I need some MN no-nonsense perspectives please [quake]

[Greensneeze]

OK the background is that 3 years ago I cut off contact with my mother and stepfather. It was very nasty and acrimonious, it actually made me quite ill at the time and we ended up getting the police involved and my mother/stepfather had to sign the harassment act etc

I have an older sister whom I haven't seen since just after my wedding 8 years ago. She and I have always had a bad relationship, she is very similar to my mother - cruel, deceitful, has no behavioural boundaries etc. But she can be very charming and reasonable too when she wants to be. My feeling about both her and my mother is that the "good things" simply are not worth it, because they will ALWAYS hurt me in the end, they always have and it wouldn't ever change.

My sister knew I was in hospital for weeks on end and in a wheelchair when I had ds1, and that he was in intensive care and I nearly died during the birth etc. She was in phone contact with my dad (relationships in my family are few and far between, virtually nobody will speak to anyone else). She didn't give a shit, didn't wish us well or want to see us, no card, nothing. She told me dad she was sick of hearing about me.

The whole time I was the only one supporting and talking to my mum, she and my sister didn't communicate at all, they had a huge row after my wedding (well during it really) and I gave my sister my house keys so she could stay at mine (she had just come bck from Japan and was meant to be staying at my mum's, but my sister was crying saying mum had thrown her out)

My mother kicked off the most almighty row over my disloyalty in giving my sister somewhere to stay, endless phone calls and abusive messages and letters, waking us up repeatedly in themiddle of the night, screaming and ranting and making wild and bizarre accusations.

A few years later when my older brother got in touch I invited him to come and see ds1. I spent weeks preparing my mother for this and had her promise that she would not phone or come over during that few days and cause a scene. Previously she had made it a condition of our relationship that I not have any contact with my brother, bvecause he didn't want to see her, and it would therefore be disloyal of me. But I wanted him to meet his only nephew, and my mother assured me that she understood and would control herself. The phone calls and abusiveness started about 3 hours after he arrived and it got so bad he had to leave early. At that point my mother continued the "episode" for several months - my 16yo half brother ended up staying with me for months and going to school on the train, because she threw him out for wanting to see my brother. She also did charming things like dumping the entire collection of family photo albums on my doorstep in a binbag. SHe then took an overdose (on my brother's birthday, she saved up her pills) and went straight to my stepdad and saifd "call and ambulance, I've taken an overdose". She was taken to hospital, was fine and talked her way around the duty psychiatrist. After that dh and I accepted all the blame for everything and went back to the usual routine on her terms because I was afraid she would succeed next time.

The final episode happened when I told her - over a period of months, and again she promised me she could handle it - that I wanted to stop the rigid two-days-a-week routine (which involved my stepfather picking me and the boys up aa the crack of dawn and then me spending two hours getting her up and out of bed, then going out and not getting back until 8pm with two tired toddlers). DS1 was starting nursery and I wanted more flexibility and more time of my own. We set up several dates for meeting up and for weekend things so she wouldn't feel dumped.

She kicked off, predictably, after a phone call just after he started nursery in which she nonchalantly said "XXX can pick you up from the nursery car park and we'll do our two days a week as usual" and I said "Er no, that's not what we agreed". Cue months of abusive phone calls - up to 30 a night (we got voicemail in the end and woke up to the messages in the morning). It culminated in her turning up at ds1's nursery and then her and stapofather chasing dh through the streets in their car, parking outside our house for hours etc.

my sister has miraculously been in touch with my mother since I disappeared from her life, after years of no contact. She started ringing up my dad (who now has no contact with my mother because he was here and saw some of the behaviour - it was the biggest shock of his life, he has no idea of the kind of childhood they gave us while he was away). She asks questions about me and dh and the boys and tries to probe into what happened with my mother. Today she called my dad's phone, which he has left at our house, and dh answered it. She was very calm and reasonable but very pushy, trying to get him to get me, and asking him to make sure I call her back. As far as she is concerned there is "no problem between me and her"

I don't want to call her. I don't want anything to do with her, I don't trust her and I think all she wants is to gain brownie points with my mother by forging a link. She wasn't interested in meeting my children before (they are 6 and 4) and I don't believe she is interested now. She has hurt me with her viciousness and deceit all my life and I don't want to let her, or any of them, back in.

What would you do? Honestly? I'm prepared for some brutal responses, I've had them before on MN when I've posted about all this. I could really, really use some advice. I am actually shaking inside and out

They (your mother, stepfather and sister) all sound utterly bonkers.

Well done for surviving all this stuff and stay well clear,

greensneeze,

Think you've actually answered your own question in your last sentence.

