Our 6th visit to the Stately Home.....

[oneplusone]

Hi all, took the liberty of starting a new thread. Keep on posting!

Hi PM, I'm fine thanks, considering what's happened.

I am concerned about you. What you said here "It's strange. A big part of me just does not want to see her." Why do you think it's strange that a part of you just does not want to see your mother? Is it so strange considering how she treats you and makes you feel. I think it is absolutely normal and healthy to not want to be around people who do nothing but make you feel bad/upset/guilty/angry/etc. It just so happens that the person happens to be your mother, which of course has a huge bearing on how you react to her. But if anybody else made you feel like that surely you would not think it strange you didn't much feel like spending time with that other person?

sb9, sorry it's taken so long to get back to you/ Yes the sister situation is awful. And it's not you, her reply is all about her and there is no acknowledgement much less any understanding about you and your feelings. I am really sorry to say that both you and I are like cardboard cutouts to our sisters. We exist merely to give them what they need. We do not have needs or feelings of our own which are just as valid as theirs. In my case i know my sisters have been trained/brainwashed into this way of thinking about me by our parents. It's all they know. And in my case, unless there is some sort of miracle, i can't see things ever changing. I have totally given up on them. I am completely detached emototionally, i know they will never 'see' me, but now i just don't care. They are who they are and I am who I am and the world is full of other people and not all of them are like my sisters and i know i can find much healthier people with whom to have a 'sisterly' sort of relationship. I did start a seperate thread about this which you may find helpful, will try and do you a link in a minute.

I have not physically cut ties with my sisters, i am going to see them next month, but emotionally i have. And i think this is why things blew up with DH, he was the next layer of the onion and our issues and problems were only really revealed once i had 'dealt' with the layer about my sisters iykwim.

DH is coming back tomorrow. We have agreed certain things on a 1 month trial basis and he has agreed to go to Relate in 1 month. He seems to have no idea how deep rooted our issues are and keeps wanting to sweep them under the carpet and paper over the cracks. I think he is scared perhaps of facing up to the deeper problems. Anyway, he has agreed to go to relate so i feel there is a bit of hope. I think though that he has NPD, not in an extreme way, but he certainly has tendencies and he has already openly admitted that he thinks his mother has NPD, so it is really no surprise that he also has tendencies in that direction.

Think we'll just have to take it one step at a time. Even realising he has NPD makes me feel a sense of relief as he has always tried to make out that every single one of our problems is down to me and my issues and it was a very easy get out of jail free card for him to use as there is no denying that me and my issues have caused huge problems for us. But because of that he completely beleives he is totally absolved from any responsibility for his issues causing any problems and trying to explain this to him has felt like hitting my head against a brick wall. Now an independent 3rd party will be involved i hope at least that he will listen to her as he certainly won't listen to me.

He feels deeply resentful of me for all the time that i have been 'ill' and been consumed with sorting out my issues and also being a mother. There was nothing left in me to be a wife so he was very neglected. But he keeps saying he is not resentful, he understands why i couldn't be much of a wife to him. But i can feel the resentment emanating from him all the time. If i dare to say no to him about something he explodes and if i dare to ask for something from him he thinks i have no right. He thinks i 'owe' him for the fact he stuck around whilst i was ill. And whilst i am grateful he stuck by me, i don't think i 'owe' him anything or need to make anything up to him. I have not forfeited all rights to have expectations of him just because i was ill. It wasn't my fault that i was ill. This is all causing huge problems atm, and i don't think DH himself is even aware that he is resentful and he does think i owe him even though he keeps denying that that is how he feels.

sorry it's me opo, tried a new (entirely random) name but forgot to change back!

sb9, my other thread is here

I know I don't understand myself sometimes. I think I meant the feeling of being torn all the time is strange. But really what must seem more strange to others is the fact that I keep going back for more, but then I have made improvement-at least she isn't planting herslef on my sofa talking to my sis for two hours each week whilst I make her lunch. I need to be able to assert myseelf with her more directly but I cannot believe that she will pay any attention. I suppose I should try again. I used to argue but I got so much abuse for it, and they both said they would never change so what am I doing here, exactly?

Hope things are ok for you, OPo.

Hello, opo here, as the name suggests, i feel like i want to start again, having hopefully got rid of most of the rubbish I have been carrying around with me til now.

PM, i think and hope you will find it easier and easier to assert yourself as you work through your issues. I have definately found that, and it has been a bit of a revelation, realising just how much rubbish i had been putting up with from people. But it will happen when you are ready, you just need to keep working on yourself in whichever way suits you best.

I have 2 issues going on at the moment. One is to do with my sisters.....again.....yes, I'm fed up of it as well now. Because i was caught off guard a while ago because my sister phoned me unexpectedly, i somehow found myself agreeing to go and visit both of them and the date is getting closer and closer and i increasingly feel like i don't want to go. But i don't know how to get out of it without causing offence and somehow leaving it a long time to re-arrange ie when i feel ready. I could use the obvious excuse, illness, which would definately be believable at this time of year.

