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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Relationship exploding! Help!

23 replies

mishmashmess · 02/04/2009 10:28

Right, first time post so here we go - I have no idea what to do next so I would love some help. Bit long!

About 7 months ago I found out my dp of 10 years had been having an emotional affair with his PA from the job he'd just left to set up his own business (what a cliche, I know). He explained it as having always thought she was kind and attractive, she'd dropped a hint about him by touching his leg at a party 6 months before, then he had a bit of a crisis over leaving, keeping in touch with her too much after and then it kicked off. They met once and had sex in her long lunch-hour, but the guilt was too much and when he came home he announced he wanted to leave me (in hindsight he said he didn't know what he wanted to do - he just wanted to run away as what he'd done hit home). I needed our solicitor's number and found her texts in his phone when I was looking for it. Cue five weeks of him living at his friend's house saying he thought he was in love with her but missed me but us periodically having very good sex including a week after when we just sat up all night and talked about our shared memories / lovely family in between (I know, it's very odd...).

When it came out it all made sense as in the weeks before he'd been distant and cruel and avoided me physically. Then he admitted she'd contacted him, they emailed for about 10 days and then it finally finished when I put pressure on him to choose as it was damaging our dcs as I was so upset and her dd was also really suffering according to her H (wetting the bed etc - she's 9) because of the atmosphere at their home - I had left her a polite message telling her to never call my house as I knew about their relationship in pretty much those words when I discovered it, but her H picked it up.

So, we talked about it a bit, but mostly only what I had found via text and email. He was very cagey about who had started it - I found her first message to him but he kept saying 'don't blame her it was both of us'. Anyway, one day 2 months after her H called to check it was over still as she was behaving weirdly, we spoke and he said my H had told her he found her attractive on his last day when he took her for a thankyou lunch. I had also been curious about how they ended up at her home during her lunch hour to have sex. Her H sent me copies of their mails to each other from when she resumed contact that confirmed (in a conversation between them) it was unplanned, they'd waked past and she said she had to drop in for something and that was it, though she did say that by meeting for lunch them ending up in bed had been pretty inevitable. Also, though he had started out just clearing up business and some other stuff (and ignoring the love declarations she was sending), after 10 days he crumbled and told her he had loved her and still did - I was sent this after we reconciled so it was another massive shock as he'd denied saying it then.

Anyway, fast forward to the problem now. I can't seem to let it go. He has been very hard to speak to about it, it is like getting blood from a stone, yet I know I have to have all the details to make sense of it - such as did he feel guilty during it, why didn't he make a move last Christmas (this would help me as I keep viewing all the time they worked together as him being secretly obsessed with her), how did he justify telling her he liked her at first and so forth. I forgot - he also said they had kissed before he went into her house, but it took till a month ago to get that out of him, before he said the whole thing was 'spur of the moment' even though they'd spent the previous hour discussing how they were soul mates.

All I want is for him to let me get reassurance on a few things i don't understand, especially as he hid a lot of detail at first but he says he's been over it all before and won't speak about it again. Other than that he has been great - lots of presents, hugs, he says he's sorry every few weeks and that he loves me. But... we went for a weekend away last week and had a massive row the first night which ruined the evening (our anniversary). The setting was great, he said I looked lovely and apologised for all the mess, but then said something else about it that caused me to feel I could ask one of the nagging questions I have, and that was it - row, tears etc.

So the next night he suddenly demanded halfway through dinner that I make 'interesting conversation'. When I froze he told me it was because I wasn't an interesting person. Then he threw his knife on the floor and demanded I pick it up. Since we came back things have been horrible and he won't look at me, especially since he found out I'm reading 'not just friends' - the Shirley Glass book. I have to because I really want to save our family, but he said 'as long as it's for you to do something and I don't have to do anything.' I think he feels he's tried and tried and is getting nowhere so this was some sort of breakdown. On the other hand, I think he should be totally open so I can trust him or it's pointless.

Reading this through I can see we both have issues and I don't know what to do next. Neither of us want to do Relate by the way, it's just not 'us'. Really, really need help (if he ever decides to talk again, though), when it gets to a crisis like this I know I want to make it work but I keep pushing him away...

