Our 6th visit to the Stately Home.....

[oneplusone]

Hi all, took the liberty of starting a new thread. Keep on posting!

AN, thanks for the credit , seriously I'm really really glad the chimp story was so helpful to you. It's funny, I shared it meaning it to be helpful to us in our relationships with our own mothers, but it's turned out to help you more re your own parenting; that's a great result though. Im struggling to post more at the moment, the stuff I'm dealing with now seems so deep that I don't know how to make sense of it on here - I sit here and I have absolutely no idea where to start, just want to cry. I'm just finding it hard at the moment, the family stuff - I often tend to think of myslef as the protagonist in all this, as if I created this situation and I am the one perpetuating it - and to some extent that is true in that I am the one who created the official, physical separation that now exists, and I am the one determined to uphold that separation, for the sake of my sanity, my own family's well being, my self respect.... BUT, but, but, but - seeing myself as the cause of it all is EXACTLY what they do and what they trained me to do. That's the whole root of the problem, isn't it? They have always cast ME as the one who is/has the problem, and themselves as the "normal", "straightforward", honest, rational, objectively "right" ones. It's exactly what you were talking about re your friend, AN - she's been made the scapegoat, she's carrying the can with all the family trauma that no one else wants to admit to being part of stuffed into it. Not through any fault of her own, far from it; but just because groups are like that, groups without honourable leadership, without a genuine commitment to integrity and caring, will devolve all the crap no one else wants to look at or deal with onto the nearest, weakest, available victim/scapegoat, the one who has least support from others, the one least able to fight back and say No, fuck off, I won't take your crap - the most vulnerable. The most vulnerable one is penalised for being the most vulnerable, as if that in itself were a crime. Skewed thinking? This is the really skewed thinking, amd I'd guess we were all victims of that in one way or another. AN, I'm glad at least that your friend has a friend like you, that must be worth an awful lot to her.

Anyway, the truth is - in my own old family situation - that while I am the one who has chosen the physical separation - to protect myself and give me healing space/breathing space to emotionally separate from them - they are the ones who have ALWAYS rejected me, profoundly and consistently. They don't want and have never wanted a relationship with me. Or my son or my husband. The problem I struggle with is that they make it look as if I am the one rejecting them - because they DO offer a relationship, but it's a totally conditional one, it's one where I am only accepted if I basically agree with them, if I accept them treating me they way they want to, however destructive that is for me; where I have to take them on their terms but they don't have to take me on mine. and in the past it worked like that, because they had all the power and I had none; I tried and tried to insist on my terms, and they would appear to meet me a little bit; but underneath it was always the same. so they drove me away. I wish I could give more particulars, this probably seems really theoretical and abstract, but that's all I can write about at the moment.

OPO, I know it feels like you're leaving it dangling, believe me I know! but trust me, you ARE actually sending a really clear message by saying nothing, by not being in touch with your sisters at all. I'm not saying don't write - you have to do what is right for you at any given time of course - but maybe before you write or send a letter, think about how you will feel once it's sent. what if they don't reply? what if they reply with yet another burst of "oh opo is always so over sensitive, she's just making it all up, she's paranoid"? (or words to that effect). Will you wonder how they will be thinking of you? Or if they will be? I suppose the thing I've learnt over time is that ANY form of communication keeps the relationship alive in some way, or at least that is true with my mother - I wrote to my parents to say I wanted a break from them a few years ago, and it made NO impact on them whatsoever, I can't stress that enough, NONE AT ALL. It didnt shift their thinking one little bit, it didn't elicit any more love from them, it didn't nudge them into thinking "oh something's seriously wrong here we'd better get ourselves together and sort this out, she is our only daughter after all". They just carried on pretending absolutely NOTHING was happening. It disgusts me, thinking about it now. Them, I mean. If I managed -god forbid - to alienate/hurt my son to the point he didn't even want to see me as an adult, I would stop at nothing to make things right between us, nothing. NOTHING could be more important to me in this life. So, anyway, opo - I know this is your sisters and not your parenst so not quite the same - but I just think it's worth preparing yourlelf emotionally for the various possible outcomes if you do write to them. The message you are sending at the moment is a silent "fuck you" which is pretty powerful in itself. But god yes I do know about feeling like it's all dangling, and I struggle with that all the time still myslef - but I've been back and forth so often now that I know that ANY kind of communication with my lot leads to further heartache and heartbreak and resolves absolutely nothing. We're looking for closure - but we're not going to get it from them. As pinky's therapist said, "why expect a pig to do anything other than grunt" - I LOVE that quote, thank you Pinky!

