner and children. He doesn't necessarily do this at a conscious level but he has learned this behaviour and isn't even aware sometimes of the effect it has on others. This of course is compounded by the fact that many women who are the victims of these men are afraid and do not challenge (very understandable) and this allows the men's behaviour to persist as he is not challenged or confronted.

I really hope no one thinks this is a veiled attempt to excuse violent men, because it isn't that. I still remember the pain I suffered (physically and emotionallY) when married to a violent man when I was a young mother many years ago. I just believe that behaviour is a product of experience (for all of us) and that difficulties in our lives are a re-enactment of difficults/traumas in our childhood.

I think that the outlook for violent men is very poor as by definition they are insensitive and do no possess incite and seek to blame others for their behaviour, all the kinds of things posted on here.

However I still believe that if a child is brought up with love and care and his emotional needs (as well as his physical needs) are met, the chances of him growing up a bully are remote. I know someone said that one bullying man she was involved with had sibs who were OK, but you have to live with someone to know them AND parents do treat children differently - one can be scapegoated for instance and so end up to be a damaged individual and possibly a bully.

Finally I know there will be comments like "you can't just put it all on their past, these men are responsible for their actions" and I don't disagree with that BUT I still think that my comments have some validity.

Anyone agree?

I think it's probably true that bullies are made, not born. My observations of my former in-laws and their attitudes, and what I know now of how exH was brought up, would bear that out.

exMIL is a domineering, attention-seeking cow, her household was regimented, inflexible, cold. She talks derisively about other people behind their backs, usually at the dinner table, has to blame someone for a problem before thinking of a solution, every occasion has to be turned into a drama starring her. The children's emotional needs were not met, and they still hover pathetically around the in-laws trying to get this need filled.

exFIl once broke one of the children's legs spanking her -- he was a doctor so his friends set the leg, never asked how it happened, no-one got reported. I would say exFIL took out his aggression on the children because he was afraid of his wife, used violence and caused fear as a way of asserting himself in the short time that he was actually at home (very devoted to his career in the hospital).

I don't think any of my ex's siblings came out unscathed, although all are high functioning professionals, went to top colleges, earn a lot -- they suck as parents and all have some degree of depression and a lot of inner anger. This is anecdotal, of course, but the in-laws seem to me to be the perfect storm of dysfunction. Wish I'd known then what I know now about personality disorders.