Providing help to people in distress

[MaryfromBrum]

Basic demographic statistics tell me that there must be loads of folk with 20, 30 or even 40 years of stable and happy marriage behind them who could provide valuable support to users of Mumsnet Talk. These same people could also provide a wealth of stories explaining how they coped with the various problems identified by current users of the site. The sad truth is I am not convinced that many of them would want to get involved: certainly not as anything more than lurkers.

Giving advice, certainly anything more than very general advice such as ?see a doctor?, based on only knowing half the story is clearly a very risky process. I respectfully suggest that anybody who has made their marriage work for many years would be well aware of this. Sadly it looks to me as if few posters make the effort to present a balanced review of their situation since time and again I have waded through lengthy lists of the faults of a husband without seeing any mentions of faults attributable to the wife. I suggest that experienced ?marrieds?, the very type with most to offer, will not get involved on this basis. Frankly we have more sense.

The older potential users of the site have a much lower tolerance of bad language than the younger generation and the routine use of bad language by some people giving advice will scare off exactly the type of person with most to offer. In the same way the ?all men are bastards? view of the world expounded by some posters is almost wholly counter-productive if providing support to people in distress is really own aim.

What are you still doing on this thread Mary?

Why are you not posting on all those imbalanced threads requiring your superior knowledge of marriage and life in general.

Your opening post was all about the unsuitability of advice offered by younger posters. You have no idea of the ages of any poster.

Anyone who says that there are two sides to a story IS actually saying that anyone who is suffering from abuse is equally to blame.

I suppose that two can make a marriage work if one of the partnership is prepared to put up with all sorts of things and back down all the time. This is what happens with many of the abused partners that come to mumsnet for help.

I don't really have a particular view of mumsnet, and I don't actually post very often. I just try to help where I can.

I think you have to come to this site with an open heart and just try your best.

As it happens I have always been very very careful to say 'partner' rather than 'man' as I have a very, very good friend who happens to be a man and who has suffered terribly, along with his children , at the hands of his personality disordered wife.

Presumably if he had stayed in his marriage then that marriage would have been 'working'?

I am bowing out of this thread now as I think it is unpleasant. And i think it was started in order to be unpleasant.

If you think you can offer so much better advice than anyone of the frankly fantastic women and men who post regularly on this site with their amazing wisdom then just get on with it.

Mary, your initial premise is utterly wrong.

Older posters such as myself are just as likely to say "cut your losses and run, he is a total nutter", but are able to back up our arguments for doing so. We have the benefit of hindsight and personal experience and are able to differentiate between a fixable short-term marital difficulty and a relationship which is fundamentally dysfunctional or abusive.

Si jeunesse savait, si vieillesse pouvait.

Older forum members are most certainly not put off giving advice by swearing or "all men are bastards" posts. The only bar to older posters contributing more frequently is a demographic one. Younger people are simply far more likely to use online communities and social networks than women of 45+ and are much more likely to be at home with small children and therefore able to access the internet at frequent intervals throughought the day.

A word to the wise. If you are going to criticise the quality of advice offered here, then do your research properly. Don't cherry-pick what you read. This is a very large and fast-moving online community with a high volume of posts.

There are many long running discussions on this forum offering support to women in long term relationships who are currently coping with the aftermath of affairs, or who have partners with mental or other chronic illnesses or suffering from substance abuse or who are grieving the loss of a child. They get help and advice from the many forum members who have managed to work through similar issues and keep their relationships intact.

.

mary, are you living in an extended family by any chance ?

Anyways, whatever the heck your point is, I would like you to come back and answer me here

Just caught this thread and might return to it later BUT just want to pick up on a couple of things. I had 12 years in an abusive relationship, from being 19 - 31, and in response to GettingAGrip, I can say, hand on heart, that I do have to take some responsibility for the way the relationship worked over a long period of time. This does not mean that I was responsible for the abuse I experienced BUT I was responsible for the way I dealt with it and, ultimately, for behaving in ways that allowed the situation to continue until it became a pattern of relating and behaving that held us all, as a family, in a gridlocked nightmare.

However, to someone in the throws of distress, this is not likely to be a useful message, and I appreciate that many of you will find it provocative or uncomfortable.

Excellent post GrannyAching

I find the debating techniques and viewpoints of some of the people who have posted to this thread deeply disheartening. Not because they disagree with me but for their (stated) reasons for doing so.

If somebody has a serious legal or medical problem I would hope that virtually all of us would suggest that they take expert advice. If such advice was taken you can be confident that the qualified and experienced source of the expert advice would hope and expect that an accurate, full and truthful account of the clients? problems was on offer. It is not just co-incidence that within most professions experience comes with a financial premium attached. If your child needs brain surgery do you opt for a first week medical student, a new qualified surgeon or the senior consultant who has carried out similar proceedures many times in the past. We all the know the answer. Experience matters.