OP posts:
theDreadPirateRabbits · 02/04/2009 10:40

Do you have 'issues' that aren't directly caused by his lying, cheating, and bullying behaviour? 'Cos I can't see any in your writing.

He is an arse. You deserve better, your children deserve better.

If he's not prepared to help you make it work, he deserves to be thrown out.

for you.

CoteDAzur · 02/04/2009 10:43

I'm sorry you are going through all this.

Does it really matter which of them wrote the first e-mail or how they went from lunch to sex in her apartment?

Saying he loves her, talking about being "soulmates" - this is not just a bit of sex on the side, or even some excitement, is it? What you need to decide is whether there can ever be a way back to a strong relationship between you and your H.

It sounds like he is making the effort to reconcile and save his family, but not because he loves you (sorry). Maybe he doesn't want to hurt the DC.

purpleduck · 02/04/2009 10:45

I am so sorry you are going through all this...
I think - about you guys going away and having a row - there was probably alot of pressure to have a good time. We always argue on holiday as there is such a high expectation.

I would really really suggest going to counselling - even if it is on your own. You have an awful lot there to deal with, and it could be helpful to get help with it.

Were there issues in your relationship before...?

MrsMattie · 02/04/2009 10:54

I'd say in all honesty you need to get over the 'Relate is just not us' thing pronto and get counselling.

Your husband has had an affair and you are both struggling pretty badly to deal with the fallout from this. It's not going to get better all by itself - you need help.

Your husband telling you your conversation isn't interesting rings big alarm bells for me, too. Sounds like he believes his affair is your fault, because you aren't exciting him anymore. There are obviously all sorts of resentments simmering under the surface for both of you, and I honeslty believe you won't be able to deal with these properly unless you get help doing so.

Miggsie · 02/04/2009 10:56

Throwing a fork on the floor and demanding you pick it up is total bullying, controlling and abusive behaviour.

He sees you as a thing to control, not a person.

I am not surprised you are pushing him away, he sounds horrible.

And he won't change and isn't interested in changing from the evidence in your post.

At some point you have to admit that either you stay in the relationship and it carries on like this for ever, or you need to leave.

mishmashmess · 02/04/2009 11:07

There were no issues in our relationship before - we were best mates and talked about everything, which was why it was such a shock.

It probably was the pressure - looking back I have tended to explode and push him away before birthdays / xmas / holiday just as we are getting close again. The choice of put down was because he knows it will make me really angry - my job involves PR and public speaking so it was picked to undermine me on every level. I have told him it is the sort of thing that counts as EA and he has thoroughly apologised. I know a lot of it is my fault - why rebuild with someone when they make you feel like crap all the time? - I suppose I want to know how to get past this and if it is normal to feel this way?

OP posts:
beanieb · 02/04/2009 11:10

Sorry - I think he's an arse and I think he's only stayed because he is scared to lose all the good things he gets from being married to you.

My advice would be to tell him that as it is him who had the affair (And it wasn't emotional!) then it is him who needs to be bending over backwards to give you whatever information, emotional support, space that you need.

If it were me I'd ask him to leave and I would get in touch with a solicitor and find out your rights RE a divorce.

theDreadPirateRabbits · 02/04/2009 11:21

Do you have children? You didn't say, and I was wondering if this was a factor?

mishmashmess · 02/04/2009 11:23

It's quite hard to put it in a less one-sided way, but he has really tried to sort things out... I know he finds it hard to talk about because he is very ashamed, and that he has tried to give me all the details, albeit in a piece by piece way that I find hard to gain a full picture from (hence obsessing over the gaps).

I do sometimes feel like I have been holding out my hand in friendship then pulling it back and thumbing my nose to punish him when he reaches for it, though. He says he loves the dcs and knows we're compatible and great together but he's finding it hard to be 'in love' when I don't give anything back, though he keeps trying to help me. Does individual counselling help / has it helped anyone?

OP posts:
FantasticMissFox · 02/04/2009 11:53

I'm going to be honest with you mishmash he sounds like a complete twat. He cheats on you with his pa? Then says hes sorry and wants to make it work but the next thing you know is hes demanding you pick his fork up?wtf???

