Do you have close female relatives with no prospect of having children? Does this cause problems in your relationship? (sorry, long)

[MrsMerryHenry]

My DH's aunt (age 56, single, no kids) has been through a huge amount in the past 10 years or so and my DH and I have always supported her. She would have loved to have children but was unable to. When I first had DS and she first met him, I sensed a sort of 'possessiveness' over him - nothing alarming, but definitely tangible. Since then she has seen him fairly regularly, taking him out for the day from time-to-time - she always says she's doing it 'to help us out' but it's clear that she desires contact with him for herself and we're happy for her to do so. I say this to her every time, in fact.

However. A few weeks ago she tried to dump a load of heavy stuff on me, accusing me of treating her badly. It was a complete bolt out of the blue, and personality-wise I tend to be very tuned in to my and others' feelings/ behaviour so I wasn't convinced that what she was saying was true. However I gave it a great deal of time and consideration and consulted close friends on whether I fit the description she had painted (they all agreed it was utter bollocks). It's clear that she is masking her frustrations with her own life by trying to push her issues onto me - there's lots in her life that she is deeply frustrated about, and it's highly probable that she sees that those areas of my life are 'sorted' (oh, but appearances are always different from reality, aren't they?) and feels inadequate, hence making me the focus of her problems. She is doing the classic 'comparing her insides with my outsides' and finding herself wanting, but unable to make herself vulnerable to herself so that she can start to work through her problems. By the way, DH, who's been close to her all his life, agrees with my interpretation of the situation.

I have refused to take responsibility for her life problems, however I feel incredibly hurt by this episode and now find it very hard to see her - her behaviour towards me and others has shown that she's capable of misinterpreting people's behaviour and words in utterly bizarre and unreasonable ways, and so I now feel paranoid about everything I say and do around her.

She still wants to see my DS regularly (by the way, two other friends separately noted the 'possessiveness' thing in her when DS was 18mos old - so clearly my instinct when he was born was not misguided). On the one hand I am still happy for her to continue her relationship with DS, but on the other hand I feel a huge amount of hurt, as well as annoyance that she is refusing (yes, refusing - I've challenged her) to look at the real causes of her 'issues', and so this just complicates the way I feel about her relationship with my DS.

DH and I have been incredibly supportive to his aunt for many years, and on many occasions I have told her how wonderful she is and that she devalues herself - in complete contrast with the things she accused me of. It's as though she's completely ignored the years of kindness and support I've given her. I refuse to feel guilty about being able to have children, and I refuse to allow any kind of 'tug of war' situation to develop between us over my children, to whatever degree. Though I haven't yet raised the fact that I feel her childlessness is part of the problem she imagined between her and me, I feel that if I don't mention that at some point - sensitively, of course - that she will continue to see me as a focus for her inadequacies.

I just wanted to moan, actually, but would welcome your thoughts.

Drosophila - it's baffling, isn't it? How awful that you were worried for your dc's safety, though, that must have been terrifying.

Does the possessiveness thing with your ds do him any harm?

If not, I think (on scant details) I would let it go. Don't do anything to potentially jeopardise his relationship with her, especially out of hurt feelings on your part.

She's hurt, she's said her piece. You are hurt and you've tried to make your case but she's not hearing you. It's sad that your relationship might fully recover from what she's said or that she felt she needed to say it, but life is long and maybe this will have cleared the air for her even if you never understand fully what was behind her outburst.

I'm not sure even at 56 that I would have been over never having children. I suspect it would have been a lifelong sadness.

IT could be paranoia but I decided to trust it.

Re coming to terms with not having children at 56, just a thought but it's a ripe age for the menopause which can hit women hard emotionally. I remember my mum - who had also had breast cancer at that stage - making comments to me that were part envious and part grim warnings which were totally out of character which rather freaked me, as there were clear undercurrents but I couldn't interpret them, nor had I realised she had these kind of thoughts.

