Our 6th visit to the Stately Home.....

[oneplusone]

Hi all, took the liberty of starting a new thread. Keep on posting!

spiky, I'm sure you didn't mean to but I feel you have been judgemental about OSAHM's decision to stay in touch with her brother. I for one completely trust and respect her decision as being the right thing to do for her, and I think the situation is nowhere near as black and white as you may think as you may now realise having read OSAHM's posts explaining her decision. But on this thread, i don't think any of us should feel we have to explain our decisions, only we know what we went through and how we feel and only we know what is the right thing to do for us. It is only when you have walked at least a mile in OSAHM's shoes that you could possibly say what you would do if you were in her situation.

I am sorry if my post offends you, i don't mean to offend, but i could not read your post and not respond.

It's ok, I didn't feel offended. It might have seemed like I was explaining myself at length out of defensiveness but it really helps me to do this to get it straight in my head why I am doing what I'm doing and to review whether I still think I am 'right' about things and whether I still feel the same about things. I think people may be a bit afraid to comment about my brother's crimes because they are 'taboo', and they don't want anyone to think they've said the 'wrong thing' but I find it useful to know what people think and I want to know.

I know that society will condemn him forever for what he has done, whatever amends he tries to make, and I need to get used to that and support him in getting used to that also. Society is right to condemn something so wrong and it is healthy to condemn it. I'm not going to get angry at people's reactions. Before it happened to someone in my life I would have said 'lock them up and throw away the key'. Now I don't find it as easy to say that. I'm thinking that religious thing - "Love the sinner, hate the sin".

When he is released I'm going to have a similar type of relationship with him as I do now - writing, phone calls, visiting on my own and not involving DH and the kids, not in the short term anyway until we can be sure that he is coping with being out and is stable and has really changed. I won't take even the slightest risk of involving the children with someone who might be any sort of risk to them. I don't believe he would be, but I don't even want them being confused/upset by anything we end up having to explain to them about him. I also don't want to risk getting so involved with supporting him that it takes much attention away from DH and the kids who are my first priority.

OSAHM, knowing what i do now, having processed loads of my own stuff and learnt so much along the way and having grown so much as a person, I am also of the opinion now that it is a person's behaviour that may be good or bad, not the person himself.

Before, i was fairly ignorant about what really causes behaviour that is harmful to others and generally unacceptable within society. But i have learnt so much in the last 3 years or so, and realise there is always a complex web of reasons behind why a person such as your brother committed the crimes that he did. I think he is lucky to have an enlightened sister like you who is willing and able to understand him rather than judging him. That does not mean to say what he did was ok, his behaviour was not ok. But perhaps his behaviour was the only way he knew how to express and process/release the powerful feelings caused in him by the damage that had been done to him since he was a child. That is a very simplistic explanation I know, but i think it's true.

And ultimately knowing and understanding the reasons behind why a person commits such crimes is the only way they can possibly be helped/rehabilitated. Locking them up and throwing away the key is a reaction based on ignorance and a lack of understanding about how a person's experiences can lead to unwanted behaviour. Of course not everyone who had a difficult childhood goes on to commit crime, we all find various different ways to express our pent up feelings from childhood, crime being only one particular route, others being drugs, alcohol which essentially suppress the unwanted difficult feelings. In my case i did not express my pent up feelings outwardly at all, i kept them locked up inside, but they found an outlet via my skin through my eczema.

OSAHM - I'm v. glad to hear you weren't offended because I wouldn't want to offend you and I really wasn't being judgemental about you. Or rather, I was, but in a positive way: when I said that you must be brave and compassionate, I meant it as a compliment. I think you have an enlightened view, and what I was was saying in shorthand is that you are more compassionate than I think I may be in that situation. Also, your post about your brother came on the heels of our discussion about my relationship with my brother, with people including you saying whether they could accept not being believed (which is too simplistic a word, but it'll do) or not. So I was thinking to myself how we - naturally - all have different boundaries.