But of course then the guilt kicks in. I mainly or even only feel guilty in relation to the DC's. As I will be depriving them of the chance to see and spend time with their aunties/uncles/cousins. DD in particular loves visiting people and i suppose the guilt i feel is largely in relation to her as DS is very shy and would probably prefer not to go. But on the plus side, i genuinely feel that although i don't feel ready to see my sisters right now, i don't think i will always feel like this, i imagine that perhaps in a year's time, after i have had time to do some more work on myself, i could be in a place where seeing them will not upset me as i know it will now.

Neither sister has contacted me for a while which i am happy about as i always feel upset after any sort of contact with them.

My other issue is with DH which has been ongoing for ages. I feel like I am seeing things a bit more clearly now though. I think we both had a number of unmet childhood needs when we met and got married. I also had a load of baggage caused by being abused/nelgected. I at first thought DH had no issues whatsoever as his family seemed lovely and his parents clearly loved him dearly. But the more i got to know him and his family the more i realised that they had their own problems like any other family.

But most significantly, i am starting to realise that DH does have some deep rooted issues and insecurities of which he is completely unaware. He is not willing to let go of the illusion that he had an almost perfect, loving childhood where every one of his needs was met by his mother/father.

But, I know that his mother had PND after he was born and found it very difficult to manage for the first year. That in itself tells me enough for me to know that she was unlikely to have been emotionally available to DH when he was very young. That is likely to have left him with very early feelings of being abandoned, unwanted and unloved. And as a result i feel he has formed an unhealthy attachment to me, and is always looking to me to fulfil his unmet needs from when he was a very young baby. I remember when we first met, he seemed to be so attached to me and whenever i had to go home, he was devasted, to the point where he was in tears once. And i never felt the same way myself, in fact i was quite glad to get some space from him and go back to my place as he seemed so intensely attached to me.

What has been particularly difficult in our case is the combination of 2 people, each with their own deep rooted issues, and both unaware of them until, for me, the light began to dawn around 3 years ago, but for DH, there has been no gradual process of enlightenment.

I have realised now that he has been triggering me a lot and I have also been looking to him to meet my unmet childhood needs and then resenting him because i thought he was failing me, when in fact, it was wholly impossible for him as my DH to meet the needs that only my parents could and should have met when i was a child. I can see now, that the same is true of DH. He is looking to me to fill his unmet childhood needs and when i fail in that, he thinks I am letting him down as his wife, when in fact it was his mother who let him down as a child and it is impossible for me now to fulfil those needs. Just like in my case, those needs could only have been met in childhood by DH's parents and if that failed to happen then, it is a loss he will forever endure. But he is totally unaware of this and i know he always feels I am letting him down and not living up to his expectations as a DW. And he directs his resentment and disappointment towards me instead of his mother who is the original cause of his resentment and disappointment and feelings of being neglected, unloved, unwanted etc. If, whilst DH had been directing his resentment, disappointment, etc, towards me, I had been a healthy person with good self esteem and self confidence, i would have, I feel, not taken on board and accepted DH's criticisms of me as valid and not felt so hurt and crushed by them as i would have the self belief and self confidence in myself to know that i was fulfilling my role as a DW to him and not being a failure as he has always made me out to be. But because i was full of my own self doubts and feelings of inadequacy and lack of self respect and self worth, DH's criticisms of me and disappointment in me, were all accepted by me, taken on board as my problems and internalised as the truth.

It is only now i am realising what has been happening in our relationship. There is some validity in DH's argument that he has been neglected and I am fully aware that whilst I was in the stage where dealing with my issues was all consuming, i did indeed almost completely neglect DH as it was all i could do to get through each day looking after the DC's and sorting myself out, never mind looking after DH as well. But a lot of our issues go back even before having DC's, and DH has said that he feels i have never lived up to his expectations as a DW. And i am sure it is partly true as i always had my issues even though i was unaware of them and they did cause problems for us even before i had the DC's, but i am realising now that as well as my issues, DH has also always had his issues, of which he is unaware, and these have also been put into the mix and have caused their own problems, which i am only now beginning to see a bit more clearly. And so whilst it may be true that due to my own problems i may not have been the sort of wife DH was looking for, I haven't been as big a failure as he seems to think because his expecations were completely unrealistic in the first place as he was looking to me to fill the gap his mother had left when he was a child, a gap she left because she had her own unresolved childhood issues.

There have been so many little 'clues' along the way pointing to DH's issues but i simply have not had the clarity or space in my own mind to be able to see them until now and it is only because i have managed to deal with a huge proportion of my own issues that there is any space left in my brain to be able to see and work out what else has been going on with us.

There is too much to go into here, but the mere fact that DH's mother comes from a highly dysfunctional family, which DH admits, that she has her own unresolved issues which meant she sensed i was a victim and bullied me, again which DH admits, that DH is the eldest child, are all enough to tell me that DH has issues which ideally he should try and work on but I know i can't force him.

I am sorry for rambling on so much, i felt like all of this was a jumble in my head and i could only sort it out by writing it down. Thanks if you have read so far!

Pinky, you are making progress and you should be easy on yourself because it takes time. You also asked questions in your post and you are asking yourself those questions, and your brain will be working on the answers even while you are not consciously thinking about it. Realisations about things and feelings of certainty and clarity about things sometimes come gradually by thinking about the same thing several times over time.

