Our 6th visit to the Stately Home.....

[oneplusone]

Hi all, took the liberty of starting a new thread. Keep on posting!

PM, could you possibly try and arrange to have a break from your parents? They sound as if they are causing you far more heartache than good, but am sure you know that already.

I know how hard it is to reach the point where you feel strong enough and confident enough to be able to live your life happily without your parents. So i am sure in your own time you will reach that place, but it is very hard along the way.

I know because i have been doing the same thing with my sisters. They cause me more pain than happiness but I am still slightly scared of the consequences of asking them for a break. The only thing I am sure of is that i cannot go on as we are right now. And unless they change, which is unlikely, we will do exactly that. So really my only option is to ask them for a break and hope in that time they take the time to reflect and make some changes. But i don't hold out much hope. In all these years i have never seen any sign in them that they ever think about anybody else apart from themselves. However, as they are still only in their early 30's, i think there is still time for them to change, unlike my parents and PIL who i know will never change.

OPO thank you for replying. I have been worried that I am killing the thread.

I saw my parents today. The agreed to meet us at a local park. My mother was fine with the children, once she had stopped trying to get my DS on his own the whole time and actually bothered spending time with my DD1. I had to keep correcting her negative comments about my DD1's confidence- she is a very brave and 'go for it' type of girl- but my father I could tell really did not want to be there. Mother had prolly forced him into it. He quite clearly cannot bring himself to engage with me or my family. My mother was very cold towards me, and never asked me one thing about myself or how I was. I really truly believe that the only people my parents really have feelings for are themselves.

I am hoping that is it now for a few months. I coped pretty well but it was hard.

My sister is ringing me over and over as well. I really don't want to talk to her. I have sent her texts and emails and suggested these are good ways for us to communicate but she wont accept this and phones about 8 times a day, always within the space of an hour, and then rings my DH at work at least twice. It is always at a time of day when I am dealing with things- teatime, for example. Often just don't hear the phone because I am in the middle of getting the children off a bus or something. SHe just doesn't get it. I don't think she really cares about what I am doing, all she thinks is that she wants to talk to me and therefore I should make myself available to her, and she is not very friendly about it.

In answer to your question, OPO, I do not think it would register with my sis or even my mother if I asked for a break. I don't think they actually pay much attention to what I say. The only way I have got things through re basic boundaries with my mother is by limiting greatly the access she has to me and my family, and by DH backing me to the hilt. She will never change, but I have forced her to accept some simple rules, which is progress I suppose.

I can see why people say that narcissistic people are not real- my parents did not really make any what I would call natural responses to things. It was all very controlled and artificial. But at least she did not throw any wobblies or shove me about or humiliate me. She did trot out the usual rubbish to someone she introduced me to.
The lady asked me if I had 3 dc under 3. I responded telling her the age gap of my DC, and she said she asked because her niece has and is pg with number 4. She asked me if I would like another and I said yes but it would not be a good idea for me, but I would have loved to have another. All the time I am talking my my mother is trying to talk over me in a loud voice, saying things like
my DC are close together because I had left it too late, that I am just addicted to having babies, and won't
like them so much once they are past the baby stage. I stood my ground, though. I just looked straight at the lady and said 'no, that's not correct, I wanted my DC close together, regardless of when I had them, and just sad the other stuff was not true. I was quite proud of myself- usually I would just laugh politely and withdraw from the conversation, so that is progress, too.

DH says he thinks she is just trying to promote her own agenda when he does this sort of thing to me in public.

I kissed mother on the cheek when we parted. It was quite funny in a sick sort of way, because she did not know what to do. She is a very cold fish with me. My dad had just got in his car already whilst we were putting the DC in their seats, he was quite clever about that, wasn't he?

PM, i am sorry to say your parents sound awful. I am glad for you that you stood your ground when chatting to the lady about your DC's. Things like that, if they happen continuously, will surely chip away at your mother and register in her mind somewhere. Although she will never change, perhaps she might try out new tactics on you if you seem to be standing up to her old ways of demeaning you.

Why does your sister keep ringing you? I can understand what you mean about your family just taking no notice if you say you want a break from them. But if you do say that to them, you just need to stand firm, stand your ground, and refuse to engage with them in anyway, until they finally get the message. I had to do that with mine. I even returned post from them, unopened, and they seem to have got the message. But they do still communicate via my sisters, but at least that is not as direct as a letter from them coming through my door. I used to feel sick as soon as i recognised their handwriting, and sick for days afterwards once i had opened their letters. They have stopped now thank goodness.

I saw my youngest sister for the last time yesterday. Although she was unaware it was our last meeting as i have yet to send her and middle sister letters telling them that i need a break and why. I had none of my ususal enthusiasm and excitement upon the prospect of meeting one of my sisters that i have always had in the past. I just felt dead inside at the thought of seeing her. I knew that she would be nice and pleasant, but i have finally realised now that it is all totally superficial and fake and underneath she feels nothing for me and in fact i think she hates me but won't admit it even to herself. Things went ok, i tried to force myself to act normal, although it wasn't always possible, i just pretended i was really tired as an excuse to explain my quietness and lack of cheerfulness. I think i realise now why i went through with the meeting when really it would have made more sense to just cancel it. I think i was giving her one final, last chance to show that she felt something for me, that she genuinely cared, just a little tiny bit. She showed me nothing of the sort, and instead proved the opposite, and showed just what she really thinks of me underneath the pleasant exterior.

For some reason i found myself telling her a little bit about the incident involving the mum at DD's school whose son was becoming over attached to DD. Even before i had really said all that much about what happened, my sister just said to me "Why didn't you just talk to the other mum instead of confronting her?". She just assumed i had been confrontational and unreasonable and took absolutely no notice of the highly unpleasant things the other mother had said to me. It all just went to show that no matter the circumstances, everything was always my fault, any problems or issues involving others were inevitably due to me in some way. In her eyes, which have been completely and utterly skewed by my parents, i am and will always be the bad guy, i will always be the one in the wrong. It seems impossible for her to look at any situation objectively and assess it fairly, even before i have really said anything, it was obvious to me she had already decided the whole incident had been my fault.