I have found now actually that when I get to the point where I'm feeling really low and vulnerable (and there have been quite a few of those lately) and I still can't quite belioeve that the situation is this bad and I cling to the idea that phoning my mother would help, at least temporarily - if only to scream abuse at her down the phone, instead of beating myslef up or taking it out on DS - so when I get to that point and I think OK maybe I should phone - and then I actually physically can't. There is still a part of me that desperately wants them to listen, as if the problem were just one of communication.... the greater, healthier part of me has given up, but this other part still hurts so badly. If we spend time with MIL, it hurts to think he should have a whole other extended family to adore him too - but he doesn't. When I am struggling at home on my own - and while it's a constant joy to be a SAHM, it's a constant struggle too, especially with all these issues I'm still dealing with - it hurts that I haven't got a loving mother I can at least phone for some support. It really hurts. I am so heartbroken that even though I've made my dream come true, I still can't experience the joy and the love and the normality of being a mother in the context of still being part of my old family too, a mother who is also a loved daughter and sister. Not that I ever was a loved daughter and sister, but deep down I always hoped that it would change, sooner or later; I had a subconscious wish that getting married would make them love me, which I only identified after they nearly destroyed my wedding day for me; and then even after that I had a subconscious hope that becoming a mother myself would make them love me, which again i only really managed to identify some months after DS was born. Isn't it hard being a mother without a mother? I have friends whose mothers live a fair distance away, but they speak virtually every day, and they feel so supported by them and if they go home to visit or their mothers come here, they get a real rest. I haven't had a real rest since DS was born; he hasn't gone a single night without waking several times and he's nearly two. Now I'm feeling angry about that - not with him of course (although it's hard to be always loving when you are so utterly desperate for rest) - because they are failing me here too. My mother lost her own mother before she married, and always took pains to tell me how hard it was for her not having her mother to help her when she had children herself - so you would think that would have made her more committed to being there for her daughter, to make sure I didn't miss out the same way she did, right? If she were a normal human being and not some kind of freaky machine, yes. She actually resented me having anything that she hadn't had herself, even central heating, lol!

I always talk more about my mother, but my father - eeyyuucch, too late to go there now, but not a nice man. To me. Very nice to lots and lots of other people - really not nice to me. I'm getting too tired, Rose, hi to you have been reading that alfie kohn book, some parts of it very useful indeed and already having an influence, so thank you very much for that; also thanks for your words re my niece, there has been development but it's still not good - too long a story for now though. Really sorry to hear about that horrible response you got from your adoptive father.

((((Pinky))))

Got to go. Beyond tired.

Bop, so sorry for forgetting it was you who posted about the chimpanzee experiment, and thank you to AN for pointing it out to me. The experiment seems to sum it all up for me, my parents used to me to protect themselves from feeling their own pain and instead made me feel it instead. It is so interesting that in that experiment iirc, only some of the chimpanzee mummy's stood on their babies, whilst others didn't. It shows that damaged parents exist in the animal world as well, not just the human world, and that the protective parental instinct is not always present, even in animals as i always thought.

PM, I know what you mean about starting to gradually feel like you are a grown up, a real and proper person with your own personality. I can relate to that so much, i feel the same. I feel I know who I am, like i have, to use that corny phrase, 'found myself'. Just like Alice Miller says in the title of her book, 'The Truth Will Set You Free; Overcoming Emotional Blindness and Finding Your True Adult Self'.

I feel so sad to read about what you went through at your parents' house whilst you were at university. No wonder you were unable to find your creativity in your studio when you tried to go and work in there, your energy must have been completely sapped just coping with the emotional and psychological abuse and cruelty and harrassment you were being subjected to.

I have found that the more i heal, the more creative i can be. In very small and not very noticeable ways. Eg I seem to be able to be more creative in the kitchen, i can adapt recipies or even make things up which turn out quite nice. In the past i was completely rigid, i had to stick to the recipe completely and was 'scared' of deviating in any way, i had to have all the ingredients otherwise i couldn't make the dish. I seem so much more relaxed these days, i will happily substitute ingredients, i don't get worried if i don't have all the listed ingredients, i have even been experimenting and completely making things up. I was far too scared to do this before. I know it doesn't sound like very much, but for me, it's such a big deal, because i love cooking and used to wonder how other cooks were able to be so free and creative in the kitchen.

Bop, thank you for your post about whether i should write to my sisters. And you are soooooo right. I am so glad i read what you said before doing anything. Me not responding to them keeps me in control. If i write to them then like you said, i will leave myself open to getting a nasty response from them or no response at all which will leave me dangling. This way it's them who are dangling and i realise now that my wanting to write to them was me, once again, thinking about them and their feelings instead of my own. ie i didn't want them to feel bad because they hadn't heard from me or to be left wondering why i hadn't been in touch. And i think you are right in that perhaps what was holding me back from writing to them was that i was a bit worried about their response or if they didn't respond and how it would make me fee. I totally agree that by simply not contacting them i am sending them a very clear message. And this is exactly what my youngest sister did to me when we fell out over me cutting my parents off and she clearly did it without a second thought to how it would make me feel. So she certainly doesn't deserve the consideration i seem to want to give her by doing her the courtesy of writing and explaining why i will not be in touch. Once again it is my instinct to think about other people's feelings over and above my own. It is only healthy to do that with people who will reciprocate, my sisters certainly never think about my feelings so i will no longer think about theirs. It is a hard habit to break, i have thought about them over myself for most of my life, 39 years. I don't feel entirely comfortable doing this but i know it's the right thing to do to protect myself.