I think you are doing really well, especially in the face of your insane relatives

Startafresh, I understand your post and that makes me think it must make sense.

It also makes me think about how most people may be affected by their childhoods in some slightly negative ways even if their childhood was generally good, there must still often be little bits that weren't ideal because nobody is perfect and nobody's parenting is perfect probably. In our relationships with our DHs we should take that into account even if we might feel they have no 'excuse' for having certain faults because they didn't have childhoods as bad as ours.

Since I read Alice Miller ages ago and have read things on here I really 'get it' how people are often in denial about people they love or want to love, having faults or having done some things wrong. My DH is definitely one of the people, I think, who says things like "My parents did that and it didn't do me any harm" and he wants to do things the same way with his children to 'prove' to himself that he does believe those things were ok. They weren't terrible things but I sometimes don't agree with his 'ways'.

I have also done this denial thing myself with different people in my life. I've wanted to think they are wonderful and perfect and they are what I've been looking for to fill a certain role in my life (eg motherly/sisterly figure). When I get into an argument with them (which rarely happens because I'm very non-confrontational and 'people-pleasing') I start seeing all the things about them that have ever upset me but I dismissed them and ignored my negative feelings at the time. It then seems like a shock to realise that they have all these faults when I had idolised them as being perfect (because I wanted them to be perfect). Now that I've had an argument I'm not in dismissal/denial of all the little things which make the person imperfect (as we all are).

I'm very mixed up at the moment because I've just had one of these arguments and it is so unlike me to express negative feelings and complain to anyone about how they have been with me. It scares me to the point of making me feel sick. And I think I might be about to lose a friend because of it. Yet I felt I had to do it. I don't know if I've done the right thing or not or if I have been 'over the top' because of my 'issues' and hurt her when I shouldn't have and probably lost her friendship. But in another way I feel like it is an achievement for me to be brave enough to say what I think at all when normally I never ever do. I have such uncertainty and lack of faith in my judgement of whether I've done/am doing the right thing.

It also reminds me of something someone else said on this thread or a similar thread about becoming less likely to accept people treating them in ways they don't want as they become stronger and sort out their issues. But if the person is used to you never complaining what ever they do, it comes as a shock to them. I'm wondering if this is what is happening to me at the moment or if I'm just a bitch who has overreacted because some of my issues were triggered. I'm seeing Therapist soon and hope he will tell me what is what!

Thanks for your replies. DD2's birthday is turning into a bit of a trigger for me, as my mother behaved so badly at the time. I had to have DD2 delivered early because there was doubt about her growth and she was not emptying her bladder. My mother of course made it all about her.I was so worried and so wanted to enjoy my last babie's birth and my mother just had to create a drama about herself. It was pure accident that she was around- we had decided that we would not involve them at all this time, after the last times, but as fate would have it she was at my house when I had my routine check which led to me being admitted to hosp.

OSAHM I think you may possibly be doing that fear of extreme retribution thing thta we do whenever we voice any disaproval or differing point of view? It was always (and still is) an invitation to a lot of abuse from my parents if I held any opinion that was not the same as theirs, or if I said actually could we do x instead becuase that would suit me better (as if I would ever say that to them!). At the moment my mother is trying to get into our house again- she is using someone else's present for DD2 as leverage - she hasn't got one for her herslef, mind! I am in trouble becuase I am busy on the day she wanted to come. I AM NOT ALLOWED TO BE BUSY. How DARE I. It is DD2's birthday and my mother is going to make a fuss about herself, I can see it a mile off. SO given that this is the pattern my life has always taken, it's not suprising when I get veyr scared that I mightlose a friendship over a difference of opinion, or by not being available one day. Does this make any sense?

I know I have to ring her again but I honnestly don't know what to say.

Thanks Pinky. I can see why you have the same fear about disagreeing with/complaining to people about their behaviour. What you wrote makes sense. I'm not sure I know why I'm like this. Maybe if I write it will become clearer.

I don't really remember EVER voicing disagreement or complaining about anyone's behaviour towards me as a child. So I don't remember doing this and suffering a consequence that put me off doing it again. From a young age I was too scared to speak out against anyone. I don't know if I was just very shy or if things had already happened to make me like this.

What did happen was I was bullied for the smallest imperfection in my brother's eyes. I walked on eggshells around him and tried to please him. I tried to mirror his moods and agree with his opinions, like what he liked, do the things he approved of, dress the way he would approve of and listen to the music he would approve of. I ignored a lot of my own genuine feelings and focussed on his. I felt I wasn't allowed to be a separate person and I didn't own myself or my life. Some people seemed to treat me in ways they wanted to without caring how I felt (partly because I never showed how I felt probably) and did things that I felt they wouldn't dare to do to a more important person.

Maybe I have got to a point where the pressure of keeping my own feelings to myself in order to protect someone else's has built up so much that it is busting out onto the nearest person (my friend) who has made me feel like I have to put up with something and not speak out because I'm afraid to upset them or afraid of their reaction.

But this is like saying that I am at fault and I haven't yet worked out whether I am or not. If someone has done something that has upset you, is it wrong to tell them it has upset/annoyed you?