Fortunately for me I had my great aunt who saw my alarmed face and 'buffered' for me. I also think my mother talked to her.

Do you have a 'buffer' in your life? Someone who your aunt would confide in, giving you the chance to quietly withdraw for a little bit and get over your hurt?

Yes, same here as themoon66: my sister who is a year and a half older than I (I am 47).

Possessiveness is a new term for me to apply, thank you. Umm...check-rings a bell-she wanted to be the "go to" authority for my dc...but not physical possession.

"Just trying to help out"-ding ding. She would always buy the biggest Christmas gift for each child and cumulatively give more quantity gifts than dh & I as well. Even when I declared enough with the materialism, we are cutting back-that was just a green light to her.

Edit, edit; trying to be brief (HA! ), but it all comes back so quick.

I have ds (16) and dd1 (15) and dd2 was born Mar 08. My sister has not met my baby-18mo next week. Fwiw, she hasn't asked to meet her either.

I told her I had to take a break from the relationship and I'd let her know when I was ready to cope with her again. I don't miss her. She has always been a "her way or the highway" sort of person-so it is highway time for me. I suppose I am still dealing with a little guilt over it as I have been trained to always consider her feelings over mine. But I am recovering from that and took the bold action to stop being her doormat.

MrsMerryHenry-I would say start to set a few boundaries. I can not see that you would be under any obligation to her, to make her happy or anything else. Sounds like she could make good use of a counsellor.

"Comparing her insides with my outsides"-I have not heard that before either. That is a good way to describe the dynamic.

The possessiveness is spooky though. Is she brainwashing ds to prefer her to you?

I'm with Platesmasher-if she doesn't knock this crap off, then off she goes!

Is she just intensly lonely? Maybe buy her, or get her to buy a puppy, a companion animal? My sister finally bought a dog which helped for a while. But I don't think it is quite as fulfilling as she desired. I think that is why she "blew a head gasket" when I became pg with dd2.

I agree with skidoodle, but I would keep an eye out for further signs of paranoia on her part. Trust your instincts about things being "off" in her emotional reactions and behaviour. Its is possible that she as mental health problems that could come to affect your DS.

I have an aunt - closer in age to me than to my mum, whose sister she is - who was unable to have children and had an early hysterectomy. She had a 'special' relationship with my kids (and was even present at the birth of my youngest) that felt 'not quite right' but I didn't deal with it (guilt, obligation, pressure from my mum to keep the peace and be 'kind' ...) and boy do I wish that I had! Like others, she was way over the top generous with gifts and cash, and over the top in behaviour too. Got to the stage where she would undermine me, especially over money, in teenage years (I'd say no and kids would go to her - she lived nearby - and she'd cough up silly amounts).

My brother has a 6 year old and I can see it all happening again - presents ALL the time, never says no, way over the top in all things. I've spoken to my bro about this - he sees it too - but he's done nothing, yet, despite his discomfort.

I now have a grandchild and I am determined that she will NOT be exposed to this kind of relationship where 'the giving of stuff' seems to be a substitute for genuine care and affection and there are definite expectations about entitlement in return.

It's sad, yes, for my aunt, but not the kind of relationship I want to encourage, even passively. I frequently want to scream ITS NOT ABOUT YOU!

Sorry, a bit of a rant there, and no real advice except that it's important to think about the kind of relationships your kids have with other 'adults' including family members, and what the impact of those relationships might be on how your kids learn to experience and interpret the world.

Toomanystuffedbears... Wow.. your sister is so much like mine! All that 'just trying to help' crappola, whilst undermining me all the time.

I think it is worse when your children become teenagers, as they can so easily be 'used' by the other person. My sister took my daughter aside and said 'if you have any troubles at home, you must come and talk to me'. DD was made to feel special if she went to my sister and talked about DH and me behind our backs. She was only 14 and embroidered things to get even more sympathy from my sister. She said we argued all the time (Yeah.. like discussing what was for tea was interpretted as an arguement)

My sister would then come back to me with her pathetic, oh-so-sympathetic voice - 'oh your poor DD HAD to come to me and tell me all about your marital troubles and I got her to sob her heart out'!