Asking untrained (in formal training terms at least) amateurs to diagnose complex issues based on incomplete information is hazardess enough without compounding the problem by denying the value of the fullest possible information disclosure and minimising the value of experience. Yet this is eactly what some posters to this thread seem to be proposing!?

This doesn?t mean that the efforts of the posters to the groups are without value but we do need to look at ways of maximising this. It is simply an exercise in face saving and/or denial to dispute that the vast majority of the threads orginate from ladies, the vast majority of replies are from ladies and that a good proportion of the threads contain an anti-male slant that would, I suspect, outrage us if replicated with the genders reversed!

So what am I proposing? How can we encourage wider participation in the groups and in particular is there anything we can do to make the public face of Mumsnet more gender and age neutral? Is ?any advice? always better than ?no advice? and if it is should the ?any advice? contain a blanket suggestion that in most case free expert advice available elesewhere might be the best way to proceed?

As a final thought why did gettingagrip have to misrepresent what I said? Where, exactly did I say ?that a younger person's views are rubbish?. The answer is nowhere. Where, exactly did I say ?the abused is equally to blame?. The answer is nowhere. Similarly gettingagrip chose to dispute that ?there are two sides to every story? - as if denying this fact in the heat of debate makes her implied claim ?there are NOT two sides to every story? a valid proposition.

People can get far better advice from here when it comes to issues over contact with children (after break-ups) and court orders than from some solicitors. It doesn't always follow that professional advice is better.

OP are you saying that most of the advice on here is poor or not valid? Well why not challenge it directly on the thread (as most posters do if they disagree with the advice given)?

As Shineon says anything posted on here can for the most part only be subjective really, and short of having a Big Brother-style camera trained on every MNer (and their family and friends) 24/7 I'm not sure how you could see the 'full picture' of
anyone's life and experiences.

What a strange thread.

quote MaryfromBrumAsking untrained (in formal training terms at least) amateurs to diagnose complex issues based on incomplete information is hazardess >>

Mary I don't think this happens. I don't think people post on here to get definitive professional advice and guidance or a diagnosis. I think people post on here first and foremost to get their troubles off their chest. I think you are underestimating the intelligence of the vast majority of posters with that assertion.

I have seen some amazing, generous and supportive things happen on mumsnet. All done for and by people who have never met each other. As I said before, this place is what it is, it has worked for lots of people for a long time. If you haven't seen that and you think that this is a dangerous place then I think the best course of action is for you to find another forum that ticks all your boxes - good luck with that.

Not really sure what MFB is getting at tbh. Do you think that posters who have a long happy marriage and no experience of things such as dv, being a lone parent, etc are really better placed to advise on these matters than those who have worked through it.

Im afraid if thats the case, I have to strongly disagree. I am now in a happy, fairly long marriage but have been the victim of dv and as a subsequence was a lone parent but have ended up happy and well-balanced. Surely if I post advice, an OP can say "well, it worked for her maybe I should give that a try" rather than "she doesnt understand how I feel".

MaryfromBrum - I'm an older poster. I'm 46, old enough to have been married for, ooh, nearly 30 years..... But I haven't. I've been married and divorced. After that interlude in my early 30's, I met my 12 year old son's Dad - who died when my son was 6. We'd split when my son was 2. I then had a relationship with someone who was an alcoholic. After that relationship ended, I met the love of my life, when I was 43. We decided we wanted to get married 6 weeks after meeting. Wedding all organised for end of August 2007. I fell pregnant at the end of February 2007. My second child, my fiancee's first. Both of us and my son were over the moon. On 1st August 2007, my OH collapsed with a brain haemorrhage and died a week later. The morning he died, I was on the phone to the Register Office cancelling our wedding. Fast forward 3 months and at the end of October, I'm in hospital on my own having an emergency c-section. Our daughter is now nearly 20 months old. I've done pretty much everything ON MY OWN - the night feeds, the crying, the school runs, the coping with the devastation that my OH's death has caused me and my son.

Now, would you like to tell me that I'm not qualified to give a balanced reply to people who post on these threads who are in trouble. If you'd like to read any of the threads I've posted on, you'll see that despite my not having had a long and happy marriage, that it hasn't made me a total fuckwit who doesn't know what's what.

My Mum is in her 60's, was married to my Dad for 40 years and has been through some very tough times (not through DV or anything, but serious illness). I draw on what she's been through to give measured replies to what people post on these boards.

Your comments may have some validity, but you are as guilty of generalisation as the people you appear to be pointing the finger at.

Oh Lemony thats so sad.

And demonstrated my thoughts probably more articulately that I did myself.

Maybe speaking out of line, but as a guy I'd make (if I may) two points.