Maybe it scares me so much because I am so unused to doing it. I was told as a child "don't cause a scene" when I told my mum about very bad things happening to me. I do feel like it is a bad thing if I cause a scene and I feel as scared of a scene as my mum seemed to be.

Maybe I'm at fault in that I didn't say anything to my friend as soon as various little incidents happened because I was scared to, but this meant I let the pressure build and build until when the final thing happened which was 'the straw that broke the camel's back' I had a reaction which might look like an overreaction to other people. It was really a reaction to all the little things added together, rather than to the last thing.

I'm not actually scared of "extreme retribution" from her because I know she isn't going to do something extreme like things that happened to me in the past. I'm actually scared of the most minimal 'retribution'. I'm scared of her pulling a negative face, giving me a black look, using a nasty voice, saying sarcastic things, or even feeling angry with me without me even seeing/hearing her. I'm really scared of those things, but I don't know why, as logically they don't sound like big things and they are small compared to other things I have been through. Why am I so scared of those things? I actually feel sick and my guts are clenching up and I can't concentrate on things properly.

I'm thinking this stuff wouldn't scare most people and they wouldn't make such a big thing of it as me. I want to know why it is such a big thing to me.

I'm also scared of the guilt of upsetting her. I'm thinking 'how could I' when she has done so much for me.

I feel like I've done wrong but I also feel that saying nothing when someone upsets me and acting like everything is ok is doing wrong to myself. I don't want to go back to ActingNormal, I want to be normal/ordinary like other people. I hate it when I am fighting myself with two opposing feelings like this.

And, don't 'normal' people sometimes decide not to say anything if there are just one or two incidents where people upset them, they just let it go as a one off and let them off? They feel it is unlikely to happen again it was just a one off because the other person was not feeling themselves that day or something. But then when the person upsets them several times and it then seems like it is not a 'one off' they say something about it then - is this what normal people do? Have I not been 'abnormal' after all? Should I be forgiven for not saying things immediately instead of letting it build up?

Good luck with DD2's birthday Pinky. The situation does sound stressful and it is bad that you have to have this stress when you should be able to focus just on your DD and for you and her to have a happy time together.

PM, the sense I get from your posts about your mother is that she will do anything to try and control you and get you to behave as she wants you to. And if you dare (in her eyes) not to allow yourself to be controlled, she throws a 'tantrum' at you. She possibly has deep rooted insecurities of her own and keeping control of you keeps her from confronting her own insecurities. And so she will go to any length to control you. Does any of that make any sense to you at all? Perhaps understanding your mother's behaviour will help you to detach from it and not be so affected by it and also give you the confidence to do things your way without feeling afraid of your mother's reaction? Sorry if i am way off the mark, but didn't want to not help you if my thoughts could help in any way.

OSAHM, your posts make so much sense and describe my own (internal voices) feelings so well.

I absolutely believe that everybody is affected by their childhood in some way. There is a spectrum, where abuse is at one end. I believe there are two sorts of people in this world, those that are aware they have issues and are working on themselves and those that don't know they have got issues. At the moment i am in the first camp and DH is in the second camp. He thinks he had a great childhood and that his parents were almost perfect and within the spectrum it is true to say that his childhood was far more towards the non-abusive end. But that does not mean to say that he does not have unmet childhood needs which he is looking towards others to now fill. I can see how some of his friends fulfill some of his unmet childhood needs and how he looks to me to fulfill other unmet needs. But I think he is forever being disappointed both by me and his friends as of course none of us can fill the void left by his parents; but he is totally unaware of this and genuinely feels it is me who is the problem by being an inadequate and not good enough wife to him.

I know his behaviour and thought process will not change until he gains some self awareness and insight, but at least now, I will no longer keep taking on his baggage as my own and agreeing to carry it for him, as i have been doing until now. I will continue, as i have begun to do recently, draw boundaries in our relationship and make it clear that whilst i accept i have certain duties and responsibilities to him as his wife, i am not willing to take on the responsibilities that his mother failed to fulfill when he was a baby/child.

OSAHM, I absolutely know what you mean about 'idolising' friends and thinking they are a near perfect friend and somehow 'registering' but at the same time ignoring things they have said and done which don't tie in with the perfect friend picture of them that you have painted for yourself. That is exactly what I realise I was doing with a friend I used to have but who i have now not been in contact with for nearly 2 years. Before that we were 'friends' for almost 20 years. Like you have described, i thought she was a 'perfect' friend, i really liked her and thought so highly of her. And yet, over the years she had done many things and said many things which showed me that she didn't think nearly as highly of me as i thought of her. I remember when she said something in that vein, i would be surprised that she clearly thought so little of me to be able say what she did, that even after many years of friendship she didn't actually seem to know me all that well. But I NEVER said anything to her about how she had made me feel, about how she had got me completely wrong on many occasions. And like you have said, one day she said some things which were the straw that broke the camel's back and it is since then that i have decided i don't want any more contact with her. But, I also know that if i hadn't at the time been working on myself and my issues, if i had remained in my previous state of blindness about myself, even her 'last straw' comments would have not caused me to decide i no longer wanted her as a 'friend'.

