breaking up with young children: do we wait, try harder, or just call it quits?

[MaeBee]

i'm not in love with my partner any more, and haven't been for some time. i find sex a bit of a chore (although, admittedly, i have had a lot of physical problems in the pants area since childbirth, and these don't help!), and i sort of feel reluctant even to kiss and be affectionate. i do love and care for him considerably. it would break his heart if i told him i wasn't in love.
we argue quite a bit too, and i feel generally disatisfied with the relationship. i have always been very independent and i feel quite trapped by him, even though everyone would think we have a very easy, relaxed relationship. we have an open relationship in theory, he has a girlfriend he sees about once a week in leeds, i am currently without extra marital relationships, but we have strict rules about keeping it seperate from the famly. he is very insecure and jealous though, and at the moment doesn't feel he can cope with me starting something new. especially as our sex life is so bad. but, as i said, i don't actually fancy him anymore.
but we have a child who is not yet 3, and i know this can be a particularly terrible time for breaking up. seeing as theres nothing intensely wrong, should we just stick it out til my ds is older? has anyone broken up a fairly amicable relationship and how was it?
i don't know how we would decide custody and who gets the house either, and as he doesn't work i worry that he wouldn't cope financially without me. we do 50/50 childcare.
any thoughts?
please be kind, i'm really trying to think things through!

MaeBee - It's going to be hard. I think the horrible fact it you are going to have to work out how all of that interacts wit, not so much your being a partner, more your being a parent.

This is sounding more and more to be about parenthood.

I think you may well have some choices/compromises to make. What those may be, is not set in stone, and I can think across my life and come up with a wide variety of models, from the very conventional to the wildly unconventional but choices there have been.

You really need to deal with your problems with intimacy before you move on (if that is what you decide to do) and an existing relationship is pretty much the best place to do this. Otherwise you risk repeating this patten of behaviour in future relationships and that would be very hard for your child to live with long term. Please think hard about getting some relationship counselling with some sexual therapy as wel.

It is easy to be attracted to the unknown the exciting, the other. For those of us with intimacy problems (yes I include myself in that) it is far harder to be sexually attracted to the person who knows us and who is familiar to us. The reasons for this are many, varied and individual.

Why not try counselling/therapy (though I am afraid this can take time and money) and instigate a temporary monogomy rule while that is happening which can be changed later if your relationship gets stronger and you still want to.

I really think you owe it to yourself first and to your child as well to try and work through this. If you loved your dp before and found him attractive, it is possible (though not certain) that you can again but you have to deal with your issues around intimacy first.

Once you are clear what you want from a relationship, other than a vague idea of freedom (at the moment you just seem to know what you don't want) you can decide whether to split up or to carry on and on what basis (monogomus or open)

how can he be head over heels if he has a gf in leeds? sorry if that sounds harsh but that alone would be the end for me- a so called open marriage is far worse for your dc. am speechless tbh.

i don't think an open relationship is bad for kids! why on earth would it be? i think our arguements are bad for my little one, but i'm in favour of your parents sex life being quite, quite seperate from your children! i don't want to know what my folks do in the sack for sure!
the open relationship isn't the problem at all.

Maybe

I don't think the open relationship is a problem in itself but your relationship doesn't seem strong enough to withstand being open.

It seems to me that an open relationship needs to be strong, committed, honest and fundamentally sound (even more so than more traditional relatonships) )to withstand the very real challenges of "being open",

What do you want from a relationship? Would you prefer

A to have no permanent relationships and just have a series of long intense and enjoyable sexual encounters but have no need for longer term commitment?.

B Do you want a fundamentally sound long term relationship that provides yous with support and help (this works both ways BTW) but want to get your sexual thrills elsewhere?

C Do you want noting to do with sex or relationships at the moment?

D Do you want to have a committed loving and monogomous relationship.

If A or C is true then you do need to leave. If B or D is true you need to work at thimgs until you are sure that you can't have what you want with your current dp before moving on.

lazycow,
good question. my answer varies with how i'm feeling unfortunately, but usually somewhere between B and C. i definately would not be happy with monogamy. indeed, i strongly suspect i would become a cheat and a liar. but i alternate between wanting that closeness of a longterm relationship and finding it stifling.
i went to see my fave ex today, who probably knows me better than anyone. and he too, without prompting, said that i had a bit of a problem with commitment and was inclined to panic. i think all that is true. but again, on the other hand, that doesn't mean this relationship is right for me?
and how, in the medium term, do i make myself fancy my dp when i don't feel it?

MaeBee - I totally understand you on the open relationship thing, but it is outside what is considered normal and a lot of people won't understand that that's not the problem here.