Bop, I absolutely know what you mean here: "Anyway, the truth is - in my own old family situation - that while I am the one who has chosen the physical separation - to protect myself and give me healing space/breathing space to emotionally separate from them - they are the ones who have ALWAYS rejected me, profoundly and consistently. They don't want and have never wanted a relationship with me. Or my son or my husband. The problem I struggle with is that they make it look as if I am the one rejecting them - because they DO offer a relationship, but it's a totally conditional one, it's one where I am only accepted if I basically agree with them, if I accept them treating me they way they want to, however destructive that is for me; where I have to take them on their terms but they don't have to take me on mine. and in the past it worked like that, because they had all the power and I had none; I tried and tried to insist on my terms, and they would appear to meet me a little bit; but underneath it was always the same. so they drove me away."

I used different words, but i have posted the same thing, a while ago now. Now that i have cut ties with my parents, the 'external reality' finally matches up with my 'internal reality' ie how i feel inside and in my head, alone and apart from my family, not a part of the unit. Because that was how i was made to feel by their behaviour.

Bop, sorry my responses are so bitty, i keep finding more in your post that i can relate to. Again I COMPLETELY understand what you are talking about your DS not having your side of the family to love and adore him like your family in law do, i feel exactly the same wrt my DC's. I also totally know how you feel about how hard it is to be a mother to your own DC's but without having a mother yourself and the consequences of this, just like you have described, no emotional or practical support or help, no respite as it is really only one's own mother who would take on the responsibility of our DC's in order that we can have a break and rest from it all. And we are perhaps even more in need of a rest/break/respite than other SAHM's as, as well as the hard work of looking after young DC's, we are also doing the hard work of healing and recovering and repairing ourselves from the damage done to us in childhood, and this work is also very tiring, draining, and often painful.

I have been on the point of near collapse at times with it all, i have nearly been admitted to hospital twice because i was so run down my immune system was shot to pieces, i have been sobbing down the phone to my counsellor once because i was so ill, i couldn't even get to school to pick up DD, but i didn't have anybody i could call to help me out as i hadn't been able to make friends with the other mums, again, all because of the toll trying to deal with my issues was taking on me. It was so very hard, a double whammy once again, i was in this situation because of my family and yet they were the very ones ideally wanted to help me, and yet there was no way i could ask them without ending up back in my old situation with them as like you said, they were offering a relationship, but only on their terms which were damaging and abusive to me. Awful awful awful, i will never forget the anguish, despair, pain and lonliness i felt during that particular period of my life. I literally had NOBODY who i felt cared enough to help me. I had to somehow claw my way out of the black hole i was in, totally by myself, with no help or support, not even from DH who at that time had started a new demanding job and was consumed with that and was gone for most of the day and emotionally he was unable to help as well as my issues were causing problems between us too and we were very disconnected from each other. All in all, it was nothing but a sheer and utter nightmare. I remember DH was also run down and constantly getting ill as well during that time, so he couldn't look after me. Being ill and having nobody to look after you and nobody who even cares enough to phone and ask you how you are is hell and made me feel so sad; i felt if i had died nobody would have even noticed or cared.

Sorry to ramble on about myself, but what you wrote struck such a chord, especially looking after DC's when you have nobody to look after you.

rose - my DH wrote to my father and he doesn't have anything to do with me now but since I have spoken to him about 3 times in 37 years, I can live with it.

I am feeling very angry with my mother right now about what I posted about a few days ago.

Hi all. I find I am slowly telling DH more and more about my childhood than I ever have and also what I have been going through more recently in order to recover and try and repair the damage done to me by my parents. And I can't help but remembering a dream I had years ago, long before I had the DC's and before I had any real awareness of just how much childhood stuff I had buried inside me. In the dream DH and I were standing in a queue at the cinema and the only weird thing about the dream was that I was naked . I am still not sure what that dream might mean, but I am wondering if somehow a part of my mind knew even at that very early stage in our relationship, that one day I would 'reveal all' to DH, not literally in a physical sense as in the dream, but all my innermost deepest darkest secrets, thoughts and feelings. Because if that was the meaning behind the dream, it is certainly gradually becoming a reality and is no longer merely a dream.

I am constantly amazed at my dreams and at how 'predictive' they have always been. A part of my mind seems to be able to see into the future and see and realise things that my conscious brain takes years to work out.

Anyway, a revelation I made to DH very recently, before i had even really thought it all through properly for myself, is that I feel that because of my dad's verbal and psychological abuse, I was 'brain damaged' as a result. Or perhaps not brain 'damaged' but the part of my brain that is supposed to process certain emotions such as fear, did not develop properly, perhaps it shut down, perhaps it was damaged, or perhaps it just stopped developing and has remained til now in the state it was when i was 10. I also think other areas of my brain 'over developed' to compensate as I think my intellectual side is far more developed than my emotional side.

I think the level of fear i was exposed to as a child was far too great for my brain to process, it simply was not developed enough at age 10 to handle the terrifying experiences with my dad to which i was subjected. So my brain and body adapted by somehow managing to avoid processing the extreme fear and suppressed it, stopping it being processed as it should have been and thus not allowing me to consciously feel the fear i would have felt otherwise as the level of fear would have been too much for me to be able to handle and could perhaps have caused serious or even fatal damage to me. The body's instinct for survival means, I think, it will do whatever is necessary to avoid death. I believe it is possible for a child to die of fear and although it may sound melodramatic, perhaps that is what would have happened to me if my brain had allowed me to actually feel the full extent of the fear i know i would have felt as a result of the most terrifying incident when i was 10.