I did see your posts and TRSmithfields earlier today, but could read and not post due to holding a baby. After going out to pick up my eldest dc from school, I was thinking about your posts and wondered, as you were explaining your decision at length, whether I'd offended you by saying how I'd react and whether you felt defensive. I was going to come back on here and say I hope I wasn't intentionally offensive. I certainly did not think that it was a black and white situation - I could understand even before you wrote your explanation why you are in touch with him. I was simply pondering loud about what I'd do in that situation with my brother. And there's the difference. Because, as I thought to myself on the school run, if I found out my brother committed sex crimes, it would be so supposedly out of character, and would have meant a lot of secrecy and my brother 'hiding' parts of his personality. The betrayal of trust would be the hardest thing - thinking you knew someone as a person as good and honest, but finding out that they did things that are neither.

Your situation is completely different though, because from what I understand, you could already see in your brother the darker aspects of his personality and had firsthand experienced his violence. I guess (and tell me if I'm wrong!) that it must have been like seeing a train go off the rails and know that there would be a horrific crash at some point. And - the analogy falls down a bit here! - I suspect there may have been some relief in a way when the crash happened. It meant that your brother had crashed, had gone as low as he could, and would now get the help he needed and the containment he needed, and the only possible way was now up.

I also completely relate to why you have your brother in your life now because there is a parallel with my relationship with my mother. Being in contact has meant that you have been able to have difficult conversations with your brother about what he did to you, and to talk through family stuff. I know how healing that can be. And I also know how healing and mature it can be to form a new, albeit limited, relationship with someone who was destructive to you in the past. It means that you taken the reigns, got some control and can move forward.

But conversely, I can understand why some people don't want contact with their parents or other relative. As Smithfield said, it is down to the individual and the individual circs.

I know that some people can't understand why I have my mother in my life. Sometimes I can't understand it! I can never forgive her for being brutal and cruel towards someone who's role it was to protect. It is and will always be a complicated relationship. But like with your brother, I have very strict boundaries. My mother sees my dc but I doubt I will ever let her look after them or be completely alone with them.

I hope that all of that makes sense and doesn't come across as clumsily as I fear it might.

wtsa - No, I'm not offended. Slightly frustrated though, as I felt you took a very simplistic view of things and completely missed me praising OSAHM. And really, as the relative of an offender of serious crimes, of course it would have crossed OSAHM's mind to wonder what other people think of her seeing her brother. Doesn't mean she should care or take notice - she shouldn't! - but to wonder goes with the (extremely difficult) territory. Also, I can't help but wonder whether you felt I was being judgemental about your sisters and wanted me to get back in my box, but found it easier to make your point through OSAHM's situation. Just a thought - feel free to ignore.

Smithfield - I'm not ignoring your thoughtful post and your question to me, but I have to go and do something. I will be back later.

I never considered that by writing about the possibility of people judging me and then writing so much about why I do what I do, that I would give the impression of being defensive and give the impression that I had been offended. I'm sorry. I really wasn't offended at all and was just wondering out loud about things and drivelling on without censoring my thoughts as I wrote them. I should be more careful. I don't want to cause anyone to worry because of what I've written. Everything is fine

I was actually grateful for the opportunity to go on about it all Most times when I write, more stuff makes more sense to me, and when I finished writing that post I felt really good because I felt that I am really getting somewhere with feeling ok with the way I'm doing things after feeling so conflicted about it previously.

After the initial trauma, yes, I think there has been some relief. It shocked us both into finally taking our issues seriously and getting them sorted. We are both more mentally healthy than we have ever been at the moment!

Oh now you see Im worrying about offending people;

'I dont think it is anybody elses business but your own as to wether you keep in touch with your bro or cut him off'

That wasnt directed at anyone but when I just re-read it I thought it sounded like it might be.

I didnt think you were offended osahm I could see you were trying to get it straight in your head, but just thought Id put my two pence in anyway .