I can see now that i was willing to accept, at times, being treated quite badly and uncaringly by her, simply because i was so desperately needing and wanting some little morsel of care and affection, which often i did get from her, that i was willing to put up with also being treated quite uncaringly at times. But, by the time that friend made the comments which did end our friendship, i had worked on myself enough and recovered enough self confidence and self esteem to realise that i didn't need that friendship as much as i thought i had needed it and i was able to let it go, without feeling like i couldn't cope without her. And it's not as if i had made lots of other 'replacement' friends so i could let that one go quite easily, because i hadn't. But i had made big changes inside me, and that is the reason i could let her go.

I am not sure what the answer is when you talk about the best way to deal with these situations in the future. ie where you have a 'friend' who is generally 'ok' but then does little hurtful/upsetting things. Do you say something? And risk the 'minor retribution' that you have described? Or do you say nothing and let it build until it completely cracks apart? Neither solution seems acceptable, perhaps there is a third way which we don't know about but which perhaps your therapist will talk about?

From what i have observed, most people seem not to say things to their friends if they have upset/hurt them in some small way. But they will have a moan to other people about it and continue with the friendship. That seems to be ok as long as the other person does not then tell the friend about your 'moans' and cause further problems.

Perhaps it is best to start off the friendship, no matter how wonderful and nice and lovely the other person seems to be, in the knowledge that it is very likely that other person has their own issues and that sooner or later these will be taken out on you, unless the friend has done a huge amount of work on themselves and has sufficient self awareness and insight that they have no need to take out their issues on other people. But those people, i feel, are quite rare indeed.

OSAHM, what you said here, describes so perfectly where i am at right now with various different people in my life "I feel like I've done wrong but I also feel that saying nothing when someone upsets me and acting like everything is ok is doing wrong to myself." I am in this situation with that school mum friend i talked about a while ago where i feel bad because she was a 'friend' to me at a time when i was very down and needed a friend, but then she also said some very nasty things to me over the whole issue with her son's attachment to DD, which i simply could not let go. So now we are no longer friends and i do feel guilty at times as i realise i am at fault as well as i think my issues did play a part in the whole thing, as did her issues. But at the same time i feel like i am making a stand, if i 'let her off' i feel like i would be betraying myself and i cannot do that to myself. Even though it wasn't my fault, i feel i have been letting myself down for so long, by allowing myself to be treated so badly by so many people that i am now almost operating a 'zero tolerance' policy wrt people who i feel treat me badly and disrespectfully. And i know i am being unrealistic and unreasonable about people, but right now that is the way i feel and i can't seem to change it. Perhaps over time, as i 'learn' how to manage my expectations about friends, i will relax a little and allow people a bit of leeway, but at the moment, i can't seem to do that.

But I am learning not to 'fall in love' with a new person who i might meet who i feel might become a good friend. I used to feel an immediate and strong connection with somebody who i might have had 1 or 2 things in common with and like i said, almost 'fall in love' with them. I nearly did that with a mum i met a while ago. It really was a 'falling in love' sort of feeling i had, where i felt i had met somebody who i could possibly be really close to and would perhaps fulfill the mother/sister gap in my life. But i was kind of aware of myself at the same time, i was aware that i was about to fall into the same trap i had fallen into many times before with other people and ended up disappointed and hurt and let down as the other person turned out not to be who i wrongly thought they were or they had not 'fallen in love' with me in the same way i had done with them. It is only like that another person would feel a similar strong attachment to me if they were very needy and looking to fill a gap in their life and it would be a very unhealthy relationship if that were the case.

I know i need to work more on myself and build my self confidence and self esteem so i am not so needy about wanting a mother/sister figure and have realistic expections about what i can gain from a friendship.

Right now I am only a SAHM and a wife. I don't really have any hobbies or interests that I pursue purely for myself and i think that might be a way forward for me. To do some activities and join groups that i am interested in to give myself a stronger sense of identity and self confidence.

Thank you StartFresh. Your point about feeling you have taken so much shit for so long that now you can't take any at all and feel a 'zero tolerance' thing is particularly interesting. This and some other stuff you said, makes me think maybe it isn't so bad that I didn't say something the first few times I got pissed off and does make me feel this would be how normal people would be.

You must be right about us needing a middle way, but finding where that middle way is, is the hard bit. Maybe talking to other people about how much they will/won't put up with from other people and what they would do in our situations might help.

I can see from writing and reading that a key thing I need to work on is how to not be scared of people's little reactions to me showing negative feelings when I need to. Finding ways to say what I need to say in a 'nice' way might be something to focus on as well.

OSAHM, yes I think what you said here is key "Finding ways to say what I need to say in a 'nice' way might be something to focus on as well." I think it is called a 'win-win' situation. Where you say what you need to say, but without making the other person feel defensive/upset etc and so hopefully they are receptive to your concerns and willing to change in the way you want. I think it is the real meaning of being assertive, ie asserting your own needs/feelings/wishes but not in an agressive/attacking/unpleasant way which is actually very hard when you are feeling emotional and upset and angry because of how the other person has behaved.