As it is i know i did feel some level of fear during that incident as i remember feeling terrified at the time, not only at what my dad was doing but also what he potentially could do to me if he wanted to and i knew there was nothing i could do to stop him, what can a 10 year old girl do when faced with a grown man attacking her, and also i could see my mother standing a few feet away, doing nothing to help me, nothing to stop my dad. I remember she looked terrified herself, and she was only watching, i was the one my dad was attacking, i can only imagine now, 29 years later, the fear i must have been feeling at the time.

I think I am not ready even now to feel that level of fear that i would have felt that day years ago. A few weeks ago, out of the blue, i got a very nasty and threatening text from that mum at school who i have been having problems with. I remember when the text came through and i saw it was from her and i read it, i started shaking and i felt completely terrified. Perhaps that text triggered my feelings of terror from the incident 29 years ago, but i think i wasn't ready to feel that level of fear even now as i remember consciously, but still, almost automatically, stuffing my feelings down inside me so i wouldn't feel them consciously in my brain, and i remember it took some effort to control the feeling of terror and to compose myself and to act normal, act like the text hadn't bothered me in the slightest and to even act a bit jokey and tough about it.

Then my eczema started flaring up after months and months of improvment and i have no doubt it was caused by the suppression of my feelings a week or two earlier. Then an incident with DH triggered the release of the suppressed feelings, and immediately my eczema started clearing up again.

This is the first time I have been so consciously aware of stuffing my feelings down and putting on an act of pretending i wasn't scared or bothered by what had happened. But before i stuffed my feelings down i remember feeling a little bit of fear and terror, enough to make me feel shaky and to make my heart race. I feel so sorry for the little girl that i once was who was made to feel the same level of terror, to the point where i must have been shaking, heart pounding, and not caused by the actions of some crazy stranger, but her own dad, whilst her mother watched and did nothing.

And it makes me so angry that my parents, in making this offer of money to me, seem to think they are doing me a favour and being so generous in wanting nothing back from me by saying the offer had no strings attached. They are not doing me a favour at all and they have no right to expect anything back from me, even if they gave me millions of pounds. Because they owe me, they owe me because of what they put me through, the damage they did to me which has taken me months and years of sheer hard work to try and repair and their audacity in offering me money as if it was an act of kindness and generosity on their part when they have taken so much from me makes me so angry.

And making the offer via my sister to make sure she was aware of how kind and generous they were being, even in the face of their ungrateful daughter who had so cruelly cut them off when they had, all their lives. been nothing but the kindest, most caring and loving parents that ever walked this earth, makes me hate them afresh all over again, when i thought could not hate them any more than i already did.

I am sure that is what is behind their so completely "kind and generous offer". Another attempt to show just how lovely they are, making such an offer and wanting nothing in return and if i accepted it, it would confirm just how nasty and ungrateful i was and how lovely and kind and selfless they were and had always been. They are trying to make sure that my sisters stay loyal to them and do not even contemplate cutting them off like i have, which is why, i am sure my parents have already given a substantial sum to my sister to help her with buying her house. I am sure she now feels completely tied in to my parents, she has to be loyal to them and 'love' them, no matter what she feels inside about them.

I am sure that deep down my parents may be feeling insecure about the loyalty of my sisters towards them. Now that my sisters are having their own children, perhaps my parents are scared that sooner or later they will start questioning their own childhood experiences just as i did once i had my DC's. And in order to prevent my sisters from cutting them off too, they have effectively 'bribed' them into staying close and loyal to them. I am sure my parents are not even themselves consciously aware that this is what they are doing by giving their money away like this, but i am sure that deep in their subconscious that is what is going on.

I am still contemplating accepting their money, because it will help pay for the DC's education and i feel able to take the money quite cold heartedly and feel no obligation to give anything back to my parents in return. I see the money as a drop in the ocean of the huge debt my parents owe me because of the damage they did to me and the endless losses they have forced me to endure and the hardship, pain and suffering they caused me, including the actual physical distress and pain and discomfort caused by my eczema. Even if they are not aware of this or would not agree with this does not change the truth of it.

v quick one, struggling so much to get enough sleep at the mo and was so late the other night when I posted - u nfortuanately I often only seem to get any headspace to write from when it's late at night - but I've been exhausted all weekend so have to try and keep it brief tonight - anyway, OPO, thanks for all your replies, and jsut wanted to say I can relate to so much of what you've written both in your posts that were replying to mine, as it were, and this new one too. I too keep finding I hate my parents more, just when I think I cna't hate them any more! I too have struggled with the money thing - have had to accept a lot of financial help from them in the past as they left me so incapacitated that I was never able to generate/earn enough money to live on myself, despite having quite a few talents and skills that had I not been so damaged and handicapped could have earnt me a great deal of money. More recently, my mother offered a few times to pay towards my therapy, and each time she baled out after just a couple of months, always found some excuse. The last time we spoke about it I made it very clear that if she paid it was to be seen as reparation for damage done, NOT them "helping" me out of the goodness of their hearts, because they're such loving, generous, concerned parents blah blah blah (oh I know that syndrome, OPO, I know it! I bet our parents would get on really well!!!); anyway, my mother appeared to go along with this but she obviously never really felt it in her heart, and when it became clear after a couple of months that this "blood money" wasn't going to stop me from being angry at them and hurt at all they'd done to me. hey presto the money stopped. So, even though she too said it was "no strings attached", it clearly wasn't. As usual, she was trying to buy me. I didn't get why you called it an "indecent proposal" type thing at first when you wrote about their offer, OPO, but then it clicked - yes, of course, it IS a type of prostitution! Emotional prostitution.