Sorry... rambling post. It's all coming back to me now.

Just be careful if your DC are teenagers - they are much more vulnerable and this can used to drive wedges between you and your DH, I think that's what I'm trying to say.

Wow it is quite common. I thought nobody would understand other than my sis who has experienced similar.

MrsMerryHenry-I think the "Mother Bear Instinct" is very helpful in exercising those deamons. Looking out for our dc can be a powerful motivation, can't it?

AchingGranny-oh the "All About You". Thinking about it now, that might explain the car loads of gifts-her arrival-the event of the day. She would buy for the kids/grandkids of her friends too. I used to think it was about her needing to be needed, iykwim; but she has narcissistic tendencies, so for her, I believe it has a more psychological superiority edge to it.

Undermining, constantly. And who could protest in the face of such generosity?

Themoon66-the compairsons are something! My siter took my dd aside when she was 13 and I was pg with dd2 two summers ago and said:
"If you ever find yourself with an unwanted pregnancy, you will come to me first." Then a couple of months later she informed me that she had applied for maternity leave to come help me with the baby. (There was a clause that if parents were dead, a sibling could apply under the family leave act.) I did not respond (couldn't in the moment due to childhood role) but left it to HR to deny her request. Thankfully, they did so, twice.

Those two things broke the camel's back for me. To her, I was less than a doormat, I didn't exist at all. And I was flirting with serious depression because of it. The pg hormones brought me back to life, though, literally.

Long before, I had begun to debrief my dc about sister's views/expectations, but with her behavior about my latest pg, I had to firmly label her as toxic and they understood. Dd1 said she still would go shopping with her just to get the loot, but we know materialism isn't what a relationship should be based on.

toomanystuffedbears - the big trouble started for me when I was pregnant with DS. She came right out and said she didn't think my DS was even my DH's child.

Funny this thread should come up today... I've just got home from work to find an 18th Birthday card from her to DS - with £50 note inside! She hasn't spoken to him since he was 9. I don't know what to do now... send the money back or make him write a thank you note and leave it at that.

wow, this is too common.

I thought this was a simple circumstance, but it isn't. It is thought provoking.

Initial thought:
I would let him keep it and write a note-but not more than 3 lines.

I recieved your card.
Thanks for the money.
Thank you, also, for your thoughtfulness.

As he is an adult he can deal with her. (That's why I just wrote his thank you note for him. ) Guys are pretty good at brushing off these types of busy bodies. I think accepting once is ok though.

But then:
Perhaps this is an offered olive branch?
But it is to your ds, not you.
So-
The money can be seen as bait...so warn him of future "gifts". He is nearing an age when he might start his own family...watch out. But for a birthday card or Christmas token, could those be accepted with no strings attached? It is letting her get her toe in the door-it is tricky. Perhaps, accept it then wait and see if she ups the ante? That will kind of tip her hand.

Knowing what you know, you can set boundaries and let her know you won't tolerate hateful crap. Acknowledge undermining behavior-"that is dismissive (fill in the blank)enough" and make haste to leave her to herself. It might be enough to give her even a little bit of self-awareness.

It is so much time that she could have changed-but then she would have contacted you, not your son.

Maybe leaving it alone is the thing to do.

Oh, or: accept it, then donate it to charity in her name-and let her know that in the thank you card. Then, ds isn't beholden to her because he didn't use it for himself.

My sister is famous for putting conditions on gifts. You might get a response that if that is what he chooses to do with it, then he won't be getting any more. True colors waving proudly.

Btw, Hi MrsMerryHenry-I havn't forgotten that this is your thread . Are there any new developments with your dh's aunt?

The circumstance I was referring to was to themoon66's question about the birthday money.

