Feel free to ignore - just got to get this all out on paper so to speak

[lisalisa]

I have had a very very bad evening tonight.sort of like one of those evenings where you hit nadir and know there is no return.

My dh and I have a very difficult relationship and always have done. tonight we were to go to a charity dinner where some friends very kindly sponsered a table and invited us. for this i feel doubly guilty.

dh used to moan that I never dressed up for him or made an effort. today I bought new lipstick in a colour I never usually wear and new jewellary and really made an effort.

I asked him how I looked as we left the house and his only comment was that we shoudl hurry that we were late and he blatantly refused to look or throw any kind of compliment my way. As some background he never compliments me at all and we have had some prety hard conversations where he has practically tole me that he doesn't find me attractive and married me for personality etc . that is very very hard for a woman to hear. And when I have made such an effort, he can't even look for 2 mins. And I did look pretty - hair done nicely, cute kitten heels , bubble skirt .

I blew up at him in the car - it was really years of him never noticing - to the extent that our frineds tease him and say " Oh dh look at lisalisa tonight - doesn't she look lovely". He refused to back down and acknowledge that he could've given me a 2 minute look etc just moaning about the fact that we were late ( we wern't actually - about 2 mins only) and going on and on about how I'm not in touch with his feelisng etc.

we were to picj up my daughter's headmistress for this party and when we got to her house I got out of the car and started walking home - a 40 min walk thorugh not great areas. He circled streest looknig for me as headmistress was with him. i know he wouldn't have done it were he alone as this has happened once before and he just continued on his merry way.

this was just awful though as he sent headmistress ( she is a personal friend as well although not close friend of both of ours) out of car to talk me in. When I refused to come in he finally deigned to come out but all he concentrated on was fact atht I was bieng selfish and that our freinds were waiting and had paid for us to come. I told him that this was the problem - it was everyone, eveyrone and anyone but never me. Never ever me. When i am tired he never cares, when i am ill he never cares, when i've had a bad night sleep he never cares. When i try and talk to him about anythign at all - be it big or small his eyes galze over and he consults his watch.

He is just not that interested in me. Only in having a wife who will see him as the sun around which she will revolve.

Anway after 15 yrs of misery I suspect this will be very much it as now heaadmistress knows the whole situation has got so much bigger and more ugly.

i am so sorry

have a ((hug))

Ah ruby -had to be you...... Just as well the haircutting's done really isn't it?this post makes me look like a loon but I'm not really.

Poor you. I really think you should find out your legal/financial position with regard to ending this relationship. Living with someone who not only regards you as his inferior, less important than him and inadequate but tells you that this is how he feels is awful and very bad for your mental health. Why put up with it? He doesn't do anything to deserve your goodwill, or for you to service him domestically or sexually.

i know you aren't a loon

sorry things are so hard ... the hurt is so clear in your post

solidgold - we have 5 kids together. That counts for a lot. To divorce is very very hard and I'm so worried about mucking up the kids . Fwiw they don't see anythign as in front of them we are civil and even afectionate sometimes and they genuinely don't suspect anything. He is not rude to me in front of them so there are no bad messages passing.

On teh other hand as you say it is very hard to live like that. he will deny it and say he loves me and maybe in his own way he does( he had a difficult childhood)but to always feel disregarded and last in line is very hard.
I'm just not under any illusions that its any easier out there alone as a single parent of 5!

Does he bring anything positive to your relationship? If the answer is no then sadly it may be time to put yourself first (because he's not going to) and move on

I don't know how old your kids are but if he starts to treat them as disappointing/not good enough as they grow up, that won't do them a lot of good.

Your DP is slowly chipping away at your self esteem and confidence. Myabe he does love you in his own way but the way he is treating you is shameful.
At some point your DC's will pick up on his attitude and perhaps adopt this behaviour as it will seem to them normal.
A difficult childhood is no excise for this

You deserve better

Move on-without him you have made an effort-he hasn't.