I really see your dilemma, and I feel for you in this. I don't see myself taking anything more from my parents now, but last time we spoke my mother did say they were planning to divide up most of what they have between me and my brother in a few years time, so if (rather unlikely now) that happens, I shall be in the same position. And I will find it as difficult as you to reconcile. YEs, they DO owe us, big time, and yes, we could certainly use the money - like you, it would be wonderful to have something solid put aside for DS's higher education, for example - but they would ALWAYS see it as them being generous and loving, and I think in my case there would definitely be strings attached. I have got to the point where I am prepared to forfeit my share of whatever there is to inherit when they die, even though it would be really, really useful to us, and god knows I deserve the compensation. My brother has been very successful financially, in a completely different league to me and has no real money issues - and how much of that is due to the fact he had someone to dump all his rage and venom and self hatred on all through his childhood and adolescence, and beyond? So he could actually function; so he felt that much better about himself. And more - somehow he was ALLOWED to succeed and be a normal person with a normal life: I do believe a lot of the abuse was not just what happened, physically and verbally, but also the unspoken messages that were drilled into me - that I had no right to a normal life, that I was somehow different to everybody esle, and less important, and that it was not only OK, it was imperative that I be constantly suffering in some way.

I dont' really know how to write about that stuff. It's so intangible. I just know it's true. i was brought up to believe that I deserved to be in pain, unsupported, isloated - alienated from everybody else somehow. And that it was somehow criminal of me if I DIDN'T want to accept that, and if I tried to make my life a better one. I can't emphasise this enough. My parents of cousre would deny all that most vehemently. they insist that I was loved and cared for; they even try to make out that they considered me "special" in some way and that I was treated better tahn my brother in many ways. Absolute bullshit; the way our respective lives turned out I think is proof of who got the most from our parents, but hard bullshit to challenge, especially when you've been fed on a diet of that since you were born. I wish I could verbalise and articulate this better, but it's murky.

OPO, you're right about the fear and the effect it has on your brain, I'm sure. As parents, we read about the effects of the things we do to our children; we were those children ourselves, and the abandonment, abuse, terror MUST have had an effect on our developing brains - the way all the pathways form and so on. The associations we made. How can we possibly expect ourselves to behave like healthy adults when we were those children who were deprived of what we needed in order to develop healthily?

Had better stop there before I get even more carried away and am on here till all hours again. Love to all. Oh, and Fab, I'm really glad to hear you're feeling angry at your mother - she bloody well deserves your anger, and I hope you aren't still feeling cross with yourself for hating her, that's a healthy attitude to have towards her! She abandoned and negelected you and then she came between you and people who would have cared for you better and so exposed you to people who abused you - there's a lot to be angry about.

Hi Oneplusone
You wrote:
"... my sisters certainly never think about my feelings so i will no longer think about theirs. It is a hard habit to break, i have thought about them over myself for most of my life, 39 years. I don't feel entirely comfortable doing this but i know it's the right thing to do to protect myself."

I am kind of going through these thoughts about empathy and my middle sister. For some reason my brain wants to think about 'what if' middle sister became seriously ill-and this is truly out of the blue. And I am to think 'well, she's had no empathy for me, why should I show her any' and then not quite say "so what?" but close.

"Emotional prostitution"-that is such a good summary of how we supply them, isn't it? That is the reason for all those gifts, exactly. Thank you!

I am reading The Emotionally Abused Woman by B. Engel. My dh, bless his heart, said he hoped he wasn't the reason for me reading the book. I asured him it was all about me and my crap childhood.

Sorry I have not been on the thread for ages. It was getting me down for a while there and I needed a break.

Bop, thank you

I still feel very angry with my mother and I don't think I feel bad. Has to be progress, doesn't it? I normally feel sorry for her but the anger is taking over right now and I just want to throw cold custard at her.

Fab That is real progress. I went through something a bit similar over my sis. Therapist did this thing with stones, you know, where you pick them out as people based upon their size, texture etc.then place them according to their relationship to you. I couldn't let go of the stone I had for my sis, I have spent so much of my life worrying about her, feeling for her,as Bop has said before, I was the one responsible for grieving for all her problems, and in that session I finally came to realise that I was not to blame, just becuase I had been born and 'cramped her style' as it were, and lots of events subsequent to my birth where I was blamed for things when really they were nothing to do with me. I realise now how manipulative she has been, how cruel she has been to me, and once I stepped back from our relationship a bit she showed her true colours. I hated her for quite a while, but now I am just letting go of her, I think. Well letting go of the idea of having a proper sister, if that makes sense.

What was done to you was very cruel. and I find it hard to understand how it was allowed to happen, so casually, and I think feeling anger, and allowing yourself to feel it without guilt, is crucial.