I don't think staying together for your son is healthy or positive for him. You don't want a sexual relationship with your dp anymore, so why should you force yourself to for some idealised notion of what a family is? Your son is young enough to adapt - what is important to him is that mummy and daddy love him and are kind to each other - you don't need to be in a romantic/sexual relationship to do that.

I do think it would be unfair on your dp for you to stick it out, fake it, when you don't really want to be there. Isn't the whole foundation of an open relationship (any successful relationship) honesty? You can be co-parents, you will still be a family, just not Little House on the Prairie. It might mean one of you needs to move out and the division of childcare needs to be formalised, but you can still parent together.

Relationships aren't static - of course they change over time. Maybe with some space and different circumstances in the future you and your dp will find yourselves in a sexual relationship again.

Your relationship sounds pretty fucked up and unhappy.

I too am going through a difficult period in my marriage. We have always challenged each other but more often than not these challenges are becoming increasingly hard to cope with as they leave me feeling worn out and bitterly resentful. I think that through a marriage both people grow and develop different characteristics that they may not have had before they were in a partnership. This is how a couple make a marriage work. How much change one is prepared to do and compromises one is willing to make is different for each individual. Therefore MaeBee only you can decide what is best for you. I must say that many on this thread and on other mumsnet threads I have been on are very quick to say that a woman should leave her husband. That is one course of action but I would like to add to this discussion that leaving a partner with whom you have children is HUGE. I am of course thinking of my own situation whilst writing this and it may seem like a bit of a rant

Sorry, me again.

I was just wondering if perhaps the whole situation is related to the fact of you having dc. (I'm going back to an earlier post here.)

I'm sure there is a phenomenon of women experiencing becoming mothers as quite a ... erm ... intense experience. The sudden demands of the new child can be experienced as quite a breach of the boundaries of your self-hood. It can really shake up how you negotiate the border between self and other and consequently how you experience your individual self and how that self operates in the world.

It can make you feel torn between completely succumbing to a strange demand to submerge your self in the needs of another and a desire to run for the hills. (I did once read about all this in a book!)

I also think that people experience intimacy on a continuum and what for one person is "cozy" is absolutely overwhelming for another.

So I wonder if your "intimacy" tank may be a bit full at the moment, what with the dc. Or maybe, has been shaken around.

I would second Lazycows advice about counselling, and perhaps suggest doing a bit of that before doing anything dramatic.

Good luck.

cappy1: what is going on for you? i agree people are quick to make a decision for you, but i guess we ask for advice! the problem is, it is always infinitely more complex than we can say in an opening post. how do we possibly convey the enormity of emotions that we have? its usually just a few second snapshot, and obviously, we don't post when everything feels dandy and well.

cherryblossom: i agree, again, with you, it is this big conflict within. theres quite a history in my family of the mothers not staying with their kids, and it was a big fear of mine before i became pregnant. but now, i feel i can handle that commitment, its just any more feels enormous pressure. my intimacy tank does indeed feel full. i feel 'overloved' in my family, like everyone wants my attention, that meeting my partner's desire for cuddles etc is just someone else's needs to fulfil. GIVE ME SPACE! is probably an internal mantra of mine...!

MaeBee: How have you been? I read this thread a bit later... and was wondering how you've been doing? I do hope things have settled down a bit, and that you've asked for some help- the idea of therapy sounds good, I think it would not be doing yourself any favours if you just broke up without giving a chance for the relationship to work. And therapy would be good for that, or at least for helping you think through all the issues you so eloquently describe (you seem to have a good grip of what's happening in your life, so I think you would really benefit from good therapy: just choose your therapist carefully as there are many inexperienced & unqualified therapists around).

maebee- you seem very confused. Part of you is hankering after a freedom that is available to very few people who now have a child to care for.

I think you need to separate out two things: are you sick of your partner, or are you just not cut out for long term relationships- with anyone?

While I think counselling might be helpful, choose your counsellor carefully as quite a few of them are basically monogamists and will spend all their time trying to 'cure' you of your resistance to monogamy. Which will be unhelpful bullshit.
Please remember that it's perfectly OK to avoid monogamy and not be very keen on couplehood: couplehood isn't for everyone and a lot of the people who engage in it are doing so because they have never bothered to question the assumption that it's 'what you do'.
For better or worse, you and this man are family now in that you are co-parents, but that doesn't mean you have to live in the same house or maintain any kind of couple-relationship if one or both of you is not happy to do so. ONe of the good things about amicable co-parenting is that you actually do get plenty of time to go out on the rip all night while the co-parent does the childcare (as long as you do your share of childcare while the co-parent goes out to play as well). I am 44, non-monogamous, happily single and have a decent co-parent relationship with my DS' dad (separate homes but he sees DS at least twice a week) and I get plenty of nights out to rampage happily.
Good luck in finding an arrangement that works for all concerned. Because there will be one.