I think that if you suspect it is realted to his rough chidlhood that you should suggest either counselling as the way he treats you IS NOT ok. As he says himself, you don't understand his feelings, maybe someone else can because he's had plenty of opportunity to tell you. If he's not willing to make the effort to sort himself out then you need to consider making the huge decision to seperate. See what he thinks, don't let him talk you round to him making an effort and being better, it sounds like you've had enough and as much as you'd like to believe him, you know its unlikely to happen.

Thanks everyone.

Feeling really rotten as I hardly slept at all last night.

Just feeling worried about how many other people know what is going on really as it was all played out in front of dcs' headmistress. This was in her personal capacity as a friend of both of us but still......

In my heart i do want to separate but am very worried about effect on dcs ( he is a good father) and also financial effects as my job is very unstable at the moment and he is not doing great either.

I just dont know if I have the emotional strenght to deal with 5 little broken hearts and all the inevitable questions and fall out over the weeks months and then years. In some ways its easier to soldier on knowing that I would leave when youngest dc is either married or at least past teenage years. I've stuck it out for 15 yrs - it would be antoher 15 yrs like this.

Also , i can't imagine someone else will want me - with 5 kids to "take on ".

"he is a good father" - he can still be a good father to them even if you dont live together.... agree 50/50 contact etc and let him have full responsibility those times for example...

go to relate...
go to counselling yourself
send him to counselling for his "rough childhood" (for which you are not repsonsible)
but do something.

realistically how will you be after another 15 years of this?

I think that even if the children do not see anything overtly negative, as they grow up they will pick up on his behaviour, and may either resent him for the way he treats you, or think that that is a normal way for one partner to treat the other, so setting them up to treat their own partners in a similar way.
You deserve so much more, and so do they.
Good luck and be strong, whatever you decide.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the headmistress didn't quitely press some Women's Aid leaflets into your hand the next time she sees you. Remember that, when you have an abusive partner (and sorry, but his utter contempt for you is abusive) the partner will tell you that his behaviour is normal and acceptable and you are a faulty human being who deserves it - but when the abuser mistreats you in public, most other people will think (and often say) 'Hey, abuser, why are you so shitty to your partner? Stop being such a cock.'

have you tried relate? It sounds like you're in a rut, and he sounds like he is behaving like an ignorant shit, but surely there is some way you can find of staying together, if 1) you care enough about what he thinks of you to be understandably and deeply hurt by his rude and pathetic rejection, 2) He loves you, albeit in a perculiar and selfish way, and 3) he is a good father.

lisalisa

Children are very perceptive; do not kid yourself that they do not suspect anything is wrong within your relationship with your H because they probably are aware that something is amiss. They are likely to be both confused and frightened.

You say he is a good father - I would have to disagree. He is not a good Dad if he disrespects and abuses you as his wife and his childrens' Mum in the ways he does. That sentiment as well is often expressed by abused women when they can think of absolutely nothing positive to say about their man.

He may well have had a difficult childhood but then he's not the only one. Do not make excuses for him. It is NO excuse or justification for how he is acting now. Some people do have crappy childhoods but they do not choose to abuse their spouse once married (like your H has done).

What are you both teaching them about relationships here?. After all we learn about relationships first and foremost from our parents. You cannot afford to impart such damaging lessons to them because they could likely go on to choose abusive partners themselves as adults.

And if you think you can stick another 15 years of this you are sadly mistaken. All that will do if you did that (heaven forbid) is grind you further down and he will take you down further with him into his dark world. Infact he has done a bang up job of dragging you down with him to date. Your children who would be adults themselves by that time could well accuse you of putting him before them. They will see what he does to you and wonder why you never left before.

Better to be alone than to be badly accompanied. This is no life for you or your children to have.

lisalisa

If you do go to Relate I would urge you not to go with your H to these sessions. Emotional abusers can manipulate such counselling to their own ends so you would need to go on your own.

I have a different take on this.

What were you hoping to achieve by getting out of the car and walking home by yourself through rough areas, in front of the headmistress?

And what did he mean by "You never consider my feelings"?

I don't think you should leave him. I think you should have one last cringe at your embarrassing behaviour then let it go; ring up the headmistress and your friends and apologise for being over the top; kiss your DH and apologise to him for being a bit of a twonk; then work out what caused this to happen.