This is abuse. Sounds to me like hes trying to wear away at your confidencee so you will stay with him. GET RID NOW, If not for you then for your dcs.

MrsMattie · 02/04/2009 11:57

But telling you your conversation isn't interesting...throwing a fork on the floor etc. He's not trying that hard, is he?

HappyWoman · 02/04/2009 12:05

I do think that what you are feeling is normal. He has rocked your whole life - for what?
Of course he wants it to all go away and probaby is ashamed of what he has done - well sorry he only has himself to blame for that and not you at all.

You may have faults too - who hasnt but what he did is just dreadful and you are still finding it tough to understand. Its ok though - you dont have to understand it to be able to get over it or to accept and try and forgive it.

Conselling is great either on your own or together. Him just being able to open up to someone else about what he has done would be a good start.

You sound as if you are not happy with your descion to continue with the marriage - and again you need not be ashamed of that you are not the failure - he is.

Good luck and try and get him to open up to you more - it is one of your needs that he is not meeting.

mishmashmess · 02/04/2009 12:15

I'm happy with the decision to continue - it's what I want more than anything as I do love him and I know we can be very good together if this is sorted out as we were / could again be very compatible. Thanks HappyWoman - I do think i spend a lot of time trying to get all the facts straight as I think it's going to give me the magic answer to 'why?'. Perhaps I don't? He always has had trouble talking about deep emotions (family loss etc), and yes, I have come down very hard on the EA overtones since it happened. I think after being the bad guy for so long he jumped on the chance to be morally superior. very childish but knows and accepts it was wrong.

OP posts:
BEAUTlFUL · 02/04/2009 12:41

Oh honey. I'd be exactly the same, which is why I don't think I could ever continue if DH had an affair. I'd be desperate to piece it together, to know every detail... It would be Hell.

I'm very sorry to say this, but it sounds like he is keener on her than he is on you. I am not trying to hurt your feelings, but to help explain his behaviour. He has backed her up - "Don't blame her it was both of us" - and as soon as you're together he gets irritable with you - "Make interesting conversation". It sounds like his head has said "Stay" but his heart just isn't in it.

Over time, i think this will drive you mad and make you vvvvvvv insecure. that';s what it would do to me, anyway. You feel odd because the behaviour you're expecting from a man who is making a go of things just isn't appearing. He's not doing it. He's being evasive not open, picky not loving, distant not warm. Of course you feel confused!

Get a copy of "Women who stay with men who stray", it's fab. Lots of stories from women who either chose to stay in the relationship, or leave. When I read it, I tremember feeling that the women who left the relationships did a lot better than those who stayed, to be honest. I got the impression it was easier to leave, and keep your sanity & dignity intact, than it was to try to stuff down the anger, be "reasonable" and "move on".

That must be triply hard for you if he refuses to give you everything you need - including information - in order to get things straight in your head and find peace.

In a way, he could be treating you badly to make you kick him out. The fork thing, in particular. It smacks of, "How badly can I behave before she gets fed up and ditches me?" It's so disrespectful.

I think you need space and time, lots of time, away to think. Or anything to stopb these terrible, draining, roundy-roundy thoughts. It must be horrific.

I'm so sorry this has happened. What a nightmare.

Is she staying with her husband?

laurielou · 02/04/2009 13:19

Mishmash - you've just written my story of 5 years ago!! I really feel for you.

My DP said he loved me - always would - but thought he may grow to love work colleague too. At the time we were engaged & I just thought it was cold feet.

He doesn't like talking, & I needed to know EVERYTHING. It was like getting blood out of a stone, but eventually I got it all.

I told him to leave as I just couldn't stand to look at him.

I also (shouted) that he was insane, selfish & ran the risk of turning into his mother (I'm not even going there!). Suffice to say it was the shock he needed to go to councelling!!

You say Relate is "just not you" - no-one could've been more the un-Relate type than my DP. But it DID help him. We started off going separately, & when we decided we wanted to give our relationship another go we went together. If definitely helped.

That was all 5 years ago, & I can honestly say our relationship is better than ever. He moved jobs (whilst we were separated). He realises how close he came to losing everything (don't mean to sound arrogant, we just have a generally good life), & he always tells me how much he loves me & appreciates me.