SG says "While I think counselling might be helpful, choose your counsellor carefully as quite a few of them are basically monogamists and will spend all their time trying to 'cure' you of your resistance to monogamy. Which will be unhelpful bullshit."

I think that's very unfair and prob a great exaggeration- is it based on your own experience of counselling, or heresay?

I have many friends/colleagues who are counsellors and they would be horrified to hear themselves depicted in that way.

I am not replying so much to you SG here, as making a general point- most people do aspire to the "lasting relationship for life" ideal. I think if you did a straw poll, most people would say they wanted a loving relationship that lasted for a long time.

Unless both people who start off as a couple are feeling the same- that the relationship is only temporary- then one of them is going to get hurt.

I don't think it's fair to accuse people who conform to the couple "norm" as not having thought about the options- it's a bit patronising to accuse them of that.

I think most people acknowledge that no one person can give them 100% of what they would want-and most relationships unless you are REALLY lucky, involve some sort of compromise, but whether fleeting or short term relationship, or any other kind of relationships, make them any happier, is a debatable point.

It has been shown time after time that children thrive best in a 2-parent family which is stable; I don't believe you should stay together if the relationship is dire, but on the other hand I also think you have a responsibility to your child, who has, and needs, to see their father.

OP maybe you need to step outside of the here and now a bit and think about how you would like to see your life in 10 or 20 years time. It's easy to have temporary relationships in your youth, but do you still w ant to be alone or playing the field in your 60 and 70s?

HTTM: counsellors are people and have prejudices. Some counsellors have a very narrow and rigid view of human sexuality, others do not. There are, for instance, still counsellors who think that being gay is a problem/illness, and will try to cure gay clients of gaydom rather than address whatever the client's actual problem is.
So it's worth checking that a counsellor you are going to be treated by is actually suitable for you (after all, if you don't like or trust or feel comfortable with a counsellor, whatever the problem you have, the general advice is always, ask to see a different counsellor.)

As to whether 'most' people want longterm heteromonogamy or just think they do (because it is peddled so frenziedly at everyone as the only way to live) it's clearly a lifestyle that makes some people happy, and good luck to them, but I have met quite a few people who have married/moved in with someone on a 'well, everyone has to settle down at some point and you'll do' basis and it hasn't done either partner any favours. I simply think that more people ought to think more about what they really want before getting a joint mortgage or whatever.

HTTM: counsellors are people and have prejudices. Some counsellors have a very narrow and rigid view of human sexuality, others do not. There are, for instance, still counsellors who think that being gay is a problem/illness, and will try to cure gay clients of gaydom rather than address whatever the client's actual problem is.

SG- I simply cannot let you get away with that! If you know anything about the training of counsellors, you would know that being non-judgemental is one of the very first and most important requirements of being a counsellor. Have ou actually experienced this- or are you making an assumption? if you have experienced that kind of reaction, then you should have reported them to the BACP.

The reason I feel Ihave to take issue with you on this is a) I work with counsellors b) I have close friends who are counsellors c) I had a partner once who counselled specifically on sexual, homosexuality and gender issues within a counselling organisation that dealt with those. They would all be appalled at your opinions. The idea thet being gay can be cured has no place in counselling. Anyone who experiences that should report the counsellor to their professional body.

But most importantly, I feel your views are possibly deterring people from seeking help, and making them feel they will be judged or brain washed.

If you have been on the receiving ned of judgemental counselling, I hope you would take the matter further; if it is simply a biased, subjective opinion, then be aware you are doing the profession a disservice and possibly deterring people from counselling.

HTTM: I have heard from other people about homophobic/judgemental counsellors. I have met some dumbfuck bigots with counselling qualifications (they were not counselling me but I met them in the course of work-related activities).
I do appreciate that many counsellors are good at their jobs etc but I can;t think of any profession that doesn;t have its percentage of dickweeds and incompetents.
Also, while good counsellors are registered with the BACP etc there are no real requirements/standards for people who call themselves counsellors: any loon can buy a certificate off the internet and rent a consulting room, which is another reason why I advise caution when seeking counselling.
And surely, if you know as much about counseling as you say, you can't have issues with the idea that a patient should be able to change counsellors if the patient finds the individual counsellor unsympathetic or unsatisfactory: I thought that was one of the basics.

SG- I take your point that one counsellor can be very different from another BUT I still think that your friends have been most unusually unlucky to have found counsellors who were judgemental. They should not be practising if that is how they are.

I would hope that by now, people who seek counselling would know that any bona fide counsellor should be a member of the British Assocation for Counselling and Psychotherapy www.bacp.co.uk and Accredited- which means they have over 400 hours of counselling experience, and/or senior accredited, which means 8+ years on top of that.

Yes, I do know a lot about counselling, but even if I didn't, I would say that anyone who sees a counsellor and isn't able to have a good rapport with them, or doesn't like their way of working, should change- just as you would with your dr or dentist.