Sorry, for my sloppy unedited posting-I'm a bit fatigued.

MrsMerryHenry-I doubt your ds would miss this aunt very much. Children have an uncanny radar for people who are 'strange'-deep inside he might just as well not wish to see her. You mentioned 18 months old-is that his age? Is he old enough to ask him what he thinks of aunt?

Wow, reading all your posts I feel like I really have nothing to complain about. Your relatives are so manipulative and emotionally/ mentally messed up. With DH's aunt it's more that there's a sense of desperation and subtle pressure sometimes, but nothing in your league in the slightest.

No new developments except that this evening I discussed my discomfort with DH, who, bless him, thought the whole thing had been dealt with. I certainly have to think about how to proceed in future - we want to extend our family and I simply cannot predict how DH's aunt will respond to the arrival of another child. DS is the first new child in the family since she's had to face up to her childlessness, so clearly my having children is a new hurdle for her to deal with - so, IMO, she must learn to 'deal with' it and not smokescreen it instead.

One good thing is that she has recently been making moves to take control of her life - not in terms of counselling (yes, to whoever mentnioned it, she definitely needs counselling, big-time). She's been getting herself out and about more, socialising and stuff - she lives in a remote village and has few friends, but has been going out with new people in a nearby town. I really hope that this helps her to develop a proper life of her own which is more fulfilling, and that that has a positive knock-on effect on her relationship with me and my family.

Btw the 'comparing my outsides with her outsides' is a gem, isn't it? I can't take credit for that - it came from DH.

I think I will leave things as they are at the mo but if anything comes up - either if she goes off on one again or if she behaves unreasonably, I will speak plainly about things with her. Then it's up to her to do what she pleases with that information, but I'm not prepared to let the sadnesses of her life plague the happinesses of mine.

Skidoodle - in answer to your question, when I said above that 'I'm not prepared to let the sadnesses of her life plague the happinesses of mine', I think that says it all. It's not a matter of whether there's a direct negative impact on my DS - and at the moment they have a great relationship. It's that I feel that I am being subtly (not deliberately, mind) manipulated into feeling guilty for being able to have kids, and into almost 'sharing' my mother role - it's a subtle thing but definitely there. Because of her sense of inadequacy and my 'success' in areas where her life has not gone as she wished, she has inadvertently targeted me as the subject of her frustration. I am not going to let anyone do that to me.

I felt that I should add that my other sister, who is childless also, is wonderful. She is supportive and complimentary without condescension or giving me the feeling that I've just been "inspected".

MrsMerryHenry, thank you for your line:
"I'm not prepared to let the sadness of her life plague the happiness of mine."

That is a nice thought and a strong thought. I imagine I'll get alot of mileage out of it.

Just to clarify: that wasn't a rhetorical question. I thought perhaps she was behaving in ways that you felt were damaging to your son, rather than in ways that were hurtful to you.

Neither thing good, just different problems with different solutions. First one more urgent in terms of how it would be dealt with.

Do you think any part of the guilt you are being made feel for being able to have kids comes from you rather than her?

Maybe you are particularly susceptible to subtle manipulation around this issue that other people might be completely oblivious to?

That doesn't make it OK for you to feel that way, but maybe could point you to a way out of how you are feeling.

I didn't think it was rhetorical, skidoodle.

TBH I don't feel guilty about being able to have children, not in the slightest. But I am aware that her not having dealt with her problems makes her a bit possessive and desperate in a way that nobody else is with DS. Other friends have noticed this, too. It makes our relationship more uncomfortable than it was pre-DS, and I'm not happy about it.

The answer to your question about my susceptibility to manipulation is the same as I detailed earlier: my default is to take on other people's burdens and try and help them through them. In this instance I am learning not to do this.

stuffedbears: "The possessiveness is spooky though. Is she brainwashing ds to prefer her to you?" No. Definitely not. It's just a sort of cloud that hovers over our relationship since I became a mother.