For the sake of your own self worth and sanity (not to say that of your own children) there is NO way on Gods earth I'd ever have any contact with this toxic and narcissistic bunch of screwed up people you describe.

Both your mother and sister sound like they have untreated and untreatable personality disorders. These problems of dysfunction can often become generational in nature; no point putting the next generation i.e your children through all this.

There should be no second chances - they have shown all too clearly how toxic they are.

You may also want to post on the "well we took you to Stately Homes" thread as that is also about toxic parents and relations.

my perspective on this is a little different. My mum didn't maintain contact with my real dad's family after he cleared off. I met them as a grown up. What i do see is the damage it has done to my cousins growing up in an atmosphere like that, Nan was thoroughly toxic......aunts and uncles constantly falling out and displaying appalling behaviour. My cousins are all damaged by this.

While i understand that you are talking about immediate family and not in-laws and therefore making that break must be harder emotionally what i will say is that i am so glad my mum had the strength to cut these people out of our lives. And having seen how it has affected my cousins who are effectively in the situation that your children will be i'd say stick with how you feel and stay away from your family. Don't expose your kids to them.

greensneeze

Your mum sounds awful Have you read toxic parents?? (Am sure you will have) Sounds like my family but on higher up on the looney scale!

I think if you let your sister in she will pick up where your mum left off, controlling and manipulating you.

You are right to have cut them out of your life, and my advice is to stick to it. Your children don't need an aunt. They need a happy mum.

oh good, glad Attila got here!

Greeny, PLEASE realise that these people are no good for you.
By some accident, you are related to them by blood. That, imo, means very little. They sound utterly vile and I can see NO reason for you to inflict them on your own family ever again.

Your brothers and Dad sound far more sane - stick with them if you want to maintain some family; lose your mother and sister.

Rest assured, your sister's motives are NEVER going to be good - she is just looking for an "in" so that she can start to abuse you again. If you don't want to phone her then DON'T. Change your phone number, go ex-directory, have no contact with them again - if you can do it, you will feel a lot better in the long run; but I appreciate it will be quite hard for you at the moment because you are still locked into the mindset where you have to support them because they're your family. Bollocks. They haven't shown you any support - how many times will you need to be kicked to realise that they are Takers and will Take from you until you are an empty shell with nothing left to give?

I am being harsh, I am sorry - I feel dreadfully for you but feel you need straight talking to cut through any sentimentality you have around the "but they're my family" issue.

Please step away from them, for all your sakes.

Well, as far as you're concerned, there is a problem between you and your sister! Think you are very reasonable to cut the lot of them out of your life.

My FIL did the same with his parents. He had an extremely rotten childhood, and decided he didn't want his parents in his life as an adult. His two brothers (who he essentially raised) decided to side with the parents. FIL hasn't seen any of them for years, doesn't even know if his mother is still alive. However, he's at peace with this decision. DH certainly hasn't suffered for having not known these people. I think FIL has acted admirably in not letting these people into his children's lives. And most importantly, FIL is better off with the family he has made rather than the one he was born with.

I agree with everyone. But if you feel a twinge of guilt, then think of this: that if she is very genuine, if she has had a sincere change of heart, then she will understand that you will be unable to resume the relationship immediately with sincerity yourself, as she'll be able to see past behaviour as it really was.

She will understand it should take months of sincere behaviour, apologies, backing off when you ask, attempts to understand and to listen, before you let her into your life again.

If she doesn't understand that, if she can't see that, then you have nothing to feel guilty about because she has no regrets for her past behaviour. The way she abandoned you when you were ill -- she should realise she needs to be forgiven for that.

You could write her a letter explaining why, if you feel you need to. If you see it used against you you'll know you made the right decision not resuming contact.

I agree with everyone about how your children need this like a rat sandwich and they come first. They don't need a bad auntie just for the sake of having an auntie.

You poor things! I think you are well aware that you have a 'toxic' family here, you don't have to put your own family through this. Live YOUR life. What have they done for you.
My cousin has a toxic mother and has ended up living in fear and always wary ofwhat her mother is going to do next. She still feels obligated to her enoght they she is ruining her life, I wish she would cut ties.

'even though'

Greeny, you know what you need to do and I hope all these responses are reassuring you that what you want is the right thing. Seriously, have confidence in yourself- by keeping these people out of your life you are saving yourself so much heartache.

Greensneeze, it is abolsultely NOT your responsibility to be 'the stronger person' to make the relationship with your sister work.