Bop "I do believe a lot of the abuse was not just what happened, physically and verbally, but also the unspoken messages that were drilled into me" my therapist has said to me that he thinks this is very much what has happened to me. These 'subliminal' messages have been absorbed by me just as you describe.

When you mother says you were 'special' etc, I can reltae to that, too. I was always happy, loving and caring, apparrently -That was what was decided for me, I suppose. Any 'demands' I made outside of this remit would be dismissed as unreasonable - there was no space for me to be anything other than empathic and compliant. THese aspects of my character were exploited to the point that I trusted no-one- I expected to be hurt physically, emotionally and my view of the world became skewed. I even believed I was a freak for being left-handed.
Now that I have a third child of my own, I can see my mother's scary mindset- my firsat two have their characters developing, my little DD2 is a happy, easy-going baby, and in my mothers insane twisted world that would be it for her- there is no space for her to be anything else.

My mother thinks she has loved and cared for me all my life. She is nuts. And I have arranged to see her this week. And possibly another appearence from father. Last time he said not one word to me. Not a one, except to shout at me for asking him very politely to offer the biscuit to my baby's hand instead of shoving it in her mouth. I don't want to see them. And I don't like the way these meetings disrupt me emotionally both before and afterwards.

oh gosh Pinky that rings so many bells. When I first tried to broach the subject with my parents their immediate response was "but you were such a happy child" - yes,I appreared to be most of the time because there was no space for me to be anything else. As you say, "Any 'demands' I made outside of this remit would be dismissed as unreasonable". SOOOOOOO true!! It's shockingly manipulative, isn't it - we will punish you for being anything other than happy, so you don't have any choice but to try and be fucking happy, and then we will use the fact that you appeared so happy to deny that we ever gave you grounds to be anything else! To twist and distort the truth/reality ad infinitum GOD I hate these fuckers, I am so angry... I am trying so hard at the moment to start getting on top of these bullies in my own head. But that's another deep and dark dredgy topic.

Back to their denial of our unhappiness at the time - there WERE actually fairly frequent occasions when I was clearly not happy - running from the table sobbing at teat time really often for example, in primary school years - and one particualar incident where I confided in my mother about the bullying I was getting at school and how I really couldn't cope with it any more and how desperate I was, all with uncontrollable crying, like a dam had burst - and these things were just completely ignored and dismissed, like you say they were just seen as unreasonable and so they didn't have to deal with them. And they could just pretend they never happened and nothing had to shatter their delightful image of our family as an idiyllic place in which to grow up. I want to vomit.

And of course my brother had all the prerogative on anger. I wasn't allowed any.

Actually, the "special" stuff came more often from my father than my mother - there was a creepy emotionally incestous thing going on there, he made me his mistress in an emotional sense, would confide in me and tell me things he had never told anyone else, even my mother - and then tell me that so I knew I was the "special" one. He is such a shit. There was no outright sexual abuse as such, but there were a couple of really awful things he did that bordered on a kind of sexual violence/control, and those two things scarred me for sure, maybe also because they were emblematic of our relationship in general. I think one of the reasons I stayed single for as long as I did was that they made it so that unconsciously I was emotionally "involved" with my father as I say in a kind of mistress role, I was tied to him and not actually free to form a healthy, loving relationship with a man for myself. So I always ended up with men who were unavailable in some way, because I was unavailable myself, but I hadn't a clue as to how that was all working for a very, very long time, and traditional counselling/therapy did bugger all to uncover that.

Pinky, I wonder if you could separate out the two parts of you re the issue of continuing to see your parents - one side of you clearly feels you have to or need to in some way, while another side absolutely doesn't want to. Could you maybe draw or model the two parts (you being an artist!) and give them some physical dimension, and then try and initiate a dialogue between those two parts? Just to see what comes out? Maybe it sounds completely nutso, but I personally can vouch for the success of this kind of approach, and it sounds as if you're really torn at the moment.

I don't think I will ever understand why the social services allowed this to go on for so long and were so stupid as to not see her manipulating them, and then when they did realise they let her carry on.

In the papers they talk about how for the last 20 years they have tried to keep families together as if it is a new thing. Rubbish. I am 37 so it has been going on a lot longer than that.

I had a good day yesterday and then felt low in the evening.

have to go to school now, can explain more later.

Thatnks Bop. I will try that tonight.

Fab I think you are so right- my mother for example has everyone convinced she is a devoted caring, loving mother. She is so clever at it. When the psychologist came to my house as a child (I had been referred by the school as they were worried about me), my parents put on a virtuoso performance of the concerned parents with a difficult young teenager. He seemed not to notice that I was wafer thin whilst the rest of my family were rather overweight and all my clothes were at leats 3 sizes too small.

I never saw him again after that. And I never told anyone anything was wrong at home. Not ever.

'

I should have explained what i meant by 'indecent proposal' re the money from my parents. I see like the offer in the film of the same name, they take the money thinking they can handle the questionable morals involved but it nearly destroys them and their relationship although they manage to pull it back together. I keep wondering if i take the money thinking i can handle the fact that my gut instinct tells me not to and just focus on the rational side that says it will help the DC's. But maybe it will destroy and unravel all my hard work in sorting out my issues. Accepting the money may stir up feelings i had never thought of and cause more problems than it solves.