Haha TRS

I knew you were talking about just people in general, nobody specifically on here.

What we say to each other on this thread is really tame compared to the bitching that goes on, on some threads!

HahahahaHA! Just as I've written that, I've read another thread where people are telling each other to "Fuck off" and one person said of the others on that thread "You're all fucking bitches"! It has really made me laugh! Maybe it shouldn't, but it did

glad that everything is cool

FWIW, I did wonder for a minute upon first reading of afternoon posts whether Smithfield meant me with her no one's business line, and whether OSAHM felt defensive in response to my comments. But then I rationalised those thoughts as they were knee-jerk emotional reaction. Told myself that OSAHM was clearly musing in helpful fashion over question she must have asked herself before, and Smithfield gave reasonable and correct answer to that question by saying no one else's business.

Then WTSA came along and had me wondering whether I really had offended everyone after all. Cheers for that Have to say, WTSA, that I'm a bit pissed off, actually. Because I do suspect you were making your own point under cover of sticking up for OSAHM.

SpikySauce, at this point I feel compelled to intervene and say that I am more than a bit pissed off with the way you have been talking to WTSA. Yss, she probably was trying to make her own point in a roundabout way - and she has very, very good reason to, because your attitude to her has been bullying and deeply disrespectful for some time now. I have read the posts with increasing worry, about this situation and about the safety of the thread overall. You initiated the whole thing when you first referred to her behaviour wrt her sisters as unfair and lacking in maturity. That is not helpful advice or insights, that is unprovoked and unfounded judgement and criticism - ie bullying. And it has escalated from there. You seem to have an agenda to prove your own rightness by making WTSA wrong.

I have never seen anyone talking to anyone else like this in the time I have been on the thread; till now it has been a place of refuge where anyone who had been hurt by their families could pour out their feelings, vent, share experiences and say what can't normally be said in everyday RL, without fear of censure or judgement or people responding with the kind of stuff you get in some of the AIBU threads, for example. The replies, when there have been replies, have always been supportive, empathetic, compassionate, and often based on identification. Through her posts - and she has been on this thread quite a while longer than me, I think - WTSA has helped build a special online community, a safe place, and has offered support and reassurance to many. She has done nothing to deserve this kind of attack, quite the opposite - she deserves respect and support for what she has been through and what she is dealing with. There are many different ways of showing courage and strength, and WTSA does not lack either.

You are obviously entitled to use whatever coping strategies you need to deal with your own circumstances, as long as they don't impact negatively on others. So that does not include making yourself feel better by belittling others, which I feel you have done consistently with WTSA.

I would never normally speak out against another poster like this, or not wrt to things they shared about themselves and their own experience, and I am only doing it now because this is bullying afaic, and bullying isn't - or shouldn't be - acceptable on this thread. Whatever is going on is NOT about WTSA, it is about you, it is your crap and you are dumping it on her.

So she responded indirectly and you're pissed off about that? So you make the rules about what is and isn't an appropriate way to respond, do you? After yourself breaking the unspoken rules adnered to by everybody else on the thread? Yet another sign of a bully. FYI, if someone has a history of being severely bullied, and then that person is bullied again in yet another context where they had the right to feel safe and respected and protected to a degree, then of course it is hard for that person to respond confidently and directly. It is destabilising and potentially devastating, and I am sure the last while has been very hard for WTSA, and she has possibly felt very isolated, and abandoned once again.

WTSA, I am really sorry you've been the target of this attack, and you have my suppport.

Thats the problem at times with this format it is difficult to know what is the tone or the mood of the person writing it.

I had written my response to OSAHM tapping with one finger and with two stir crazy dc's. It was only after I re-read it that I realised (in light of the later posts) it may have sounded as though I had directed it at you.

spiky I just wanted to say that I have not found anything you have said offensive in any way. In fact I find what you say very helpful and thought provoking.

So please stick around

Ok so now I have cross posted with you bop and I have just read your post.