I don't want this to be a me me me message, just hope that you can see that you can come back from this as a stronger couple. Don't get me wrong, its not easy, & it took a long time to trust him, & to stop questioning him & seeking reassurance.

From what you've written you really don't seem like you have "issues", he's making you feel like you have. Been there - I kept thinking maybe I'd pushed him somehow, become obsessed with wedding stuff, etc. But in the end no-one is accountable for his behaviour but himself.

Maybe you should spend some time apart to take stock. If he decides that he doesn't want to come back, as hard as that may be its better than living a lie.

I really wish you all the luck & happiness you deserve, with or without your DP x

mishmashmess · 02/04/2009 14:26

Thanks - to let you know, she really isn't an issue. He found out after that she was stealing from the firm (a charity) so he thinks she is an awful person and not the woman he thought she was. He tried to avoid me blaming her as he says he didn't want to see me blame her and not him - but couldn't at that point bear to own up as he knew I'd never take hm back (and he's right - if I'd have known at the time that he started it I wouldn't).

I think the problem is the mixed messages - he's warm and loving (except since we last blew up), I have access now to all his IT and phone so i can see nothing is up, but he just refuses to talk. He has even told her H that he regretted it all and wished the whole thing had never happened (in a mail that doubtless her H would have shown to her) And he does fully admit that the bad weekend was really his fault as deep down he was the one who caused the original problem. I guess he just isn't a talker.

OP posts:
HappyWoman · 02/04/2009 15:11

something you said just rang alarm bells 'if you knew then you wouldnt have taken him back' So what has changed now - i think if you ask yourself really honestly you feel you have somehow let yourself down.

Dont worry i am not judging you - i do the same all the time myself. I am almost 3 years down the line and when i look back i still question why i did let him come back (because i sure as hell would not again), and that makes me 'hate' the person i was even more iyswim.

You are looking for answers so that you can justify taking him back not only to yourself but to the world.

He needs to understand that, and by not wanting to talk he is not allowing you to move on in your own way - why should his way be the only way to deal with it?? It obviously isnt working at the moment is it.

I too agree that the easy way would have been to walk away, but i too wanted to give him that chance to change. My biggest fear is that he has not changed and once the fuss has died down he could do it again. Because i cant understand how he can do it once even. I think that is where you are now and it is perfectly acceptable.

Moving forward is easy and the first thing you BOTH have to accept that you can never go back to the way you were - it can be better but it is all new from now on.

Good luck and please dont let him take the control away from you again.

whoisasking · 02/04/2009 15:15

Hmmmm.

Transparancy. The only way you're going to be able to deal with this (IMVHO) is for him to be completely transparant about the whole thing. If he is not prepared to do that then I see very little future for you (sorry) as this will eat away at you.

The knife thing is very, very odd. Had he been drinking?

The refusal to talk is his shame. And it is his shame. Not yours. Your posts sound so very self-blaming. Please don't do that. He fucked up, not you, and if he wants to move forward he will have to eat that shame, lay all the cards on the table and MAN UP.

Grrrr. I'm cross for you (My XH did something very similar, and refused to talk about it - complained that I was "re-hashing old issues" I got therapy and am all better now! )

WhenwillIfeelnormal · 02/04/2009 16:32

Please stop blaming yourself. By with-holding information, your DP is controlling things. As an absolute minimum, I would suggest you get him to tell you everything once and for all.

I'm struggling with the chronology of what happened when in this story, so I'm sorry if I get things wrong. I sense you may have missed an opportunity right at the start though to get your marriage on a more balanced footing, that took into account your needs. That start is not too late, but I honestly believe you cannot move on until you know the full story. This is like post-traumatic stress believe me. You need to know what happened, when it happened and then compare the dates to what was going on in what you thought was your life at the time.

The good news in your story is that the OW's DH knows what went on. Congratulations for leaving that message - wish I had done the same! I'm still not sure the DH in our case knew about it all. At least you know that the OW didn't escape from this scott-free.