I think Solid is right. Counsellors are, of course, people. They are also not all trained to an equally good standard.Of course some of them (actually, all of them) have all sorts of prejudices about what is a good or a bad way to lead one's life. The question is to what extent these prejudices interfere in their work. The idea that all counsellors are 'non-judgmental' is simply not true. Lots of people are able to hide their prejudices behind a theory; e.g. to call people who are non-monogamous 'unable to deal with intimacy' etc. It's naive to believe all counsellors are equally suitable to deal with complex problems such as those MayBee describes.

Having said that. I have to say that a counsellor can't be expected to hold a particular view on non-monogamous relationships. I mean, what if MayBee herself changes her mind in the course of her therapy? Maybe she chose non-monogamous relationships at some point in her life, and maybe she'll reconsider at some other point (and maybe change again later). What I'm saying is, being non-monogamous is not just a lifestyle choice (and often a political view). It's also something based on one's desires, and desires change many times during our lifetime...

Hope this makes sense.

There are also lots of different views among proper, fully-trained counsellors as to the right way to live, and the right method of dealing with distress (ie some are into Freud, some into CBT, some are politically radical etc, etc, etc). I guess my real bottom line is that 'having counselling' isn't always the best quick fix, and the counsellor doesn't always know best so if you start counselling and find it isn't helping and you don't like the counsellor, then change counsellors...

I have had marriage counselling. Twice.Two dif counsellors.
Huge big shedload of crapola , both times.
Maybe I was unlucky.

maria- can I respectfully say that your post shows a deep misunderstanding of counselling? Unless you have had a bad personal experience which confirms your viewpoint, then what you say bears no resemblance to reality. I am not remotely naive. I agree that some counsellor s are a better "fit" and that clients need to feel comfortable with them, but they can be challenged by a client if he/she feels that the counsellor is prejudiced, or "leading them" in some way, and imposing their own life-values on them.

Anyone who trains in counselling has to leave their prejudices at the door. They should not bring their own opinions to their work- they are there to enable the client to discuss what is happening in their lives, and support them through astressful time. Yes, SG there are different ways of counselling; some use psychodynamic methods, others person-centred, other brief-solution-focused therapy, others some elements of CBT.

"There are lots of different views ...on the right way to live..." Whatever they do, they are NEVER supposed to guide or influence a client's decisions. Or let their own personal viewpoints show. Also your point "the counsellor doesn't always know best" shows a deep misunderstanding of the process- it is NOT about what the counsellor feels or thinks- they are NOT there to impose their lifestyle choices on a client.

Counselling has been regulated now for around 8 years. Previously yes, anyone could call themselves a counsellor . However, now that the BACPs has set standards, anyone seeking counselling can easily find out what their counsellor's training involved, and how qualified they are. If someone has had a bad experience of counselling it could be for all kinds of reasons- including their own ability to articualte their feelings, and not just the counsellor's performance.

I am sorry if I seem to have a bee in my bonnet over this, but as this forum is read by many people who are highly distressed, I do think it is important that people are not given a wholly negative viewpoint on it, just because of a few posters' own prejudices on its value.

maria- are you thinking that counsellors are there to give advice?

If so, that is completely wrong; they are there to enable the client to gain a greater understanding into their behviour, and how perhaps previous experiences have shaped their behaviour and choices.

Therefore it wouldn't matter how many times Maebee changed her choices- it is not that acounsellor is going to channel her in a particular direction, only then for her to discover that the counsellor had made the wrong choice for her, or given her the wrong advice. (Is that what you meant?)

Counselling is supposed to be about helping you discover what makes you tick, so you can then make the right choices for yourself.
I havehad 3 experiences of counselling; 1 was hopeless, one was great and the other was okay-ish, so I am not under the impression that it is 100% perfect for everyone all of the time.

I suppose, howtotellmum, what I'm saying is simply that counsellors are supposed to be one thing or another (and yes of course you're right about the non-judgmental attitude and all that). Whether they actually are all those things is another matter altogether. I could give all sorts of examples but its' beside the point. To get back to the issue discussed on this particular thread, I agree with Solid that counselling is not necessarily & for everyone the right choice; however, if it's good counselling / psychotherapy, with a well qualified suitable practitioner- who MaeBee feels she can work with- then it can be helpful. That was my point really, not more nor less.

As for whether counsellors give advice or just sit there non-judgmentally & listen (sorry howtotellmum for simplifying all that you said), that's a different discussion. And since you asked, howtotellmum, no I don't think I have a deep misunderstanding of the counselling process, and no I haven't had a bad experience. I just have a different viewpoint to yours (less idealizing of the whole profession of counselling / therapy). Bottom line: it can be great when it's great, but really bad (and even detrimental) when it's bad.