So I can see what you are saying Bop and I agree to some extent.

spiky I think the initial posting did come accross as judgmetal and bop is correct in what she says that this has been a santuary for people to write down their thoughts without feeling judged in any way shape or form. They get enough of that in RL.

It simply couldnt work othwerwise.

I think there has been a lot of misunderstanding and misreading of intentions and we should perhaps all move on from this now?

Bop, thank you for your post. You are right, i have felt attacked, judged and criticised by spiky and i am grateful to you for noticing and commenting. And i have felt quite wary about responding directly to spiky as i didn't want this thread to descend into a slanging match like so many other threads on MN. And because things can come across differently in writing as opposed to talking in person i was willing to give her the benefit of the doubt. But my gut feeling has been that she is a bully who has decided to target me for reasons probably unknown to her and I feel she has almost been deliberately trying to provoke me into an argument with her.

Spiky, you seem to think you are 'sorted' but i think you have a lot of unresolved issues which you need to address. Perhaps my posts have triggered you without you realising it and it is obvious you are dumping your rubbish on me via this thread. Doing this may temporarily make you feel good about yourself but will never solve your problems in the long run. I won't be reading or responding to your posts in future.

OK. Where to start?

I do agree that my first post(s) to wtsa was judgmental and I'm sorry if that is against the ethos of this thread. As I said earlier, I had first seen wtsa on a different thread that she'd started - which I didn't reply to - where at least one person was being somewhat judgemental (in a good way) and telling her to take some personal responsibility in her relationship with her sisters.

That thread mentioned this thread, which I'd seen around before. I wanted to join. But tbh, I was frustrated by wtsa's posts for similar reasons that was picked up in the first thread. FWIW, I didn't feel this way about anyone else's. I do get (probably irriationally) annoyed when I feel people are seeing themselves as victims and blameless in ALL their adult relationships and aren't, IMO, appreciating their part in that dynamic and seeing how they themselves are unwittingly repeating past patterns. I feel it is far too easy to say that it is always the other person with the problem or who is 'bad'. But I fully accept that this is my issue, and what I should have done is to not respond to wtsa at all.

However, I was actually trying to be constructive and help her. The most recent therapy I had, which ended last year, was group therapy. Now, that was tough. But oh so helpful. People do pull you up on things, and are encouraged to suggest new ways in which the others can relate to people. You do get a mirror held up to yourself. FWIW again, it was never suggested that I was a bully. I am direct, and I know that my typing style can be even more so. But that is the nature of the internet, and it's also very much the nature of MN, on which this thread is on. So that is the context in which I came to this thread - I thought it would be OK to give direct feedback in terms of how someone is relating to others. I genuinely didn't realise that you don't do that on this thread. In all honesty, I would never respond to someone in a way that I couldn't accept myself. I appreciate direct feedback, even when it's calling me a bully.

So yes, I did feel pissed off because I'd much rather someone tell me they feel I was being judgmental of them. I can take it. I saw wtsa's way of doing it as being passive aggressive, and I was annoyed because she was speaking on behalf of someone else who didn't have a problem. When I said I felt pissed off, I was also being light-hearted. I do not accept that I was trying to make the rules on this thread or was being a bully. I do not accept that I am a bully. I was saying what I felt about feeling pissed off in a direct, very MN, way.

I don't think I'm completely sorted. I know I am much more sorted than I was. I have had quite a bit of therapy, received lots of feedback, and I know that it worked and that I have healthy(ish!) and enduring relationships at the moment.

I will end by saying that I do feel I have unjustly been called a bully, but hey, I can deal with it. I apologise for misunderstand and breaching the tone of this particular thread and I will not do it again.

I really want to apologise for the parts of this 'heatedness' which are my fault. I don't like the thought of any of you feeling upset. I hope all of you stay on this thread and that this is just a temporary blip. We've all dealt with far worse than this, so we are surely strong/wise enough to get through this. I think you are all great and I want you all to stay. We all have imperfections (eg. my posts are mostly too long!)