I thought today i would feel upset but actually i feel a sense of relief. Now i can finally admit to myself, and write down in a letter, all the things which my sisters have said and done to hurt me until now. I have felt the need to keep quiet about all these things and ignore them all the time we were in contact. I had to maintain an illusion that my sisters were nice to me and cared about me as that is the only way our relationship would have made sense.

Now i have finally stepped out of the whole tihng, i can fully admit to myself just how hurtful they have been over the years, sometimes deliberately and often thoughtlessly.

I always felt like i didn't belong in my family. I was always the odd one out. There were two couples, my parents and my sisters, who made a nice little foursome, square and even, and i was always the fifth person, with no place where i fitted in. And so it makes perfect sense to leave all four of them to each other, and for me to step out of the whole thing. I always have been on the outside anyway, that's how they have all made me feel, in their various different ways. But instead of being pushed away by them, i feel i have made the conscious decision to step away and to stop myself from being continuously hurt by them. I feel ok today, but i wonder if the full impact of what i have decided to do will hit me later on.

It's sad to say though that life will not actually be that different from now on. I hardly saw my sisters anyway, even though they seem to see each other all the time and talk regularly. The only difference now will be that i will not be constantly and anxiously waiting for some contact from them, hoping they will want to meet up with me etc and then of course, the inevitable disappointment at the cancelled meetings, or the hurtful/thoughtless/careless/sneering/accusatory remarks if we did meet/talk.

Hopefully, this new situation will take a little bit of getting used to, but after that, i think my only regret will be like with my parents, that i should have done it sooner. I certainly hope so. My gut feeling tells me i am doing the right thing. They have nothing to offer me and i think i have finally realised it.

OPO I can so relate to all you have said. Even the 'confrontational' comments from your sis- just the sort of thing my family would say.

Well done you for making the decisions that are right for you, and good luck with it. Hopefully if you ever waver youcan look back on your last post and see that you made a very considered decision.

I don't know what to do about my parents. I think instead of just correcting her quitely toother people when she says these things I have to get to a place where I can quite boldly say 'what on earth are you talking about mother, you must know that isn't true' to really put her back in her box, but I know I am not there yet.
The thing I do know is that she may be behaving a bit better but she is doing nothing to try to fill the gaps in our relationship- the gaps that have always been there- big gaping wounds in a way- the gaps that I have always twisted myself out iof shape in an attempt to fill.

I have no messages from her saying how nice it was to see us yesterday, or anyhting of that sort- none of the little things that might show even a small amount of affection for me. It's like you say about your sister- any sign at all that there is anything real in terms of love or care or empathy- we wait and it's a real tumbleweed moment, isn't it?

Good for you for having the strength to walk away.

PM, thank you for your post. I think you will one day reach the point where you are able to speak to your mother as you have described. It will be a positive step for you, as long as you are aware that she is unlikely to change, even if you behave differently around her.

My sisters seem to get really annoyed whenever I have changed my usual response to them. ie when i have stood up for myself. It's almost an opportunity for them to really lay into me. In the past if they have done something to upset me i have always just kept quiet and kept my feelings to myself and my hurt inside me, recently when i have 'dared' to voice my thoughts and feelings to them, they have told me i am being negative, oversensetive, etc ie all the classic responses from toxic people. Not once have they ever shown even the tiniest bit of care or concern for me or how i am feeling because of them or even due to other people's actions towards me. They simply do not care about me at all. The penny is finally dropping. They simply do not care about me, all this time, it should have been so obvious because of the many many many cruel and nasty ways in which they have treated me, but i have been blind, partly because they have always 'camoflaged' (sp)themselves in their 'nice' persona, and I have never been able to see through it til now. I actually feel quite silly now, about just how blind I have been. My sisters must have thought they could say or do anything to me and I would not say a word back to them, or stand up for myself at all, which is exactly what has been happening. I suppose my parents should have stepped in and put a stop to their bullying and tormenting me, but of course that was never going to happen. All four of them were in cahoots against me, they all supported each other in putting me down and blaming me for anything and everything, and they all validated each other and even now I'm sure they all truly believe it's me and not them who is in the wrong.

I am so glad now i finally made this decision to have a break from my sisters. I somehow made myself believe that they would be on my side and support me and not our parents, but now i feel so foolish. They are very very firmly on my parents' side and totally against me, no matter how pleasant they appear to be when we do meet. But there are always little 'giveaways', little 'telltale' signs that I have been completely ignoring and closing my eyes to. Now that i have opened my eyes, it all seems so obvious and clear, i don't know how i could have thought any differently.

Sorry, am rambling now, will sign off.

I've had a load of posts deleted because someone who knows me too well, who will soon have internet access would know I was the poster if they read them. I know it is a bit paranoid and 'fearful/weak' to do this when it seems unlikely to happen but I am not taking any chances that the wellbeing of me or DCs/DH could be in danger even if there is only the slightest risk. At one time I would have worried about this being a 'weak' thing to do, but now I am not worried about this and not ashamed of doing what I think is best and easiest for me.

It is a big relief and kind of marks a new phase for me. It felt therapeutic to discard this stuff, like saying to myself "I don't need you in my head anymore, I'll make space for things that are more worthwhile!". I have a load of stuff on paper which I will also burn the next time I have some spare time.

I might even change my username!

I'm incredibly grateful for Mumsnet for how much it has helped me and to the Mumsnet staff who deleted the posts (have emailed them).

I'm also really grateful to all of you on here whose words have inspired and sparked my thoughts and speeded up my processing of things.

I better spend some time with DH now but will be back when I can to comment on people's posts instead of just drivelling on about my own stuff.

Hope you are all ok x

I burned a load of letters and some writing I had done yesterday and it felt good! I must be making progress if I just felt the urge to do it and didn't feel any need to hang on to them anymore. It felt satisfying and felt like I was tidying up my life and getting things done.