MN seems to be a very valuable support network from women who're having all manner of troubles, from conceiving, to difficult babies, to troublesome teenagers, to cheating partners, to having the crap beaten out of them on a regular basis. On many of these, there are no right or wrong answers (unlike, for example, statutory maternity rights). As a support network, its incredible value is in providing, well, support - a sounding board, reassurance, comfort that they're not alone. That these things have happened to them or people they know and that they've got through it and there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Part of this is sympathising with their view, even it's unreasonable, in the same way that a friend would (e.g. "yes, I agree, he is a bastard" even if they don't really know or even agree). This doesn't reflect anything about the posters but rather the way people work.

On the other hand, because it's an internet community rather than a real life individual it means that (a) the support and views expressed tends to be much more direct, outspoken and fervent than it would be in real life, check Guardian CIF as a great example of this and (b) strength of views seems to increase rapidly down certain paths with the number of posts, e.g. a guy who's gone to a lap dance club changes from the opening posts of being out of line, to being a pervert, to being someone who should be divorced, to someone who should should be kicked out immediately. This is, I'd say, unhelpful as it doesn't reflect real life which generally leads to more considered opinions over time. Again this doesn't, to my mind, reflect anything about the posters themselves but rather the way that internet communities work.

I suspect the difficulty is that people seeking advice may find it hard to differentiate between the two ways in which views are being expressed, especially when faced with a large volume of posts (I know I certainly would).

OP you are talking bollocks. This is an open internet forum, people from all walks of life are welcome to post here.
Most give advice based on a mixture of experience and good intention.
However, any poster should be astute enough to realise that an internet forum is all this place is. You cannot see anyone, you cannot check their credentials before taking advice, the responsibility lies with the poster to make their own decisions about what advice they follow.

As for critiscising debating techniques, don't be so fucking pompous. I don't expect to have my posts marked out of ten for their quality, i post because i like it here and there are valuable resources available.
I don't give two shits whether or not other posters consider me to be a "good writer" or and "intelligent debater".
Mumsnet isn't a competition.

I would think that someone who has been in a long marriage ie my parents who have been married for 50 years are somewhat closeted and have little or no experience of life's traumas.

JMO

Well, if 46 is an older poster, I am a MUCH older poster- and I'd like to give my views once more- and finally.

Yesterday, I signed out of MN for good- hence having to re-register with name almost like the last one.

The reason I signed out? Well, mainly because it was starting to take up too much of my time, but also because I feel I am "too old" for it.

I agree with you Mary to an extent, in that so many responses are a knee-jerk reaction from women ( and men) who have a lot of baggage and who have, sadly often been hurt by men.

The responses are often exaggerated- as described by cestlavie and impractical (kick him/her out being the most common.)

In many instances, the advice is completely one-sided when it comes to affairs etc. Without going into that too deeply, there are instances when there is one "innocent party" but there are also occasions when both partners are to "blame" by possibly allowing a marriage to become stale, or being too busy for each other, and a whole host of other reasons etc etc. BUT you will never hear the whole story.
Similarly with abuse, as brought up by GAG and GA - there are occasions where the abuser has "played their part", even if it was unintentional.

(I am "lucky" enough to have worked with couples in distress and what you hear from one is often very different from what you will hear from the other!)

I agree with Mary to an extent- I somehow imagine that the average age of a MN is about 35-ish. I am a lot older than that and often when I read advice, i think "yes, that's what I would have said at her time of life" but now, almost a couple of decades on, I feel I have a different perspetive. Consequently, my posts are often disagreed with.

I agree that age is not necessarily linked to experience, but you have to generalise at some point,- and generally it is.

The reason I am leaving MN is because I feel that my views are often not what MN want to hear- and that often comes down to me having a different perspective, which I do credit to age and experience, and not seeing the world inquite such black and white terms as idi when I was younger.

I posted a while back about an interview with the Duchess of Devonshire, a very wise 89 yr old, who has a very relaxed attitude to affaris, saying that if people are to remain interesting, they have to be allowed a life of their own outside of marriage. I have read very similar views by Dr Stuttaford a well know retired dr of 79, who used towrite for the Times, as he believed that affairs were not always wrong and could often save a marriage if they were discreet.

Tje reason I am mentioning these people is that they are old, educated, and have seen an awful lot of life and death- yet they would be flamed on MN!

I agree that MN can offer support in purely practical matters, and for some people in distress some of the time, but I also believe that many posters ( and I include mylelf here) end up more confused than ever as the "advice" can be contradictory and often comes from people who talk purely from their own limited and/or hurtful experiences.

Finally, as an "oldie" I am leaving MN because the majority of opinions do not fit with mine, and because I need to get on with my work!

howtotellmums I am about your age but still find mumsnet a great place.

I prob have similar views to you on affairs but don't tend to think my views are particularly age related tbh.

And I don't bother to post on such threads because I feel they can sometimes paint the BS as whiter than white and the AP as the devil incarnate.