I feel down today after a number of up days. I feel very sad and upset at how my sisters have been so unsupportive and do not believe that i really suffered because of our parents. Especially when i think about the past 2/3 years whilst i have been putting myself back together so i can try and function as a normal healthy person, something they take for granted as they were never attacked and nearly destroyed like i was.

I feel angry that they think i would cut my parents off, it's now been over 3 years, for nothing. It's true that they have no real idea of the nightmare that has mostly been my life these last few years, no idea of the emotional, physical and psychological toll sorting out my issues has taken not only on me but on DH, our marriage, the DC's individually and our family as a whole. But even so, without knowing any of that, i would have expected that they would realise that i would not have taken such a drastic step had i not been so deeply and continuously hurt, damaged and traumatised by our parents. And even before i cut off our parents, they were certainly not my dad's biggest fans, they were as critical of him as me on many occasions and my middle sister was always trying to persuade our mother to divorce him. But now all of a sudden, he's the good guy and i'm the baddie. I know, according to all the books that this is a very common scenario and my sisters need to maintain their illusion of loving parents as they cannot face reality etc etc, but it still hurts. Their reactions and behaviour have hurt me a lot and I don't think I'm quite over it yet.

Sorry to post and run, only had a few minutes just now.

Just a quick one, just want to say it's coming to the end of a long day with DS and much of it has been really lovely but i haven't had any contact with any other mums today at all and I find that really really hard. I'm still the more needy one in most of my friendhsips, even tho my friendships now are so much better tahn the ones I had in the past - I'm one of the only full time SAHMs I know (most work part time) and so have a lot more days to fill, and I find it's me texting/ringing other people more than the other way around,a nd that still really gets to me - I hate being so needy still, there's this abandoned child still really strong in me who goes round trying to find someone to play with (I can remember doing literally just that when I was about four, and how crushing it was when none of the other kids were available - my own family of course were all completely wrapped up in their own stuff and ignoring me as they very often did) - anyway, like I say, it just makes me really really angry that I'm still this vulnerable and helpless up to a point - even though the people I meet now are nice and decent and caring on the whole, there's still this imbalance, other people don't need me as much as I need them - the imbalance that was shaped by my childhood. sick as a parrot. Ds has just thrown ball at computer, pulled the front of my top down asking for a feed, and tried to dismantle the printer, so I think he wants some attention! I HAVE given him loads and loads and loads of attention today, and I don't think I should be worrying about him feeling the same way I felt - but it's hard not to. Bye, anyway.

I remember clearly one incident where I was feeling very low at school. I would have been around 13-14 years old Lets face it I was one of the school 'freaks'. I told one of the teachers that I felt life was too hard and seeemingly pointless. I went home, put on my 'acting normal' face and my mother tore strips off me because the teacher had rung her and how embarrassing it was etc. etc. I felt awful. I do not understand how I could feel so low one minute then just go all sort of numb and seemingly 'normal' the next. Is this normal? I have no idea. But I learned not to confide in anyone about my true feelings, becuase I could not trust them and they got me into trouble, and that teacher was so cross with me. I think I had already been hitting myself when I felt upset by that stage. I used to slap myself and bang my head against the wall- I would rage against myself for having these feelings- and I carried on doing this until fairly recently. Is this normal? I doubt it, but I don't really know.

I was bullied at school, at the bus stop, on the bus. I would race to get the first bus home to avoid some particular girls and would frequently wet myself on the way home becuase I didn't go to the toilet at school for fear of missing the bus. I was so lonely and would cry and cry. My mother would comfort me in her own inimitable way- which was to tell me 'what the trouble with me was' so all my flaws would be pointed out, explanations given as to why people would not want to be my friend, or else it would be how all people are horrible and nasty and should be avoided. All in very soothign tones, mind, unless she was bored with it then I would be told to stop feeling sorry for myself, or she would be in a rage and I would just hide in my room. SO yeah, mum, I'm sure it was a BIG SUPRISE when a teacher rang you to say I was unhappy at school. Not so long ago I talked to my parents about how I was bullied. My mother said 'you should have told me, we would have moved you to another school' huh?? what does she mean she didn't know? her ability to rewrite history is quite alarming.My father said 'people of character learn to rise above these things' thanks, dad.

All through this time I had virtually no day to day contact with my siblings, except for the ordeal that was mealtimes ('does she have to speak' etc.) I was very isoalted in so many ways.

When any of us went out in the evening, and we were a bit late, my father would bolt the door from the inside so we couldn't get back in. Then he would sit in the sitting room in the dark, getting drunk and getting angry. I remember my brother climbing up to my bedroom window to wake me so I could let him in. I remember my sister crying hysterically one time because she was locked out and some boys kept driving past shouting at her. I had to let her in. And my father was in When it happened to me there was noone else ther to let me in, so I just had to bite the bullet and ask father to let me in, and he would take his time about it.
The next day, you would get the silent treatment.

How do I avoid being like this with my own children? I feel such rage inside me and I fight it down as much as I can, but it is so hard. I have this feeling of being unable to cope, unable to read their feelings effectivley, a panic that, for instance my little DS is actually really unhappy at school and I am unable to read his true feelings, and he is unable to confide in me. Is he 'acting normal' for me, already? I have a terror of being like my parents.