I've just been to see Therapist and had a really good talk. I felt ok I just felt the need to talk and get all my new positive thoughts fixed in my head by telling someone and seeing signs that he understood and agreed with what I was saying.

I was going to 'end it' today (the sessions) but I can see that I just have a tiny bit left to do. It's about the anxiety. I realised that the things that are causing me to have anxiety lodged inside me are all the little things that happened which I immediately tried to block from my mind. There were certain events which scared me so much at the time, or horrified me or made me feel so bad about myself, that I made a decision there and then to put it out of my mind and refuse to think about it. I felt that if I thought about it I wouldn't be able to handle it and wouldn't be able to carry on and act normal. I pretended to myself that what just happened never happened.

We worked through some of it last time we did EMDR and I actually felt scared during the EMDR. Afterwards I felt foolish that the things I had been scared about might not seem all that scary to an adult. But the fact is that when they happened I was NOT an adult, I was a fearful child. The fear I felt during the EMDR was not what I would feel as an adult now, it was how I felt as a child then. I had not allowed myself to think about it in depth so I was still scared that it might somehow happen again and that it would be just as scary as back then. When I really thought about what happened in depth I realised that as an adult, if it happened now I don't think I would feel the same and would be able to handle it so much more easily than back then (it may not be easy but it would be easiER). This took some of the fear away.

I'm hoping that going into some of the other events during EMDR will have the same effect til I feel a lot less fear and feel I have released some of the emotions while with someone I trust (Therapist). He thinks that we won't have to do ALL of the things but when we do a few, the effect will "daisychain" and it will all sort itself out in my head because of association of ideas etc in the brain. He said "I'm afraid we will have to go into some of the things that cause you distress" but I'm up for it, I just want to go for it and get it done.

He got his model brain out again and explained again about how you hold memories in the most primitive part of your brain - where you first feel your fight, flight or freeze feelings and if they don't get transferred to your frontal lobes where things get put into logic and made sense of, they don't get released from the primitive part of your brain. If you don't allow yourself to think about what just happened the memory doesn't move to the front of your brain to get processed. The feelings from the blocked events can then be triggered by little things that remind you a little bit of what happened and you can get scared of things 'normal' people wouldn't be scared of or feel feelings which most people would feel are too extreme for the event that happened in the present.

He said you can store memories as thoughts but also as emotions and feelings in the body. This means that you can have 'somatic' memories (memories of how the feelings from an event felt physically in your body) even if you don't remember in words/thoughts what exactly happened or you are in denial about what happened. Even if you can't or won't remember it all, the feelings and sensations in the body can still be triggered.

We were then talking about whether people who have hurt people in the past and felt no empathy for them while doing it (which allowed them to do it without guilt stopping them) can change. I'm still undecided on this but his explanation for one of the people who hurt me is as follows: When you are born you look for an attachment to the person whose smells, feel and sounds are familiar to you (from inside the womb). If that person is absent or unresponsive this causes anxiety and if the baby still fails to bond to that person or another person over time he/she doesn't learn how to have a relationship with another person. They then see themselves as separate and see everyone else only in terms of how they impact on them personally, not in terms of how the other person feels themselves. Therapist thinks that if the person doesn't learn empathy at this stage then they will be damaged forever and will never be able to truly feel empathy! They might act like they care about you just to manipulate you into doing what they want you to do for them.

The parenting of that person must have been truly truly crap if this is true! I thought the parenting of me was crap but I do feel for other people and can't do the slightest thing that I think might upset someone without feeling really guilty. This must mean that SOMEONE did something right with me!?

My birthmother was highly stressed and cried all the time after giving birth to me but did bottle feed me every four hours before nurses took me back to another room (this was probably how it was done with all babies in hospital back then?). I might have bonded with her a bit? Then I was taken away from her and given to temporary foster carers and I don't know anything about them but in the description my parents were given before deciding to adopt me it said that I smiled readily. Maybe I bonded to them? I was then taken away from them also to go to my adoptive parents. My parents were emotionally not very expressive at all compared to most other people's parents I knew/know but not completely devoid and not intentionally cruel. They must have not been totally and utterly useless!

I wonder what the person who hurt me's experience of carers was. I don't imagine his birthmother to have been completely cold because she handed some baby things over with the baby eg a teddy bear and some clothes which she thought he would find familiar and comforting. I don't know whether he had any interim foster carers and what they were like. He was his adoptive mother's first child so she didn't know what she was doing and that might have made her less relaxed and less expressive. He might have been born with something wrong with him but I don't like to think that any baby is born horrible, I feel that something must go wrong after they are born if they turn out as someone that does evil things.

I wish I knew everything! I wish I knew exactly what happened but I can never know! I guess it doesn't really matter though does it.

I do know that I don't NEED that person who hurt me in my life but I used to think that I did. I wanted someone who I could feel was part of my family who I had bonded with deeply. I used to crave this bonding so much that I allowed myself to bond with people whether they were 'healthy' people to have relationships with or not. It is too mind bending to have a deep relationship with someone who has caused you long term emotional damage though. Having bonded and then realising it is unhealthy and trying to detach is PAINFUL. Breaking bonds HURTS. (It might remind me somewhere deep inside of me of being taken away from birth mother then foster carers? But probably this sort of thing hurts everyone whether they were adopted or not). This is why you must be discerning about who you let yourself bond deeply with. Now that I have some good people in my life and appreciate them (can finally see them instead of being blinded by always feeling I need more and must look for something more because I couldn't accept that the gap I felt in me was never going to be completely filled), I realise that I don't need unhealthy relationships in addition to the good people. I need to break away and fight through the 'withdrawal symptoms' like coming off an addictive drug.

(The same way I had to break away from a relationship with someone that was getting too intense to be healthy for my marriage and I should have realised that and not let myself get that close in the first place but having got close it was incredibly painful to completely detach but detaching made things better in the long term.)