It is actually a huge problem for me, particularly with DH. He has always said that when i want something from him (not like eg putting out the rubbish) about which i feel emotional, I always talk to him in a agressive way and he then gets defensive and it turns into a lose-lose situation. I don't get what i want and we end up in a fight. I know i have learnt this behaviour from childhood, it was how things were done in my family. We were never taught how to approach and talk about difficult subjects and feelings in a 'nice' way. So, like with friends, little things would be left and left and eventually the last thing would break the camel's back and there would be an almighty row. I know now that this is a behaviour i need to 'unlearn' but i don't know how and i would dearly love to know how to talk about difficult/emotional things both with friends and DH and most importantly, teach the DC's how to do so as well.

I haven't been here for a while but need to put down some thoughts if you don't mind (sorry that it's so long).

I am thinking of taking a break from my parents for a bit. There are some things that are really bugging me atm - that I can't get past and I need a break.

Some seem really petty but some are bigger but they all seem to affect me the same.

When I was a child every week my parents would buy a family treat. Every bloody week it was lemon merangue (sp?) pie. I hate the stuff so much. At first they used to buy me something else but then they stopped. It was my fault for not likeing what everyone else did. I was deliberately excluding myself from the nice thing they had done. They did this on other stuff but this always sticks out. It seems so petty but really hurt. I always felt like the odd one out and this just highlighted it. And I didn't do it deliberately.

Their house also always was and always is cold - and I meaning freezing. If I go to visit them it takes about 24 hours for me to warm up properly afterwards. When I was a child/teen I didn't sleep because I was so cold. I had electric blanket/hot water bottle/several layers of clothes and all the blankets I could find. In the morning I would have to get up adn take shower. My mum refuses tohave the water more than about luke warm so I would get even colder. The radiator in my room didn't work (though it wouldn't have made much difference) but I was too scared to tell them. I thought it was a psychological thing but ds also freezes there (and he is never cold). It wouldn't have bothered me if they couldn't afford it but they could. My overriding memory of my teenage years is being freezing cold all the time. I had constant chest infections (and am asthmatic) and a frozen neck that still cause me problems.

I had a lot of issues as a child. At senior school I used to have constant panic attacks and be sent home. My parents never bothered to find out why - it was just me being oversensitive and difficult. I used to self harm (cutting) and take overdoses of painkillers but I was just told to stop on one occassion when my mum found out and that 'no daughter of mine is depressed' (dr diagnosed me with depression at 9yo but my mum walked out and changed surgeries). I wouldn't drink liquids (I survived on half a glass of water in an evening) for a couple of years and had problems because i was really dehydrated. I gave up talking for a year (when I was about 11) and my mum never told me till afterwards and how difficult it was for her. I had loads of other issues as well (not wanting to leave house/see anyone/refusing to go to school). None of which was commented on apart from that I was difficult.

When I did finally have counselling at 16 (6 sessions and didn't get on with therapist so no good) I was too terrified to tell my mum and lied as to where I was going.

My mum always told me I was the clever one and my sister was the pretty one who people liked. When she was being really horrible to me about a year ago no matter what I said she would not believe I had any friends. Because (I believe) she can't see anyone wanting to be friends with me. She sees me as very antisocial/introverted and having a strange sense of humour that no one can understand. I do have friends (brilliant supportive ones) though I am shy. I was/am also spiteful, sharp tongued and I scare people so no one wants to talk to me. Anytime I say anything she tells me to stop shouting and being so nasty but won't let me know what I have done. So I don't know what I am doing wrong.

She has rewritten my childhood so now I was the difficult one (my sister has lots of probs and was uncontrollable - previously I was the good one) - I was oversensitive, clingy, antisocial and boring apparently.

I am terrified with everyone that I will say/do the wrong thing without meaning to and they will punish me/cut me off. I have nightmares that my fantastic MIL who I rely on does this to me because I've done something and I don't know what it is. I am used to people suddenly turning and yelling screaming at me for no reason I can understand. I told my aunt once (came up in conversation) that me and my sis weren't that close (we can't stand each other) and my mum tore me to pieces after. I didn't know I wasn't supposed to say it

I am also fed up with being blamed for my sister's behaviour. When I was a child if ever I complained of her being mean or hitting me it was my fault for teaching her the behaviour in the first place so I had no right to complain. BUT WHO TAUGHT ME It's still always my fault if we disagree. I have to walk around eggshells around sis who explodes if she thinks you might be criticising her. And then my mum wonders why we are constantly jealous of each other. And why we have always screamed at each other at full volume when it's all my parents ever did. It was mortifying in public. I hated it so much and still do.

I have never been forgiven for anything I did as a child. It is constantly brought up as evidence of my failings.

I lived with them for 9 months when ds was born. My mum convinced the midwife that I was going to be such a crap mother that the midwife did extra visits till she realised I was coping. My HV used to check everything with my mum before she carried out stuff. My mum tells me I am a terrible parent who is destroying my sons life.

But mum believes my sister is brilliant with kids despite any evidence to the contrary. Sis did horrible things when ds was tiny. The worst being that I used to beg mum that I would call in sick to work when I first went back after ds if she couldn't look after ds herself. But she would promise me she would. Then I would get home and find that sis was looking after him and that she was watching telly in the dark and ds was on the other side of the room screaming his head off while she ignored him. I had no idea how long she had left him like that.

They also treat dp (my partner of 10 years) as no more than a sperm donor. They laugh at him and make fun of him. I hate it. I pull them up on it and it has got better but they just completely disregard him as if he doesn't exist.