If you had a bedrock of self-confidence you wouldn't be so reliant on compliments from your DH, you'd know you looked nice and that he just wasn't the gushy type. What's really going on?

Beautiful: I think you are the poster who had a long thread about the joys of being a possession 'surrendered wife. While this may work for you, suggesting to people who are being mistreated (and to be regarded and treated as inferior by your partner without your consent is to be mistreated) that they should basically eat shit and smile is not necessarily very helpful.

Oh i think BEAUTIFULK has a really interesting and refreshing takeo n things which is a mile away from usual MN kneejerk reaction of 'He's a twat.Leave him'.

I have no idea of the history here as some posters do, and certainly dont believe in any "surrendered wife" nonsense, but it was unlikely that you would have got any better response than the one you got, given the circumstances.

I would be furious ( and embarassed) if my partner had involved others in the way you did. Wouldnt you?

IN general (and not commenting specifically on the OP's situation as do not, obviously, really know about it) abusers rely on the likelihood of their victims not wanting to make a fuss in public.However, sometimes when the victim gets visibly upset or refuses to give the required reaction so the abuser slips a little bit of control and behaves horribly, the fact that other people are shocked and concerned sometimes helps the victim realise that the abuser's behaviour is not normal and not acceptable. WHile most people will shy away from intervening in what seems like a couple-squabble, if one partner repeatedly puts down, criticizes or upsets the other in public, people soon start to sympathise with the victim and offer her (or him) support: because abusers are hugely self-righteous with a massive sense of entitlement, they often convince their victims that the victims deserve the abuse and are unreasonable people; when the abuser starts to believe his/her own bullshit and behave horribly towards the victim in public, the response of other people is quite often a key factor in the victim realising that s/he is not alone and not unsupported. With regard to this specific post, the OP did actually mention that her partner's unkind treatment of her has caused comment among friends and aquaintances on previous occasions.

I'm not doing the Fascinating Womanhood stuff any more! But I really object to what Moondog describes (perfectly) as the MN kneejerk reaction.

There are two people in every marriage. It reads to me like the OP is in a completely negative frame of mind and is painting everything black. That "we have always had a difficult relationship" is telling.

There is no mention of violence, infidelity, addiction, illegal behaviour... Just a husband who didn't compliment his wife on her appearance. Hello? What are marriage vows all about? "Till he is uncomplimentary do we part"?

Also, none of his other "crimes" are described in any detail. He did go looking for her when she stormed off, but she assumes he only did this because the Headmistress was there. And he once "practically" told her he didn't find her attractive. Practically told her. I can assure you that any woman who had been told such a thing by her DH would remember every single word

I notice everyone is glossing over her DH's comments that the OP never considers his feelings. Why do we assume that this is untrue, or Narcississtic, and take every word of the OP as gospel?

I think that many husbands deserve a break, to be honest. Just because this DH didn't clap like a trained monkey when his wife tried on a new lipstick is not good enough reason for five children to lose their stability. FFS.

This is not emotional abuse. And the constant bandying around of the term "emotional abuse" on MN every time a wife is criticised by her husband is misleading and unhelpful. It makes you think, "Fuck, am I being emotionally abused?" The chances are you are NOT. It is RARE. If your DH is in a filthy mood because he's running late and you're obviously gearing up for a row, he is not abusing you. He is just grumpy. You should leave him alone and go about your evening with some dignity.

Now, OP, go and apologise and try to work out what is really at the root of this outburst. The end.

i can't imagine living with someone who refuses to compliment me in any way. it would eat at my soul.

and i am very comfortable and confident with my own being.

i am sure that this was a culmination of many things, one doesn't throw a shit fit of that intensity infront of friends after 15 years of marriage. and lisalisa hasn't ever come across as the dramatic type tbh

Now I regret my post. Sorry, lisalisa. I know I sounded horribly unsympathetic and bitchy. I have PMT and have mumsnetted all day, working myself into a fiery, self-righteous rage. I'm genuinely sorry.

I still don't think you should leave him! But I'm sorry for my brutal way of phrasing it.