Sorry for my ramblings.

smithfield-from your post I think you have overcome the reflex to justify or rationalize their abusive natures. Imho, you are at the point of truly sincerely disconnecting from them in every way.

I want to say that it may be a natural step in growing up (the phrase 'cutting apron strings' comes to mind)...but there is nothing natural about dealing with toxic people, especially parents/siblings. Dissolving the enmeshment is a significant acomplishment, and I am very happy for you.

Oneplusone, if you disconnect from your sisters, maybe you will feel relief instead of pain (fog). Can you give it a trial run? Don't announce it, just withdraw and see how you feel (try not to be concerned what they might feel).

I suppose the thing I really worry about is not that I am mean or cruel to my children, because I am pretty certain I'm not. What worries me is that my dysfunction is going to rub off on them.

Another thing I have been thinking about is that when I remember things I often remember how it was for my siblings, but not for me. Is this normal? Like that last thing about father locking us out off the house. It happened to me but the main significant memories are of me letting my siblings in when they were locked out. MY sister always says that she went thruogh a lot of horrible things and this made my 'ride' easier.This has had teeo effects

1. I feel that my problems are insignificant compared to hers
2. That she in some way suffered for me, and that makes me responsible for the things that happened to her.

Toomanystuffedbears- that is exactly the thing, isn't it. Getting free of the apron strings, as it were. Toxic parents like to keep their scapegoat trapped in the parent-child dynamic, adn this is what we need to set ourselves free from. I suppose this is why I feel ambarrassed talkign about how much I was in the control of my parents even after I had been away to art school- I had always longed to just leave and never go back and not to worry about what they thuoght of my life choices, but instead they have influeneced my every move, until now.

I guess part of desire to still see my parents is the hope that I can adjust this dynamic so that I am on an equal, adult footing with them, but is this a futile hope?

Soryr for typing I have DD1 on my lap! I hope you can make sense of it.

Hi all,

Have any of you seen the Daily Telegraph's section called "Lifeclass" recently?. (Just type lifeclass into their search engine on their home page and you'll find it). The lifeclass column is well worth a read anyway but I thought both Felicity's letter and the response to it would strike a chord with you all as well.

The columnist answers a question this week about her husband's toxic father and how to deal with him.

This is the link:-

www.telegraph.co.uk/health/6190357/My-husbands-father-is-drunkenly-abusing-us.-I-cant-take-his-bully ing-any-more.html

Pinky

I don;t think the dysfunction caused by your toxic parents will rub off on your children because you have what your parents never had - insight. You're thinking about it and are aware. Again two qualities your parents never had.

Would not be giving your parents the time of day. They aren't worthy of you or your time honestly, you're a million times better parent than they ever were to you and your siblings because you've all suffered differently at their hands.

with best wishes

Attila

tmsb, thank you. I want to disconnect from my sisters and I am trying to and I think I have made quite a lot of progress in this area but i don't think i'm quite there yet. As what they think still bothers me and if i was truly completely disconnected it would not bother me. But I don't know how to sever the final ties that seem to still exist.

Perhaps it's because my middle sister's baby is due any day now that I am still thinking about them. I am worried/wondering what will happen if i decide i don't want to go and visit her after she's had the baby. I don't feel I can go and see her and be all fake and act happy and excited and pleased. Of course i have nothing against the baby, it's my sister who i have the problem with. I would like to see the baby, i just don't want to see her.

I am glad i haven't written any sort of letter to either of them, i have just not contacted them at all but once the baby's born i know they will contact me and whilst it is fine not replying to everyday texts from them, i am scared of what will happen if i don't respond to a call/text from her about the birth of her baby. I know she will probably have the typical narcissistic response "How nasty and selfish of opo to not come and see me or congratulate me about my baby, she clearly doesn't give two hoots about me so i won't bother with her anymore". But the truth is that once upon a time i did care about her a lot, but she has hurt me so much and treated me so shabbily that she has destroyed my feelings for her. But of course she will never see it that way, in her eyes the fault will be all mine, i am being moody/selfish/inconsiderate, not because she might have done something to cause me to not contact her, but because that is the way i am, a horrible, nasty, inconsiderate, thoughtless, ungrateful person.

I am sure both my sisters look down on me and consider themselves superior because they treat my parents better than i do and they profess to care about them whereas i am just an unloving, ungrateful person, and that is just the way i am, my behaviour in their eyes does not have it's origins in the way our parents mistreated me, in their eyes it's just part of my nature to be a worse person than the two of them.

I can tell by what i have written just now that things are not completely resolved for me wrt my sisters, still some more work to do in that regard.

Oneplusone,
Not been on for a while but i had the same situation with my sister. She had her baby and i visited her after 3 months when i was in the area,. Oh yes I had the whole ' you dont care about me' ect etc...

When i had my baby two years later she actually said that she would visit after 3 months as thats when i had visited!

While I am on, hope i can get some advice. My relationship with my husband is falling apart and dont know what to do about it. We were so good but this past year its just going wrong. He said i am taking my anger out on him and i know that things he says and does is annoying me but think some of that is down to my past. For example i hate it when im not listened too and when he 'ignores' what i have said i blow up. I need to save my marriage...