I'm still reading Buddhism for Mothers and it said something about observing everyhing in the moment and observing your own thoughts as though you are separate from them etc, as the way to help you live in the moment instead of being preoccupied with the past or the future.

Well I've been experimenting with trying to do these things and it helped me with my anxiety that DD might bully DS and history might be repeated how it was between me and my brother. This fear is inside me and my preoccupation with thoughts from the past, which the book doesn't 'agree' with.

I stopped and realised that the thoughts may not be actually true for what is happening right now and thought about observing what is actually happening right now and whether both children look like they are happy or how they look like they are feeling. I thought, if DS looks like he is happy with how DD is being then that is ok. So I looked, in an observing way, and both children looked fine, and I realised I didn't need to tell DD to stop doing what she was doing just because of my anxiety about what she might do next.

Just wrote that in case anyone else finds it useful, although I don't explain it as clearly as the book does.

On the same subject of books to help with parenting.

Im thinking about reading the 'continuum concept'. Has anyone read that?

I just feel I need some better strategies for dealing with both dc's. Well mainly ds actually.
It is hard because I feel like motherhood is hard enough, but I would assume a lot of people would learn ways of dealing with their children through the example of their own mother and their own childhood experience.
Of course i cant do that, so I often feel as though I'm walking in a minefield without a map.
Something I read recently which links to the continuum concept is that parents (especially if they are insecure or low on confidence) can end up too 'child centred', which is a nice way of saying they try too hard and so the child ends up controlling the parent.
The child feels anxious to know 'who' is in charge and so will push and push until someone takes charge. This makes (or can make) a child come accross as demanding, or out of control.
I wonder if this has happened with ds. I sometimes 'do' feel controlled by him and his needs. I thought that I was projecting those feelings on to him and that I was a crap mother for not being able to bare his demandingness and meet it with nothing but love. Maybe Im not projecting maybe he 'is' genuinley demanding but as a result of my behaviour.
The more I try and meet his needs the more demanding he becomes and then I become more and more frustrated.
I think it could be perhaps normal that someone like myself with my upbringing might try 'too' hard to constantly make their child happy and try hard to bat away any frustrations they may feel because of the fear that they will feel anything remotely as I myself have felt.
My biggest fear is that my dc's should 'ever' feel rejected or abandoned by me.
Really though am I trying to meet my own needs by needing to 'feel' they love me at all times.
When dd came along it became too difficult for me to continue to meet and anticipate 'all' of ds's needs 'all' of the time becaue I had another child to deal with. This is when ds and my relationship became particularly difficult. Not only that but I see that dd is 'less' demanding than ds and being the second child I have 'never' been able to focus on meeting her needs the way I did with ds.
I guess what Im thinking is I am doing ds a diservice by not setting firmer boundaries. The continuum concept's theory is that battles that we have with small children is mostly due to their anxiety at needing to feel reassured that the parent 'knows' what they are doing and is in complete control.
This does make a lot of sense to me.

Thank you for that TRS because for some reason I found that really reassuring.

The way you have described it is exactly what I think happened with my two. When someone else describes it similarly it makes me think I was right. Not that I wish the same difficulties I've had on other people.

I do think it is like you said, that with our first babies we were so determined to do things 'oppositely' to our parents and not make the same mistakes that maybe we went too far the other way! I couldn't bear it if my DD cried for a second! I jumped up and did everything I could to sort it. I got really good at anticipating her needs and providing what she wanted before she had a chance to cry! I couldn't bear the thought of her feeling rejected or ignored either so I talked and talked to her constantly and kept her entertained. She got used to all this and grew into a demanding child whose demands I found really hard work the older she got!

When I had DS, like you said, I wasn't physically able to keep this up as there wasn't time and I wasn't superwoman! He had to wait a bit longer to have his needs met. Is it a coincidence that he has grown into a less demanding more self sufficient, more laid back child? I too started to find my DDs demands really difficult when I had DS to look after as well and started to get bad tempered with her.