The guilt I feel about abandoning the person who hurt me when they want my help now is lessening as I face up to how much he hurt me and other people and realise that he knew that what he was doing was wrong and feel more that he deserves to face the consequences. I also realise that it is not my responsibility to help and I should be important enough to myself to decide not to put myself through doing loads to help if that is going to cause me stress and distress from contact with him reminding me of past events that I find difficult.

As I have had a load of posts deleted please would anyone who knows details about the person I'm talking about (from the deleted posts) not write anything in response that gives away much detail about who he is and what happened. I don't want the possibility of him ever identifying who I am in RL in the unlikely event that he read these threads.

AN, i responded to your post on 3 Aug but managed to lose the whole post. Sorry! Thank you for your latest post. There is a lot in there that is very helpful to me.

What your therapist said about memories being trapped in the primitive part of your brain holds so true for me. I think my brain is almost hard wired to not move memories/feeling to the front part of my brain to be processed and then released (?) as i think i still do this. ie if somebody hurts me i don't allow myself to think about what is happening/just happened, i completely block out my feelings and they remain unprocessed and then get triggered by other events.

I totally understand what you are saying about bonding with the wrong people and then trying to detach being painful. I realise I bonded with my sisters in this way, but it was an extremely unhealthy attachment for me to have as my feelings were not reciprocated at all. So i felt i needed my sisters but they did not feel they needed me at all. And so they were able to be completely careless, uncaring and selfish and even cruel in the way they treated me. I accepted being treated so badly as i felt i needed them, i wouldn't be able to cope without them. It has taken me a long time, but i have managed to detach myself from them now and with detachment i have even more clarity. I can see just how uncaring and in fact just how detached they themselves feel from me. They feel no connection with me, they do not see me as another sister, i am a seperate person they are obliged to have a relationship with, but for whom they actually feel nothing.

When i was in the process of detaching from my sisters i found myself feeling this urgency to make some new friends. I thought about this and realised that i was immediately looking to fill the gap that would be left by my sisters. But my sisters were themselves filling the gap left by my mother. And so i realised it was futile. Neither my sisters nor any friends could or would ever fill the gap left by my mother. I gave up trying to make new friends and i am trying to learn to live with the gap. I feel that if i try and fill the gap with other people, eventually i will be hurt and disappointed as those other people can never take the place of my mother. I feel i need to learn to live with never having had a mother and to have far more realistic expectations of my friendships and to not be so desperate for friends that i fall into the same trap of making friends with anybody who will have me and then allowing myself to be treated badly/used/manipulated and then of course feeling hurt that i have been treated so badly by somebody who i thought was a friend.

So i am not rushing around trying to establish friendships out of desperation as i have been doing in the past without realising it. And so far, living with the loss/gap does not feel too bad. I hope by doing this i will be able to establish healthy friendships, unlike those i have had in the past. I suppose i am describing what you term as withdrawal symptoms, once you get past those, you emerge much healthier and without that desperate craving that impairs your judgement so badly.

I also understand what you mean about feeling responsible for trying to help other people who you know have issues. I felt at one time i couldn't detach from my sisters as i felt i needed to help them, it was my responsibility. I felt especially responsible since my youngest sister had her baby as i felt she would pass on her issues to her child and it was up to me 'save' her child from being damaged. I have finally managed to let go of feeling it is my duty to help my niece. It is my sister's duty to sort herself out for the sake of her daughter. Although perhaps my youngest sister has the least issues of all of us as she was treated far more 'normally' than me and middle sister. I am cutting ties with middle sister before she has her baby which is due soon, and again, i no longer feel i should keep in touch with her in case i can help her in some way.

Thanks to oneplusone I have been redirected here. I have scanned a few messages and feel it will be the right place.

Not sure what to do now so i will post how i feel and hope someone can offer words of widom. Appologises if i havent read much but i have a baby and so my window for posting is not long!!!

I have always had a problem with depression but up until the past few years felt i have been able to control it. But a family incident happened and it just seems to have unleashed the demons and there is no going back.

I suffer because i feel very moody have anger and just dont feel happy anymore, yet because i function i.e. am out and about with friends, eat etc the mental health teams seem to thinnk im not depressed.

I am desperate for help as my marriage is suffering and ill be damned if i let me past ruin my future.

My parents divored when i was 12, my sister went to live with my dad and me with my mum. Lots of things happened, games were played and i dont think i showed or new myself how i felt about it until later on in life.

My sister has always been 'demanding' whilst i have been very independant. My dad and sister have always been close and my mum and I were up until a few years ago.

A family situation occured - long story but i was ill and we were meant to be doing something nice for my dads birthday, i oculdnt do it but was screamed at bu my sister saying how selfish i was, i wasnt ill just lazy... I had a breakdown.

I sorted it with my dad the following day, he said he didnt think that of me , i felt better. He then went back on his word weeks later saying if i didnt appologise he couldnt have the same relationship with me. Desperate foe a family and with my 30th party coming up i telephoned.
She was then Ill and couldnt come to my party.

Fast forward and i got engaged, didnt ask her to be bridesmaid but asked her daughter. She went wild, dad said he dint know if 'i can come and walk you down the isle and say nice things about you when i dont mean them'

I was distraught but no way was i going to give in this time.

It has not been the same since. My sister say her kids no longer wants to stop at my house as i hurt her too much and me and my dad are fine but i am still so hurt by it all.

My mum and me are not as close as i am so angry with her. She said to me she never expected me to choose her but that she wants a relationship with both of us so does want to hear anything.

Its always been the same, no communication (my sister wont speak about how i feel) and mum sweeping things under the carpet.

I now have a baby. Just dont know what to do anymore. I want my family, thats all i have ever wanted but i am angry it takes over. Just feel they are being selfish, my mum is all over my daughter yet knows i suffer with depression and never asks me about it. When i try and talk she shrugs her shoulders. My dad doesnt want to know about issues i have with my sister either.

