my brother may go to prison [sad]

[rubymoon]

Hi,

My brother is in court on Friday and may well be sent to prison. I have no idea what to expect or how to help him or his family. Although he did commit a crime he has pleaded guilty and he hurt no - one.

He will loose his job and struggle to get another when he is released. His wife and two smallish children will be left to pay a big mortgage and all bills (she works part time). Will they get any benefits?

I can not help financially and live quite far away. To be honest i have been avoiding dealing with this and have been of little support so far and feel useless.

It sounds like your brother didn't hurt anyone with his crime (or if people were hurt, he didn't intend this or probably didn't realise they would be), but had a moment of temptation and misjudgement while under stress and didn't think enough about the consequences for him and his family. I feel this is something that general society could understand and eventually forgive after people who know what he did, know that he has done the time to make up for the crime.

I don't know if this is a useful thing to say but felt the need to say it.

NACRO support organisations for family.suggest a benefits check to assess what wife entitled too

for her try maintain as much stability as possible for chidren. maintain routine best as possible

try think what to say to children about dad absence

Theft hurts people. A theft of £20,000-£60,000 is not, not hurting someone/anyone. I am quite shocked people think that is fine. I understand the original poster is supporting her brother and wants to support him and his family but a crime is a crime and theft, fraud and money laundering does hurt people on all sorts of levels.

I couldn't agree more, Angry.

Whilst I have every sympathy for the OP and her brother's family, this type of theft is a crime with a custodial sentence for a reason.

It does hurt people. That is why there is so much legislation against embezzling and money laundering.

It is not a victimless crime and should not be treated as such.

I mean, who wouldn't have a use for £20K-£60K?

That doesn't mean it's okay to steal it from your employer.

who said it was victimless?

We don't know the circumstances of the crime, and if his legal team initially felt that he wouldn't have a custodial sentence, then it's fairly safe to assume that it's a bit complicated.

Its not victimless but I don't think that's the point here. The OP is looking for support and advice for herself and her family. Arguing about how many people have been hurt by her brother's crime is irrelevant. SHE has been hurt, his wife has been hurt and all their family.

I agree that the purpose of the thread is to help the OP support her SIL etc. And one bit of advice might be to not get people's backs up by claiming 'he hurt no - one'. Best not to try and get people's sympathies over that, it will look better all round if it is admitted that it was a crime, full stop.I think people feel more inclined to help out and be sympathetic if they do not feel they are expected to condone the crime by doing so iyswim.

Hi,

Theft is certainly not a victimless crime it does hurt people. My first reaction was to be very angry and shocked. I have no interest in condoning what he has done - theft is wrong and lives are ruined by this sort of behaviour - I would never steal and have drummed it into my children that it is wrong as did my parents to us.

What i have to deal with is that someone I love did something really bad and now will have to pay for it (along with my sil and her perfectly innocent children). I do not accept that he is bad through and through - he did something stupid.

I wont turn my back on my brother and firmly beleive people in glass houses should not throw stones.

Hi,

When I said he hurt no-one I meant physically hurt - I can see now that i worded that wrongly!! Sorry if that did upset anyone and sorry to anyone who has been a victim of crime I did not mean to cause offense.

I read this thread with a growing sense of what a 'family' mumsnet is,there is no disputing the OPs brother is wrong and she is not trying to excuse him but lets be fair hes not raped or assaulted anyone,hes not beaten anyone in a drug filled stupor,hes not stolen a grandmas purse- hes done wrong and its not for us to judge him.

How many of us might be tempted if an opportunity arose?

How many of us would steal to feed our children if neccesary?

People get hurt every day by MPs and other civil servants abusing their positions.

The world is not perfect.

Let us support the OP and her family who are about to face a horrid time.

Hi Ruby

Sorry you are in this position. My BIL was imprisoned last year and was taken away straight away from the sentencing hearing. This also happened to someone else I knew, who was let out on licence after 1/3 of sentence, BIl was let out after half his sentnce.