I can see the logic of children playing up if they don't feel the parents are confident because they want reassurance that the parents will take control of the situation and that they actually are in control. I didn't realise that was part of the Continuum Concept though. I thought the Continuum Concept was all about giving the child 100% attention and keeping them strapped to your body at all times as babies. It sounds like there may be more to it than that though?

I guess we learned what not to do from our parents and what negative effects some behaviours have, so we know to watch out for them. The thing I use as my guidance often is to think, is the way I'm teaching them to behave going to help them get along in the real world when they become adults so that they can live happily and without making the people around them unhappy?

Eg, a very small example, I read in one parenting book that you shouldn't rush your children to get ready for school in the morning and mustn't make them feel they must go to school, but encourage them to question authority and do things their own way. I personally, did not agree with this. I thought, it is in their interests to get and keep a job when they are adults so that they will earn enough money to live comfortably. If they can't discipline themselves to bother turning up to work or to get a move on and get there on time they are likely to lose their job.

I thought the Continuum Concept was all about giving the child 100% attention and keeping them strapped to your body at all times as babies. It sounds like there may be more to it than that though?

Yes, this is what i thought too. And it is, but the idea is the children come along with 'your' routine and 'your' chores. So the focus is not on the child, but on you and your daily way of being. The child has to slot into that.
So you might be cooking for example but you have the children involved and helping you. They are only helping as they get older obviously (laughing at thought of dd chopping potatoes), when they are very young they are just observing.
I think it's interesting that I 'did' pretty much have dd strapped to me. I think i was rebelling then against my mother's way of doing things. i didnt always find that easy either because it kind of went against the grain. I have to say though as a result I was so much more bonded with dd than with ds (which Im sure is another part of why I have problems at times with ds).

I think the thing about what you were saying wrt mediation is also really useful. I currently try and bring myself back into the moment when Im feeling frustrated with ds, by reminding myself how young he really is.
I think sometimes he is just a little boy but I try and give him adult attributes.

This discussion about DC's is so interesting. OSAHM, I was exactly the same with my DD when she was very small and now she is bigger I cannot always cope with the demanding child i realise I created. I have been struggling recently with my feelings about DD, her "demandingness" was making it very difficult for me to be around her (being snowed in for 3 days has not helped in the slightest either).

Feeling that i'm not alone and knowing that other people feel their DC's are very demanding is very reassuring. I am wondering now if there is any way of 'reversing' what I have done in causing DD to be so demanding.

I also feel reassured when i talk to other mums who also seem to find their eldest DC far more demanding and attention seeking than their subsequent DC's who seem to become progressively more and more laid back.

WTSA, not sure if we can "reverse" the demandingness or not as we 'ingrained' it in them probably! Maybe it would work to retrain them by having little blocks of time when we say "I have to do x task for half an hour now and I need to concentrate on it so I don't want you to ask me for anything during that time. If you can give me the space to do that, it will be really helpful and I'll give you a sweet" (oops, hope people don't disapprove of me using bribery with my kids).

OSAHM, am sure you're right, it's ingrained from a very young age and probably irreversible. Perhaps it may have benefits when they are a lot older in terms of personal achievement and success etc. Most eldest DC's seem to be high achievers. But your suggestion sounds sensible and possible for managing the demandingness in the present. Will try and give it a go. DD doesn't seem to mind who gives her attention so i have found having friends over regularly seems to take the pressure off me.

well according to this cc theory, you engage them in the task with you.
So I have been trying this out a bit today with ds.
I think it does make sense because he will be learning to do things himself and so become more independant as time goes on.
This is something my mother never did. we never 'did' tasks together.
I like the idea of it but wether it works practically I will have to wait and see.

This will test me as well because I often feel I need to control everything. I know i will feel the urge to 'take over' if ds is doing stuff.