Think i have rambled on enough but hope this gets the ball rolling on here..

Thanks!!!

Oh and forgot to say, it affects my marriage as i seem to be so angry and horrible at my husband and hes done nothing wrong..

I have been thinking a lot recently about how i must come across to people. I hsve had 2 friends now who although they appeared to be friends, would clearly always instantly think the worst of me in any given situation. ie if my words or actions could be taken one of two ways, they would not give me the benefit of the doubt and believe that i had the best of intentions in whatever i had said/done even though at first it may have appeared careless/thoughtless. They readily and instantly jumped to the conclusion that interpreted what i had done with bad intentions on my part. Eg. recently a 'friend' was trying to call me, she tried a number of times and also sent me a text. None of her messages got through as unbeknown to me at the time, my phone was not working properly. So i didn't call the friend back and she immediately thought i was rudely and deliberately not calling her back as there was something wrong and i was annoyed with her about something. In fact the real reason i didn't call her back was because my phone had malfunctioned and hadn't got her messages. I was not annoyed with her about anything; there was no deliberate bad intention on my part. So why did she immediately think there was? She and I had known each other for over a year by then and had, or so i thought, become fairly close. I had even talked to her about my family issues and she had talked to me about hers.

Then there was another friend, who i had known for around 20 years. She was going through some problems in her life and i suggested that we go to see a film. I meant it as a way of taking her mind off her problems and forgetting her troubles for a while. She took it as me being thoughtless and uncaring and casually wanting to go and enjoy ourselves at a movie when i was actually thinking of her when i made the suggestion.

Why do i come across this way? Why do people always seem to take my good intentions badly and in the wrong way? Why are people unable to see the real me? I am always thinking about other people, how they are feeling, i try and help them out if i can, but it all seems to go unnoticed and people just seem to see me in the worst light possible. I must project myself in such a way as to make them think this about me. Or have i just always had unhealthy relationships until now with people who were only out to use/manipulate/abuse me?

I find myself feeling so wary of people now. I don't want to make new friendships for fear of being hurt. I don't trust myself, nor other people to see me for who i really am. I think even DH couldn't fully see the real me. He, like so many of the others, saw me in the worst possible light and as having the worst intentions a lot of the time. I think he is now slowly beginning to see that i am not the person he thought i was and i feel he seems to have more respect for me now than he used to.

I feel very hurt by the 'friends' i have mentioned above. I feel i did nothing during the time we were friends to deserve to be treated so badly by them. I always tried to be a good friend and indeed i was a good friend. I was always there and willing to help if i could, i was willing to listen and be a shoulder to cry on when they had problems. I felt i gave a lot in the relationship and all i got back was a kick in the teeth. And the same goes for my sisters. I always tried to be a good sister, i helped them out whenever i could, i was kind, generous, considerate of their feelings. And what did i get in return, nothing, just a slap in the face and told i was being oversensetive when i said i was hurt at being told weeks after younger sister that middle sister was pregnant. No doubt if i write to them now and tell them i am upset about various things in the past i will be told to stop dragging up the past and i should just move on.

My 'friend' who i had confided in about my childhood issues has used the information against me and mentioned it to somebody else in an effort to discredit me and make out I am mad/sick and should be taken no notice of. All this because i had concerns about her son becoming obsessive/possesive about DD. The friend is unwilling to look at her son's behaviour and admit there is something to be concerned about, she would rather make out that it is me who is crazy for pointing out his behaviour does not seem normal for a child so young.

I think for the time being, i am going to steer clear of trying to make friends. I will just have to put up with feeling lonely for a while i suppose. I think it's got to be better than being treated so hurtfully as i have been by these so called 'friends' and my sisters.

I am sure that all these problems i am having with my female relationships stem from my mother's rejection of me. She has such a lot to answer for, and yet she is swanning round as if she is the victim in all of this.

sb9, what you have described sounds so very like me around 2-3 years ago. Your family sound highly dysfunctional (am sure you have realised that for yourself already).

I think to start with, it might be a good idea for you to read some books. Toxic Parents by Susan Forward is a good one. And do you think you would be able to see a counsellor? A good counsellor who is trained and experienced in dealing with adults who were abused/mistreated/neglected as children will be invaluable to you.

In my case, i decided to cut all ties with my parents just over 3 years ago. The abuse from childhood was being continued in adulthood, albeit in a more subtle way, and like you i was getting angry at DH when he had done nothing wrong and also very angry at DD and she had certainly done nothing wrong.

It has taken a long time and been very hard at times, but i can honestly say that my angry outbursts are gone and that alone makes life much better for my DH and DC's.

I feel i need to counter what I said earlier wrt friendships. Because as well as the 'bad' friendships, i do seem to also have some 'good' friendships where the other person does seem able to see the real me and knows who i really am, who does not misinterpret my intentions negatively. So how is it that some people see me as 'bad' and others seem to see me not necessarily as 'good' but appreciate that i do try my best to be kind, considerate, helpful and generous although i do also have my bad days like we all do. When i think about it, all the 'friends' who seem to only see me as bad are people who have serious and deep rooted issues of their own, dating back to their own childhoods. Both the 'friends' i mentioned earlier who immediately thought i had bad intentions towards them when i didn't, i know had awful childhoods and experienced abuse and neglect like me. In fact it was our similar childhood experiences that drew us together initially, but of course, if those friends had not resolved their own issues, and if we met and became friends at a time when i was needy and desperate seeking a female attachment figure, then i can see how it would develop into a very unhealthy relationship on both sides.

I find it very hard to stop forming these attachments to female friends though. Another person i met recently i can see i formed a very quick attachment to so my neediness is still there. But i am much more aware of it now, and can take a step back and see what i am doing. Whereas before i would meet a new 'friend' and immediately feel very close to them and feel happy that i had found somebody who seemed to care about me. I can see now that all along, it was the child inside me who was desperately seeking a mother, who kept forming these attachments to anybody who showed the slightest bit of kindness and friendliness towards me.