I see them once a week atm with ds (5yo). I want to stop this as whatever I do it isn't enough until I leave dp and take ds to live with them (aparently i can carry on 'seeing' dp if I like ). They spend the entire visit ignoring me and going into another room with ds or the short amount of time they do spend with me is spent complaining how they don't see enough of me and ds and how unfair it is me keeping ds from them. Now I tend to visit them on the same day it is set in stone and they hang up on me or sulk if I don't go (cos I'm ill/have other arrangements) - nothing is a good enough reason. My mum's phone calls are building up again so she phones me every couple of days to complain how she hasn't seen me (that's all she talks about) to the point where i hate answering the phone again.

They have no idea what kind of person I really am or what my interests/likes are - even down to the kind of foods I dislike (ones I have never eaten). It's like I am not real to them almost.

I want a break for a while. If I give them a one weekly visit then they are not satisfied until I see them daily and ds stays overnight (which I am not happy to do as last time they had him unsupervised we had problems getting him back again). I can't be dealing with this anymore. We moved house to be further away from them and so they couldn't control us as much but it is all creeping back.

But I don't know how to tell them I need a break.

Why dont you let your mother read this. It might sink in if she sees it written down.

TheArmadillo, hello. I think you are doing the right thing for yourself in wanting to take a break from your parents. Given all that you have said, it is certainly the 'healthy' thing to do. How to go about it is another matter and it is something I am struggling with myself wrt my sisters.

You have described how many of us feel, that our families don't really know or even 'see' the real us, know nothing about us or who we really are. We are cardboard cutouts to them, not real people.

Re taking a break, I have sort of done it with my sisters by simply stopping phoning them or contacting them in any way. They sometimes contact me so I will chat on the phone/answer texts but I never initiate the contact. They don't seem particularly bothered or put out by my lack of contact, tbh, I doubt if they have even noticed, they are so wrapped up in themselves, they only ever noticed me when they wanted something from me. I have a visit coming up with them which i am starting to worry about as i don't want to go but feel terribly guilty on behalf of the DC's if we don't go as i am depriving them from seeing their extended family.

I remember now, before i cut my parents off, i desperately felt also that i needed a break from them, their constant phone calls and constant badgering to visit them or for them to visit me. I felt quite desperate at one stage, i just wanted them to leave me alone but didn't know how to tell them. I remember now that i wrote them a letter, i can't even remember exactly what i wrote in it, but i know it was very polite and i asked them to stop phoning etc. The letter did seem to work as they did stop their constant phone calls and pestering for visits (because they wanted to see DD). Would that work for you? I simple, polite letter, not going into detail and trying not to offend them in any way, simply so you can get what you want ie a break from them?

I don't think showing them your post will do any good unfortunately. I wrote a long letter at a later stage to my parents, i think after i had cut them off, giving details like yours really, about why i didn't want them in my life anymore. I suppose i was hoping they would suddenly realise how they had made me feel over the years, feel deeply regretful and remorseful and offer me an unreserved and sincere apology. How wrong I was! I had a letter from my dad trying to make reinstate contact by trying to make me feel sorry for him because he was having health problems. No mention was made of the things i had written in my letter, the instances of verbal, mental and psychological abuse and bullying i had endured since i was 10. And i had a letter from my mother (whom my dad had also verbally abused and bullied for many years) saying how she was sorry that she had not stuck up for herself more!

Needless to say, i did not reinstate contact and I have not heard from them since. They will never change, they are living in their own little delusional world, with my sisters, all playing at being a normal, happy family when it is nothing of the sort.

Sorry, forgot to mention that my dad did sort of refer to the instances of abuse and bullying i had mentioned in my letter by saying that he and my mother had no idea how i had been feeling all these years! How the hell did he think i would feel about them after i had been bulllied and abused by him for years on end whilst my mother watched and did nothing?!

OSAHM, i have thought a bit more about this and think perhaps that 'normal' people simply do not have the high hopes and expectations from friendships that we seem to have. Our, or at least my, unrealistically high hopes i realise stem from the fact that i was so deprived of 'friendships' within my family that i am craving them and whenever a friendship starts forming in adulthood, i put so much into it and expect a lot in return. But i realise now that i put too much into friendships, i put into them what ideally i would normally have put into my relationships with my parents and sisters ie lots of love, care, attention, thought, generosity etc and ideally i would have recieved the same back from them had i been in a 'normal' functional family.

By putting too much into my friendships, i was expecting too much back. It would have not been too much to put into my family relationships i feel, and it would not have been too much to expect a lot back from them, but it is too much when it comes to 'mere' friendships as opposed to family relationships.

Perhaps a normal person's strong and intense feelings of affection and wanting to show care and affection and attention towards another were satisfied in childhood within their family and as an adult they were more 'restrained' in their friendships, ie gave less and expected less and were therefore less exposed to being let down, hurt and upset.

Just thinking out loud, sorry if it doesn't make much sense.

Thanks everyone for your replies. The Armadillo I truly sympathise with you situation. After my conversation with my mother today I really think it is time for me to take a break.