Would suggest your SIL talk to CAB about what she would be entitled to benefits wise.

The awful thin about this situation is that although the op's brother has committed the offence the brunt of the penalty will fall on his wife and family - that is why imprisonment is such a blunt and brutal (and totally unconstructive) punishment.

An opportunity for me to steal money arises every single time I go to work because I work in a cash office, often alone. Am I ever tempted even when I cannot pay half my bills and I am scratting for change down the side of the sofa? The answer is 'no' and the reason i do that is because I know it is wrong.

You do not get to positions of trust within work if you are not trustworthy. I am afraid that is life.

I am really sorry I misunderstood your post OP, in that he did not commit a violent crime, but I was just pointing out that 'hurt' amounts to more than just violence. For a start, with his actions he has hurt you and his wife and his children. But I know you already understand this

I actually think honesty is most probably the best way out of this. People are more forgiving, on the whole, if you are honest. If you are honest, most people can accept that you have made a mistake and can forgive you.

I would recommend that your SIL goes to the CAB as soon as possible, try an make an appointment now as they usually have a horrendous waiting list. They will be able to tell your sil what benefits if any she can recieve. A lot of them can't be backdated so she needs to get started ASAP.

I am sorry you are all in this position. Your brother is lucky to have a supportive and loving family. With any luck he will be back with you all soon and be able to make up for the mess he has made.

From a practical stance:

here

Some prisons operate a system where you send a money order and they get credit in the prison shop to buy what they want -- i.e. stationary, stamps, soap, phone cards.

Seems to me that he won't go to a high security prison, but hopefully an open prison?

Like others have said, if he is given a custodial sentence, he will be taken to prison after sentencing.

He needs to ask his legal team how he will be able to communicate what prison he will be sent to, as I don't know how this is worked out.

Children can visit, and the last prison visit, the guards actually had spare nappies on the desk! Apparently people did run out and they were trying to be family friendly.

Best of luck for tomorrow. Please let us know how he got on...

I agree, Blu, who is ever wise and reasonable.

There has and should be and will be lots of support for the OP and for the family in question.

ruby, I know you are so upset! Of course you support your brother and his family and hope you've gotten some good advice and support here.

No, no one was physically hurt, that is true. There are very big crimes in the world.

Recently, my family was threatened homeless. Actually, we are now, by council's own definition.

In fact, if it weren't for DH's people taking us in next week, we'd be in temporary accommodation waiting for our council flat to be finished.

No question of a big mortgage, our landlord is coming home from turning his back on a very comfortable retirement in the UK to work helping train teachers in Africa. No question of benefits. We work and will as long as we are able because we believe benefits are for the truly desperate who have no other option. We are happy that we live in a society that protects the most vulnerable and have no truck with people on benefits at all, that has always been obvious from my past posts, and I have been slated for them.

I understand you in no way condone his actions.

That's not what this post is about.

It's about others who've expressed a sentiment that there shouldn't be custodial sentences for people who commit theft of this level.

I understand the fallout for the family, my god, how horrible for them!

But it's not excusable to do this.

Who couldn't use that sort of money?

We were looking at camping out with a 10-month-old baby in Scottish winter, fgs, not how to pay a big mortgage because our thieving husband and father was in prison!

You want to know stress?! My god, I cried filling boxes with my kids' little toys, wondering if I shouldn't just give them away.

I thought of killing myself almost daily, I felt I'd failed the children I'd been blessed with so badly they'd be better off without my sorry ass.

But to thieve not a loaf of bread or a shitty cash-in-hand cleaning job or till job in Wilko's to buy Christmas presents but fecking £20,000-£60,000?!

I hope everything works out for his family, for the sake of the children especially.

But man, that's a shedload of money.

Again, I wish them the best and I hope you've gotten lots of help here.

I know tomorrow he will likely be put in prison and hope he can rebuild life from there.

But I also hope he has to pay this back and learns from this BIG mistake.

You might find Action for Prisoners' Families can answer some of your questions on behalf of your SIL.

They've got a freephone helpline.