Im going to get the book tonight as i have read reviews on it.

Yes i agree i had a highly disfunctional family and it took me years to realise this. I hate to say anything negatie about them especially my mum.

I have started with a counsellor who is back from holiday end of August so cant wait.

Just hard as they are not so dysfunctional i would want to cut my ties, it is so messed up.

I mean my mum is just guilty of someone who sits on the fence, wont get involved.. she wouldt hurt a fly but her incability to be able to stand up for me has just left me raging inside. She is lovley but its just i feel she is selfish for loking after her needs in that she doesnt want to get involved in anything so she can have a relationship with both my sister and I.

Fair enough but my sister has said and done some horrible things, always backed up by my dad and so i feel very much alone.

Example of one thing. Apparently when i was 12 i wouldnt walk to school with my sister. Ok yes not nice, but i was a kid and even now in adult life in an arguement my sister says how i rejected her, made he feel terrible and my dad says how nasty i was etc etc. It just doesnt seem 'normal' behaviour.

Oh and i can understand your thoughts re friends. I had the breakdown when the straw broke the camels back with my dad and sister (and somewhat my mum) as the mere thought they they thought i was elfish, lazy and manipulate when i dont have a nasty bone in my body just crushed me.

I worry i have upset people when I havent, worry too much what others think about me, try to be kind and helpful to all and get so let down when others dont think of me enough ;(

sb9 your mother may seem lovely, but by sitting on the fence and doing nothing she is neglecting her duty towards you to act/speak up for you when you need her. That is the job of a parent. It often helps to imagine your own DC's in situations you have been in like the walking to school incident. Would you now tell your DD she was nasty for not wanting to walk to school with her elder sister when she was 12?

I am glad you will be seeing a counsellor and are going to read the book i mentioned.

It's ok if you don't want to cut ties with your family, there are people on here who have and those who haven't. Each of us are in individual situations, we all need to do what feels right for us. Nobody on here will ever judge or criticise you for making a decision that is right for you as only you know how you feel and what you have been through.

I can totally relate to what you said here "the mere thought they they thought i was elfish, lazy and manipulate when i dont have a nasty bone in my body just crushed me." This is exactly what my dad and sisters seem to think of me and it's just so far from who i really am, i felt crushed, miserable and despairing when i heard their opinion of me. But that was 3 years ago and although it still hurts to know that is how they see me, i know now that it's not because i have in any way behaved in such a way as to give them good cause to think those things of me, it is 100% them and their projecting their own traits onto me as they don't want to face up to who they really are themselves. This i am sure applies to you too, but it may take you a whle to see it and to truly believe it.

OPO, just had to respond to your posts re other people and their mis-perceptions of you, judging and blaming wrongly - wow, I could have written so much of that myself. I know EXACTLY where you're coming from. It's not really the case now, thankfully, I hardly ever get that from anyone in my life now, but in the past it was nearly always the case. And everything you say about being there for others, being supportive, doing everything you could to be a good friend/sister/auntie etc - check, check, check. And then STILL being treated as if you are the bad guy!!! wow. it's just so crap, isn't it? And so hard to believe it's NOT you when everyone or nearly everyone around you treats you like that. I can remember so many incidents of "friends" i cared so much about, supported so much - one who told me once that I'd virtually saved her life, by keeping her talking on the phone after she tried to sign off because I was so worried about her, and really listening to her - she said later that she had been suicidal or really close to it at the time, and my talking to her had really helped her get through it, when no one else around her was listening to her or cared - and loads of other times I was really there for her too - and then like all the others she stabbed me in the back when I was the one whose life was falling apart, and gave me a hard time for being "depressing" when my baby nephew had just died. Later she was part of a group who completely ostracised me at the time when I was most vulnerable because I "hadn't behaved properly". What a witch, what a nasty bunch. These were the kind of people I used to attract as "friends". And yes, she had a shitty, abusive childhood too (and thought my family were wonderful and I was so lucky to have them, because they covered their abusive tracks so well that she was completely taken in, like I was myself.) The most important thing for me in all this was recognising that the pattern originated with my family. They were the ones who started judging me, seeing me as someone I wasn't, telling me I was bad and uncaring when in fact I couldn't have cared more about them, and THEY were the ones who didn't care.... they were the ones who set up the pattern to be repeated over and over again, and once I started blaming them and believing more and more in myself, I started making new friends who see me much more as me. OPO I can also so relate to what you say about that desperation, that need to fill the gap - I know it is still there in me, there are still days when I am desperate to see or talk to ANYONE, and there is still a lack of parity in some of my friendships because of that - but like you, I am learning to live with the acceptance that I will always be someone who grew up without mothering or real mother love and that that can't be changed. All I can do is try and mother myself as best I can, now, in the present; and I really do take that very seriously - hard with a very high maintenance DS! - but I do make time to sit down and "listen" to myself, like a mother should do with a hurt child.

Hello to sb9, and hello to you all, have been away for a bit hence not posting, as usual would like to respond to ten times more things on here than I actually have the time or energy to do, but am reading as often as I can.

I am still trying to read the backlog of posts on here but this really struck a cord

"I am so sick of being the one cast as the bad guy, the one who "hurts" my parents, the one who "doesn't love my brother enough" because unlike everybody else in the family I won't say his temper is ok and harmless, while no one questions whether he actually loves me at all and if so why he thinks it's ok to treat me with pure contempt (his own word for it) - just lies, lies and more lies."

I feel that because of my breakdown when I actually stood up for myself and said it was not ok to treat me this way thats when relationships got far worse for me. Before then i let things go, kept feelings to myself and now that i actually say thats not acceptable i have blown some kind of family code. I should have been sticking to the false family story of pretending all is well.
I feel the outcast for saying my sister is hurting me and thats why i feel so betrayed by my mum.

I can sort of handle the hurt from my sister although i often go into guilty mode and feel i have caused this pain for her (i do believe she is acting out of pain)maybe this is easier as she will say some hurtful things to me making it easier to cut off.