I had rather misjudged the situation with the presents. Mother does not want to get into my house at all. In fact she wanted to get the gifts dumped, becuase after pressing her a bit I have discovered that my brother is up for a visit this weekend. Nobody was going to tell me. But she quite enjoyed telling me in the end, I could tell from her extra cold tone.She was crowing. She then went on to tell me I should ring her to arrange to see her next week, becuase she would like that. I also have to feel sympathy for my SIL because she has been a bit under the weather.

So not only am I expected to swallow the rejection, I am expected to take my mother out once my brother and his family have gone back home, and feel sorry for my SIL whio has had a cold.

MY Mother is not a mother, is she? SHe does not treat me like a daughter. I am something to be picked up and put down, controlled, manipulated, wounded maligned, gossipped about. All for her benefit.

I cannot ring her next week, it would be lie lying face down in the mud for her. I cannot do this any more. Surely there is a point where I have to draw the line.

This visit has been planned for ages- they posted my little girl's present to me a month ago- when all the while they knew they would be less than 30 mins away on the day after her birthday.

This is not a new thing, this happens all the time. They all used to go out and leave me on my own when I was a child and thye have been doing it ever since.

But I have my family. My beautiful beautiful little family. I am going to turn away from myold family, maybe not for good, but for a long time. It's not to punish them, I just caaanot take any more of their rejection.

I'm sorry not to reply to people, I am just too raw at the moment.

PM, I think you have just taken a huge positive step forward in healing and recovering your self confidence and self esteem. I think you will benefit enormously from having a break from your family. You will give yourself the time and space you need to 'lick your wounds' in a safe, protected place, surrounded only by people who do truly care for you ie your beautiful little family as you have said. And like you said, you are not doing it for revenge, you simply cannot take anymore pain and that is a 'healthy' reason to step away from them for a while. You are starting to look after yourself and it is such an important step to take. Well done for being brave enough to even consider doing it.

Don't worry about replying to other people, just focus on looking after yourself and post whenever you need to.

I have realised I have been trying to achieve something impossible with DH. It is very similar to what I was trying to do with my sisters. I was trying to make them understand how I felt about our parents and see things from my pov when it was impossible for them to do this as not only had they not experienced what i had experienced with our parents, they had experienced something completely different and essentially opposite to what I had. So in effect I was asking them to make 2 big leaps, one to put aside their own positive experience with our parents and to replace that with my negative experience and imagine how they would feel if they were me.

In the same way that i simply cannot imagine what it would be like to have had a positive experience with our parents, i realise my sisters simply cannot imagine what it would have been like to have had a completely negative and harmful experience like I did.

And I think I have a similar situation going on with DH. I have had a very nasty negative experience of his mother. And i have been wanting him to see her from my pov. But that means him putting aside his own positive experience of her has a mother and replacing it with my negative experience and it is something he simply cannot do. I have been feeling very hurt at what i have seen as disloyalty to me on his part. As i have told him how awful his mother has been towards me and he has agreed she has been thoughtless and tactless although unsurprisingly he cannot bring himself to also admit she has been deliberately malicious as I know she has.

I remember a while ago my counsellor often saying that I was in a very isolated position and at the time I didn't really understand what she meant. But I know now. I do feel very isolated and alone wrt my experiences of my parents and MIL. Nobody else within my circle has had the same experience as me with these people. And i suppose what i have been trying to do by trying to make my sisters and DH understand and perhaps share my pov about our parents/MIL is so that I no longer feel so isolated or alone in how I feel. I want somebody to understand. But it is impossible for my sisters or DH to understand. I have realised there is no point in trying to make DH see his mother from my pov. But it doesn't mean he is being disloyal or condoning his mother's behaviour.

And once again I know it is yet another consequence of my parent's abuse. By singling me out to neglect and abuse I was always destined to be isolated and alone and this gives me yet another thing to hate them for. God, the list is endless. Alice Miller wasn't wrong when she talked about the endless mourning over losses one has to do; it really does seem endless. Always, just when i think that's it, I have sorted everything out, up pops something else.

And the feeling of isolation and being alone goes with me everywhere. Perhaps that is why i seem to love and crave time on my own. Perhaps it is better to just be alone than with other people and yet still feel alone, being around other people almost magnifies the feeling of isolation and makes it worse. Unless I meet people who have had a similar childhood experience. But even then, i have spoken to people who have been through similar to me, and yet i don't always feel a connection with them as frequently i realise they don't seem to have any real self awareness or insight. They are aware of what they went through as children and often have little or no contact with their parents, but the more we talk the more i realise they haven't actually done the same work on themselves that i have done on myself and that really we do not have as much in common as i first thought. So many people i realise are scared to really face up to the truth about what they went through and to realise the pain they experienced as children, they would rather keep themselves closed off from all of that and unknowingly they pass the same patterns onto their children.

Sorry for rambling on, just thinking out loud/tallking to myself again!

StartFresh, that is what this thread is for, and your therapist - places where you feel less alone because these people have some understanding of the feelings involved in what you have been through.

As you have said, if people have no similar experiences it is hard for them to empathise because they just can't imagine it and feel it with no experience to base this on. In this way it is not really their fault if they don't understand, however frustrating that is.

When I started seeing Therapist I realised that DH just wasn't 'qualified' to help me any more than he had already.