Your brother doesn't sound as if he's dealing with any of this very well for you to find out about his crime through another sister makes me wonder how the extended family operates and communicates. Justice will be served in the case of the brother seems to me it's his wife and children who really, really need contact and practical help, and it seems to me also that this family doesn't do contact very well. Time to pick up the phone, OP, and rack your brains about really helping the wife and children your brother will leave behind. I agree with Higgle's last post -- they will bear the brunt of the consequences for your brother's actions. Don't just throw up your hands and assume all you can do is have the children to your house for a break sometime.

Agree you need to speak to him, maybe be the person he cn say all his fears to as I'm sure he is trying to be brave for his wife. Re benefits, there are online assessemtns that can be done as well as applying online and then someone calls you back. In fact I am sure that prisoners can claim some too!

Could you get to your brothers this weekend, just be there for them and let them know they only have to ask/call.

He's lucky to have you as a sister!

I am so sorry that what I said about him not directly hurting anyone has caused offence and upset , and that I have made things worse by my comments.

I was trying to make OP feel less worried about when her brother comes out, because people are less likely to demonise him forever for what he has done than they are to demonise someone who has directly (physically and emotionally) hurt someone (eg my brother ).

Perhaps I shouldn't get involved in threads which are so close to home.

Thankyou to every one who has passed on their advice and support ( especially those with personal experience as I am beginning to see that even being related to someone who has committed a crime can lead to people judging you - although here on mumsnet I am glad to say you have been very fair and thoughtful )

Mumsnet - May-be a new topic for families of prisoners would help. The stigma makes this a difficult subject in real life and I am sure lots suffer in silence.

My brothers sentencing has been put back to October, so I will have a chance to visit him before this and have a really good chat let him know that I will still be there when he gets out as will everyone else who matters.

The ammount of money involved was an estimate by the prosecution so I dont know how in proportion that was ( I only mentioned it as I wanted to get some idea of what sentence he would get ). All that I can say about that is, there was no sign of a change in lifestyle - modest 3 bed semi, old car, no holidays, no designer wardrobe! I am as baffled by the ammount as you are but there were no clues - maybe this is something we will have to discuss.

Just a bit of a curve ball - what would someone you love have to do ( crime wise ) for you to walk away and never look back as I believe most people would behave exactly as my family have in our circumstances - I think we are quite normal in that it didnt cross our minds not to support him but I guess we would have our limits.

IT is magnificent as human beings just how we DO express our loyalties to loved ones - I've worked with people in prison and on release licences for a long time, and it is excellent ot witness just what people do for family, even whe nthey have done pretty vile stuff.
ruby - I'm not sure there are limits! IT is impossible for me to see any day when I would turn my back on dd. I see that people have to protect themselves for being damaged, but not refusing any assistance at all is not contemplatable?

also I susppect his defence barrister is looking at the possibility of a suspended sentence. I think the probation officer writing the pre-sentence report will have to be brave and disagree with the judge re necessary protection of the public stuff.

We have no contact with DH's sister and her husband (the one that went to prison) as they have no concept of morals at all. He forged DH's signiture on a loan agreement for £25K and then reneged on paying it back, needless to say the bank started proceedings on us and with the help of a great solicitor managed to get to the truth.

Sadly this has led to the break down of any relationship with DH and his father and step mother.

Before it happens to someone in your family it is easy to say you would 'lock them up and throw away the key'. I used to think I would say this about anyone who did what my brother did.

I did 'forgive' him too quickly at first because I was in denial about all the bad things he had done. The denial was because I found it too hard to face up to fully.

I now don't forgive and don't forget everything but can't bring myself to cut off all support. I still feel something that I haven't been able to 'switch off'.

Whether you stand by the person must depend on whether you feel they are sorry for what they did mustn't it? If they are making big efforts to change, like my brother, I feel that I should support him in this.

I think that if anyone does anything bad involving children I could never forgive that and would turn my back on the person. But it does worry me because I thought I wouldn't forgive someone who did what my brother did but I did at first!