My dad has always been one of a kind and when hes good hes lovely which is what i have had for a few years now, in fact i think although we fell out he admires me for standing up for myself, said something about it once.

But my mum, we were so close as it was always me and mum and my sister and dad. I was there for her, fought her corner (although i know i shouldnt have as i was a child). I cant seem to get over the fact that she hasnt backed me up and worse still thinks we are both as bad as each other.

It kills me.

Hi

Haven't been around for ages and haven;t caught up with the thread, will read it tonight.

I had issues with my parents from the past where I'd felt they'd let me down badly and from the present, where basically they just wear me down with derogatory comments all the time, within 20 minutes of being with them I'd have at least 5 comments made about the state of my house, my stupidity, why I haven't done x,y,z, Why I should have done A,B,C etc. Really quite wearing. A recent example when talking to my Dad about my ExH being physically abusive; me' You knew he used to be violent' dad - 'Only in retaliation to you probably'. Oh gee thanks.

There have been lots of comments re this about how I'm so difficult to live with, would try the patience of a saint etc.

Anyway, I went to counselling and ended up writing them a letter. It got lots better, lots of open, honest conversations and they really seemed to listen to me. That was about 5 months ago. Now its back to normal again.

The counsellor said that I need their approval too much and I know that I do. Does anyone know how you get over that and stop craving it? I just set myself up for a fall every time, I tell them things hoping for a positive reaction and everytime they just are negative and mean and it hurts me. Why can't I learn to stop expecting anything from them? Sorry if this is garbled.

defluff, hi. Yes, what you describe is common to all of us I think. We keep hoping for some love, kindness, consideration, affection from our parents/siblings, but we are always disappointed and let down. The hoping I think is normal,in fact it is probably programmed in all of us as an evolutionary survival mechanism. A baby has no choice but to put all it's trust in it's parents, trust that they will protect him/her, meet all it's needs emotional and physical, not hurt or harm him/her in any. ie do all that is necessary for the baby to grow into a strong healthy adult. So we are all born with this inherent need and unless that need is satisfied and met, it will always remain, even in adulthood. That is why you feel so attached still to your parents even though it is evident from what you have said that they are not meeting your needs, nor have they ever met your needs, and sadly, nor is it likely that they will ever meet your needs. But to try and detach from them and give up hoping and expecting thta they will give you what you need is the hardest thing you will ever do. But it is the only way to avoid the continual and constant hurt they inflict on you and also to open the door to other possible ways of having your needs met. As i said to sb, if you haven't read any books on this subject i highly recommend you do so, Toxic Parents by Susan Forward is a good starting point and I personally love Alice Miller and The Drama of the Gifted Child but i can understand her books are not for everyone as they can be difficult to read and understand.

sb, so much of what you say rings true with me. When you were depressed and tried to speak to your mother and she just shrugged her shoulders, me too. My mother just changed the subject and starting talking about the weather! And it had taken me so much courage to even try and talk to her about how i was feeling; i was absolutely desperate, i was the lowest i had ever been at that point, i had severe PND but didn't realise it, I had 'normal' depression because my eczema had flared up terribly after I had DD and i was distraught about it, i had fallen out with DH about his mother and so he was giving me the cold shoulder all the while i was depressed and home alone with DD, crying my eyes out in the shower every day....it was a living nightmare and i had absolutely nobody who cared enough to see what i going through and help me. My parents were not interested in me at all, just DD, their first grandchild, DH was too busy worrying about his mother instead of me, i had no close friends where we were living and the friends i did have i couldn't talk to as i was the first to have a baby and i just didn't feel any of them would understand and i was also so used to always putting on a front and always acting normal even if inside i was cracking up and completely falling apart.

Anyway, sorry, meant to say i know what you are talking about.

How you feel is so very common, the family member who decides they can no longer go along with the pretend happy family that everyone has been complicit in for so long gets cast as the bad guy. I too have been there and done that. You shouldn't have to 'get over' the fact that your mother hasn't stood up for you. You are right and entitled to feel hurt, let down, betrayed by her.

I cannot advise you how to begin to unravel the mess your family have left you. It is a very individual journey for all of us. All i would say is trust your feelings. Don't try and talk yourself out of how you feel because your family try and tell you that you shouldn't feel the way you do, that you are being oversensetive, nasty etc etc. Trust in yourself and your feelings. If you feel hurt and let down by your mother it is because your mother has let you down and hurt you and failed in her duty to you. Keep reading the thread and keep posting, you will find your own way out of this as long as you have faith in yourself and your feelings.