This is hard, tough advice that I'm about to give, but I feel that you need some sort of catalyst to get the truth. I would suggest telling him to take some time out away from the family home and give him a list of needs that must be met if he is to come back. In your position, mine would be: go to counselling (on his own at first)because I DO think the way he treated you at the weekend was abusive. Tell you EVERYTHING from start to finish. Agree to let you know if she ever contacts him again. Ask him to examine with complete honesty why he wants your marriage to work - is it you, or is it your DC and the "trappings" of your life. There may be others, but please do focus on what you want from this relationship.

By the way, it is perfectly normal to have these highs and lows with him - and to still want to punish him too. That will only fade when you are as certain as you can be that you have the whole story.

You can get through this, but only when he is forced to examine what he has really done and when it is all out in the open. Your imagination will be corrosive to this marriage (understandably) and he needs to accept that you will not have a marriage at all until he 'fesses up.

Amanda78 · 02/04/2009 21:09

you say you want to get past this and reach a point where you are compatible again? What I don't understand though is that this affair (and I must point out again that it was not simply emotional) happened when you thought you were compatible!

I don't pick up any kind of self worth from your posts or any feelings that what he has done to both you and your children is totally wrong.

I feel very sorry for you but I don't think you realise how horrible and damaging what he has done is. IMO its not about making him pay and make it up to you, its more about him trying to understand why he did it, addressing those reasons / issues and providing you with any clarity that you may need to understand it also and hopefully move on from it.

Seriously, sometimes too much has gone on and if you forgive this I really believe this is the start of a downward spiral especially as he seems to only be 'trying' in a manner that he wants too regardless of whether the way he is 'trying' is really how he needs and shoUld be.

Best of luck, I hope you can work it out as it is clear that that is want you want.

goodnightmoon · 03/04/2009 03:06

lots of different views here, but I'm of the school that it only self-torture to try and get every painful detail of what happened. No matter how much detail you have, it is not going to explain the how and why of it all. Most affairs involve one or both people projecting their fantasies of an ideal partner (sexually, emotionally, whatever) onto the other person, whilst seeing none of their faults (like being a thief!). It's natural that you want to understand it all, and rationalise it, but I don't think that is really ever possible. The less you think about why one thing happened when, and what led up to it and what came after, the better.

he has behaved abominably, but if you want to salvage the relationship, you have no choice but to forgive him, or at the very least accept what has happened.

That is a decision only you can make, and it sounds like your heart is telling you to stay with him and give him another chance. There will always be scores of people who say that is the wrong move, that you are a doormat, etc., but you have to go with your instinct.

Oh, and as Beautiful said above, it probably is easier to leave than to stay (and keep your sanity and dignity intact), but it certainly won't be easier for your DCs, and (IMO) a real partnership, in the real world, should be about more than what is easy.

mishmashmess · 03/04/2009 10:29

Thanks - it's hard to get everything into each post and I knew my first post was massive... I'm more than aware as is he of how damaging this has been. He's said that's why he now feels like he can't keep trying, because it was a stupid mistake but one that will always be there poisoning our relationship if recent events are anything to go by. Looking at it after writing it down I do think I have all the facts, just not in order so that's something I have to sort.

I suppose one explanation for the affair was that it happened when our lives were in a huge upheaval and he was taking a big business risk going it alone and moving location, so it was escapism. He has said that a big attraction of it was feeling like being on a rollercoaster and getting addicted to texts etc. However, him behaving like a child now is really making me think. I do want it to work, but him withdrawing really isn't helping me - he did wrong so why should I do all the work suddenly, just because something so massive made me really upset?

OP posts:
HappyWoman · 03/04/2009 11:32

you are right you should not have to do all the work - it always takes 2 to make a relationship.

I wonder if he really is as committed to the relationship as you want to believe.

He may be saying that but he sure is not acting it is he?

He may not have the guts to actually come out and say that he feels it is over - and is hoping (maybe even sub-consconiously) that you will do the ending - he seems to implying that he cannot go on knowing what he has done and is 'projecting' that onto you - saying that you dont want to carry on.

Please try and get him to open up to someone else - a consellor would be good and he needs to be totally honest to himself (something i think he has not had to be for a long time).

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