Your mother and your sister sound like they both have narcisistic personality disorders and your stepfather is colluding and enabling their behaviour. This is not something that either of them can change so I sincerely doubt your sister has had any sort of epiphany. BUT it DOES NOT MEAN YOU NEED TO PITY/FEEL SORRY/FORGIVE THEM BECAUSE THEY ARE ILL. My advice would be keep both your mother and your sister out of your life. Your duty of care is to your dc and your DH now, no one else.

It sounds like your brother saw this a long time ago. Can you turn to him for support? Your dad also sounds like he's had his eyes open, again, can you turn to him for support.

Take a look in the stately homes thread, you're not alone in this.

There is absolutely nothing to be gained and much to be lost by having contact with these people. If you let them back in your life the only thing that will happen is that you will get hurt again - and this time your DC too - and you will have to start the disowning process all over again. I don't say that lightly, but IMO you should never have any contact again.

Good God, they sound horrendous.
Don't speak to her. You owe her nothing.

I think you'd be bonkers if you had anything more to do with any of them. You are suspicious of your sister's motives and I think you're quite right to be.

You say if you were a stronger person you might let her back in; I say you are a strong person and it takes a strong person to turn your back on it all and not let any of them back in.

All these responses are very much appreciated and are helping to strengthen my resolve and clarify my thinking.

It's so sad though. My children still mention my mother, and they ask about my sister too. I don't want to give them too good an explanation because I don't want to "poison" them against people - but ds1 in particular has a very clinical mind and asks very searching questions.

I'm not going to call her though. I really don't want to and I feel a lot less mean having read all the responses on this thread. She was doing the 'reasonable injured party' act with dh and we both felt awful - but no good can come of opening it all up again.

Well done for staying strong Greeny.

I think it would be wise, depending on their ages, to tell them some of your reasoning i.e. that they have made you very upset and you don't like talking to people who make you upset.

The reason I say this is because I have a friend whose ma never spoke to her own father. My friend, in her teens, insisted on contacting him and he came back into their lives. In a very short space of time, my friend wished she hadn't contacted him but by then it was too late, and her mum ended up having to deal with a very cantankerous vicious old man (I don't know the full ins and outs of it but he wasn't a nice person)

So the more up front you are about it, the more your DC are likely to be ok with your decision, I would think.

thanks for posting that thumbwitch, it's really helpful to have that perspective. One of the things that eats at me most about all this is the thought of the children turning on me when they're older and blaming me for poisoning them against her or not letting them see her. It's like sitting on a time bomb. She has a very candy-cottage personality for children - she's charming, funny etc. My children both thought the world of her when we were seeing her (ds1 was 3, ds2 18 months when I cut her off). Your friends experience is very sad, and I think that is exactly what would happen if my children were allowed to have anything to do with her - she won't change, some people just can't or don't want to

My dad will be here tomorrow and will want to talk about this (he'll have heard form my sister by now). I wish it would all just go away, it keeps rearing its ugly head when I least need it.

I wouldn't. I really wouldn't, if you've got this far and successfully managed to keep them away.

I know there are incredibly strong pushes to keep or renew contact with family members, even when the relationship is awful, but I don't think we (anyone with families like this, I do have issues with my family too) should cave to other people's pressure. Maybe their families just aren't as toxic.

You don't have to see people, just cos they are family. I have to tell myself this too. Stick to friends and family who make you feel good about yourself and life in general.

Article which may interest you by ex (or perhaps current) mumsnetter in the Guardian:

www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2009/may/09/leah-hardy

I could relate to a lot of it. Especially the guilt at trying to cope with chronically difficult parents.

That article is so heart-breaking. I suppose it's about accepting that people are what they are and there's no point busting a gut to change them. I do know that really. It just feels crap to have a failed relationship with my sister as well as my mother (and my brother isn't speaking to me at the moment either). What a fucking family.

she is an ex-MNer unfortunately.

Ah Greeny, the thing is, the fault is NOT YOURS. the failure is NOT YOURS. It is down to your mum and your sister to behave like rational adults, not to still behave like manipulative toddlers. Unlike toddlers though, you can't parent them, they don't want you to and wouldn't let you. That is THEIR failure - failure to grow up and behave sensibly. NOT your problem.

It's normal. Though crap. I have been avoiding talking to my parents for months, they came for lunch round the corner last week and I couldn't face going to meet them, though I haven't seen them for at least 4 months. Just couldn't bear it. And my brother and his wife haven't spoken to me since Christmas when I offended them, noone is in a rush to break that stalemate. Really, there are a lot of crap families out there.

And I'm finding it a bit tricky explaining it to my dc too. Why I collapse into a gibbbering heap at the thought of having to see my parents.