Because DH is not around at the moment, I somehow feel it is 'safe' for me to admit to some feelings about him that i have been denying to myself for a long time. I have talked a little bit above about how he and I had a falling out over his mother not long after I had DD. As a result of the falling out he gave me the cold shoulder for months it seemed like. I can't even remember what exactly we fell out over in relation to his mother. Perhaps if we had the same discussion now we wouldn't even have fallen out as he seems much more able or willing to see her as she really is, instead of through the rose tinted specs he has been wearing for so long. For ages i have been letting him off the hook. I have said to myself that i can't blame him in any way for not noticing or seeing what a bad time i was having after i had DD as we hadn't been together all that long when i had DD and so i thought he could be forgiven simply for not knowing me well enough to see that something was terribly wrong and that i was in a really bad place and needed help in the months after having DD. Whilst some of this is true, the fact is in my heart i feel despite not having been married that long etc, DH as my husband and the person who was living with me, should have and could have seen that i was feeling so awful and done something to help me. Instead i feel he was deliberately freezing me out and being cold towards me because he was annoyed with me about something i had said about his mother when she came to visit after i had DD. There were many days when i didn't see or speak to a soul after I had DD and DH could have been the one friendly face in my life at the time, but because he was more concerned about his mother than me, he chose to be cold and distant with me at a time when i most needed some support and help. It was all the worse because i had DD, i couldn't go out and meet one of my friends and even if i didn't talk to her about how i felt, just seeing a friendly and familiar face would have been good for me, but i couldn't even do that, i was miles away from all my friends and family (at that time i was of course still labouring under the mistaken belief that my family cared about me). I remember i used to feel desperate all day, i would be waiting for DH to come home but when he did he would just ignore me, take DD and play with her and just leave me by myself. Then i went to stay with my parents for a while, if nothing else it was a familiar area where i had friends and my parents were of help in a practical way ie cooking meals and looking after DD so i could sleep. But even that was not acceptable to DH and his mother. MIL used to phone me up whilst i was at my parents (DH was still in our flat by himself) and make snidey remarks about the fact that i had gone to stay with my parents leaving DH alone by himself. Of course i was in such a state at that time i could not put her straight about the situation at all, i just took everything she said to me inside, didn't tell a soul, not my parents nor DH, nobody, but i would feel so hurt that MIL did not seem to understand how hard it was for me with DD which is why i had gone to stay with my parents and yet also guilty inside for having left DH (no doubt that was MIL's intention). I felt i simply could not survive on my own with DD in our flat every day which is why i had gone to stay with my parents and a big part of the reason was because of the way DH was treating me ie being cold and distant and ignoring me. I so wish i had been able to tell MIL all this at the time and put a stop to her snidey phone calls. Yet another reason i am so glad i never have to lay eyes on her again, although, as i have said, DH also has a lot to answer for. My father criticised DH once a while ago for not realising i had PND and needed help, but at the time i defended DH saying it was too much to expect of him to see that i was having problems as i was also angry at my parents for not seeing that i was in a bad way.

I do still feel my parents are more to blame in the months after i had DD. DH had only been married for 2 years when I had DD and in hindsight i realise we did not know each at all really at that time. But my parents surely should have noticed and cared enough about me to see there was something wrong and done something to help me; i saw them enough after i had DD for them to notice something and my mother even stayed with us for 3 weeks after DD was born and she didn't notice anything at all. She even asked me, literally weeks after i had DD, when i was feeling awful and looking terrible because of my eczema, when i would have no.2! I was stunned that she could ask such a question, it showed to me just how completely, utterly and totally oblivious she was about how i was feeling at the time. I was wishing i hadn't had DD, and was a million miles from even contemplating another baby.

OPO, the time period just after the birth of your DD sounds so hard . It sounds like you felt so alone and everyone was expecting you to just get on with it and be a happy Mummy despite all the difficult things your body and mind go through while having your first baby. Why does society seem to expect new mothers to just 'get over it'?! It sounds like everyone around you was only thinking about how the situation affected them. I also get the feeling that they didn't want to think that you were having problems because it scared them that they didn't know what to do about it? Why do people get scared like this though? It doesn't take a huge amount of intelligence!

Two things struck me. One, that perhaps the situation mirrored feelings you had during childhood - nobody noticing you were unhappy or making any effort to help you feel better, which would make you feel you weren't important enough for them to bother. And two, the fact that you haven't written about this until now. It seems like the abandonement you felt by the people around you, especially your DH, after the birth, was so painful that you buried it and didn't want to believe it. Now you are really facing it. For you to bury it for so long without really talking about it makes me think it must have really hurt.

Another thought I had was do you think that people don't realise you are unhappy and don't always 'get' your real intentions because you act over your true self? This isn't a criticism because I don't think it is your fault. Acting normal and 'tough' is a habit I recognise for protecting yourself from feeling humiliated when people upset/hurt you. When you use this coping strategy at a young age and then it becomes a habit and you've done it for a long time though your ability to express your emotions in a normal relaxed way 'siezes up'. It makes it hard for people to see the real you.

You don't need that habit any more because you know now that it is not weak to show your emotions, it is STRONG. People who made you feel it was weak and something to be ashamed of were wrong. Habits are hard to break though.

DeFluff, it is good that you at least recognise that your parents keep falling short of what you would like from them and disappointing you and that you are setting yourself up for a fall every time you have hope that they will behave differently.

Don't feel silly that you keep doing it though because as OPO said, it is an inbuilt urge to look for a proper connection with your parents and the love that you should receive from them. It takes a lot to give up on this because it is such a strong natural urge. I wish I could tell you a quick way to stop hoping for what you can't get from them but I don't think there is one. I think you just end up taking all you can take and then can't take it anymore and give up putting yourself through it any more.

Maybe you think that if things started to go right with them now you could 'forget' how they let you down in the past? But what if this isn't the case? Do you feel you need to deal with how you feel about how they let you down in the past? I had to do this too and although I can understand my family's reasons for letting me down and hurting me I don't feel I have to forgive them because it hurts too much. Let someone else forgive them but I shouldn't have to because it is too hard for me. I didn't know I was going to write that, it just came into my head!

I'm not even going to apologise for being 'weak' for saying it is too hard for me to forgive them. This is progress for me!

Sb9, you sound so betrayed by your family. And it sounds unfair, like they are putting all their faults and failings onto you and maing their mistakes your fault because they can't face their own wrongnesses.

Well done for speaking out and 'breaking the family code'. This is something I identify with (more like breaking the secrecy that kept the family veneer of respectability intact in my case).

It takes courage and strength. My family aren't trying to fight against what I said to them in my long confrontation letter in that they don't talk about anything to do with it, they just carry on acting as though nothing has happened. It sounds like your family are reacting against what you have said though? So you are having to continue to be strong, which sounds very wearing.

and, Sb9, what you said about your mum's inability to help you causing you to rage inside - me too.

It feels confusing if our mothers weren't the ones who actually did things directly to hurt us, yet we feel more angry with them than with the people who did directly hurt us. It must be something to do with them breaking our trust in them as parents who are supposed to protect their children. They betrayed, abandoned and let us down by not even trying to help us because of their own weakness. In this way they put their own feelings of discomfort if they did something about our situation above our feelings of having to go through it with nobody helping us. This makes you feel unimportant.