I do believe that people who hold entrenched views and don't see shades of grey use these views as a comfort blanket because they fear the grey area.

What I'm not looking for though is some sort of payback or reward for posting. I might give my opinion on some threads but try to remain detached because it is after all not RL but an internet forum. Not suggesting you post for that reason of course.

I still feel it's valuable forum and alot of people get alot out of it.

PS I also think that many MN tend to be rather conventional and sometimes even old fashioned views on marriage etc despite their age

LITC*- before I sign out just to say yes, I agree 100% with what you have posted. MN is terribly "Daily Mail" in terms of relationships.

Typical - I just start to notice a poster who's posts and views appeal to me and she's fecking off!

I think that you can find a whole range of opinions on all sorts of topics. There is not one definitive "Mumsnet reponse" to anything. Even on a thread where the majority think one thing, there will pretty much always be someone else who offers an insight that no-one else has yet come up with.

That is what I love about MN as opposed to RL because no-one knows you really here, no-one will hold back an opinion that might offend you because they are worried that if they do, the next time they see you in Tesco/at school you will snub them. That is why some of the language is a bit.. scatalogical at times.

I think there is a place for everyone here.

Readers might care to compare and contrast the recent postings made by howtotellmums and that made by idranktheteaatwork.

One calm, measured and reasoned and the other? A poster seemingly with zero tolerance of any viewpoint that differs from her own and one, I suspect, whose postings would seriously inhibit some (many?) readers from posting. Why post an alternative view if you are going to be sworn at?

Before I post, I'll just give my demographic info FYI- I'm a 30yo woman, married 8 years with a DD of (almost) 4yo.

Peer support is one of the best forms of support available. Mostly because the person looking for support understands that those offering it have "been there, done that" and "get" where they are coming from. This is the role of MN, IMO.

Age has a limited role to play in this. Broadly generalising, older posters probably will have more perspective on some topics and could play a useful part in mentoring younger posters with their collective wisdom, this I agree with to an extent. Within that, the older posters who wish to do this need to understand the way internet communities work, and this misunderstanding is where your objections spring from MFB.

Internet forums are anonymous. Anonymity is an interesting force in social psychology, it generally produces more honesty and more agression. This accounts for the expression of extreme attitudes, and the swearing you are unhappy with. I don't think the extreme attitudes or swearing are something that are the exclusive domain of younger posters, just anonymous posters.

You say- "it looks to me as if few posters make the effort to present a balanced review of their situation". You are expecting too much of the medium if you expect everyone answering posts to carefully evaluate and balance their response. MN is a chaotic, diverse and vociferous free for all, and the best way to read it is to understand that. Don't look for balanced posts, look for balanced threads and I think you will be much more satisfied with what you see.

Groupthink is an issue with MN, and I think that is responsible for a lot of the threads with sexist "all men are bastards" attitudes. I don't subscribe to your opinion that this groupthink is something that those who have been married longer are immune to.

The power of the group to coerce conformity is something only the most individualistic, strong minded and stubborn people are able to resist, whatever the demographic. What we need to prevent this happening are more people willing to speak up if they think things are degenerating in a thread. You say that this demographic of women who have been married longer "have more sense" than to get involved in such threads, but they are exactly the people who need to speak up. If only to make sure there is a balance of advice and opinions.

You need not get "involved" in such debates, simply post your opinion and walk away from the thread.

It is my opinion that whilst older posters may well have some nuggets of wisdom to impart, the experience of younger posters should not be dismissed as trivial. I found that when my I was pregnant, and when DD was a baby MN was a lifesaver for advice because the older generation did things differently and had simply forgotten how very difficult it is to be a new mum.

I have yet to see a thread on relationships where no-one has suggested the OP get professional help when it was needed, usually in tandem with the usual MN peer support and suggestions of what to do. I think that as long as that advice to seek professional help is given, the supplementary suggestions should be considered as nothing more than the sort of help a friend or aquaintance would offer IRL, to be ignored or followed suiting the OP's deliberation.

So Mary, you are basically saying MN needs more older women, older women give better advice than younger women, but they don't post because younger women swear too much and put all the blame for problems in relationships on men.

Well, some older women swear a lot and some younger women swear a lot.

Some older women have an 'all men are bastards' attitude and some younger women do too.

Some younger women have had more varied or intense life experiences than other women and some older women have had more experiences than other women.

There are some older women who have had limited experiences despite being older.

Don't you think you are being ageist? Can you prove that older women are more likely to have had more varied experiences? For example, being with the same man for years and years with no problems isn't a life of varied experiences to draw from to give advice.

I don't think it is about age, it is about what experiences you've had which you have learnt from, or knowledge from your education/job, or what you have learnt from the experiences of people around you.

The tone of your post is that you think your advice is better than most people's - so what do you feel qualifies you to give good advice?