Would you call it a day with relationship if there were still a few good things left? Long, sorry...

[cheerfulvicky]

Hi,
Couldn't be bothered to namechange, and anyway I don't really get all that. I've mopaned on here often enough already. This is very long, sorry. Just needed to vent but any opinions would be very welcome - losing the plot a bit here

I'm at a crossroads with my relationship with DP, we have been together about 1 1/2 years and have a 5 month old DS. We are currently going to Relate, but the slightly 'clutching at straws' look of pity/mild panic on the counsellors face does make me feel that we are not making much progress. I said when we first went along that it was my idea to go, and that I wasn't going for counselling to repair the relationship so much as to find out whether it can be repaired. I'm still really struggling with what to do. The counsellor commented that I seem very unhappy in the relationship, and I suppose I am. But I'm not sure how much unhappiness is normal before you throw in the towel.

I don't know anyone in the local area, as soon as I moved down I met DP and we moved in together after a month or so (his idea, I agreed) and were trying for a baby a few months after that (mutual idea, but foolish in retrospect). I don't know anyone else apart from my mum and his mum, so my local sources of support (and different perspectives) are limited.

I suppose I'm really asking if you have ever given up on a relationship when there were still good bits in it, because you felt it was flawed at the very foundations. I sometimes feel that because of how fast things moved ,and the age gap - I'm 25, he's 48 - things have never been right between us. There seems a huge imbalance in so many ways, and I just don't know if we have the 'base ingredients' (soprry, been reading lots of cookery books lately!) to make things work. He seems to dislike my mum and is a bit rude to her... His inability to hug or kiss our son makes me sad, but all these things seem 'surfacey'. And I think we could solve them out with Relate, but what if the whole relationship is built on something wrong or mismatched? How do you know when to give up when there are still good days, or at least good moments? How can I end things when there's still emotion there? When you feel a relationship dying and you genuinely believe that it's probably not going to be salvageable, do you immediately stop things there? What if you KNOW it's probably doomed but you don't hate each other??

I considered co-parenting because we seem to be doing that already, but the thought makes me sad. He owns the house, I have nowhere to go and can't stay at my mums (she lives on a boat). We cook and eat separately, our washing up is separate, finances are separate (I have all the 'government money' , he has his p/t salary) we go to bed in different rooms at different times, wake up at different times (snoring, his). In the evening we sit at our separate laptops in silence. Sometimes we watch a DVD together and that's nice. Or go for a drive. But that seems a pretty small foundation for a relationship. I told the counsellor that 'neither of us seems that bothered about changing things' and she said we are both seemed to be treating water. I'm getting tired of treading and I'm scared I might just bloody drown
Anyone?

hi vicky.
the things we are resistant too are often the things we need to do most! you seem like a very interesting person, and good to know. at baby groups we mostly yak about the children, really predictable boring stuff, occasionally you meet some who you click with which is fab, but anyway it keeps you sane. if you had some outlets, your home probs would seem less severe im sure. better to start on the things you can change rather than worry about what you cant (yet) good luck

And would it really be impossible to live on the boat again? Many people do, even with dcs. As long as you make sure he learns to swim asap! Think of all the canal folk in the past. They lived on their barges with hoooge families .

I have also known people who lived on boats with their kids - one woman even gave birth on the boat! The trouble is, my boat is 20 foot long, and you can't stand up in it. It's VERY small. It was mild insanity to live aboard when it was just me, with a baby it would be impossible. No running water, cooking on a tiny two ring burner, no fridge or shower etc. (There are facilities on the shore but basic, veeery basic.) The baby bath would take up the extent of the floorspace in the cabin. I'm not exaggerating
If the boat was bigger I would definitely do it, no question. I have lived also afloat for about 4 years in my teens, with my mum, so I know it's doable. I'm a bit of a lentil weaver so am kind of okay with roughing it, one day I want to live in a field in a yurt with some friends in Wales.

Sorry to hear about your row Tanee. In some ways we are in a similar situation; I think my DP is having a hard time adjusting to being a family and sharing stuff, he also seems a bit depressed. Don't apologize for venting here though, I lost count of the number of times I've hijacked other's threads . Did you two make it up yet? I can understand why you'd want to stay with him, and also that is must be really difficult. What did he say to the suggestion of individual counselling for just him?

Been feeling really conflicted again, we've had a nice couple of days and he seems to be making an effort to be easier to live with. Even when things are brilliant and I'm not wincing waiting for the next 'disagreement', I still feel a bit detached. I've started to wish I could live two lives, in parallel universes. In one life I would raise our child together, put up with some things he does(not washing for 2 weeks, never finishing jobs he starts) and demand he treats me better in the ways that matter (respect, financial equality, treating me like an adult not a child). I'd work hard at the relationship and make his house feel more like mine, but a bit of my own personality into it instead of just 'perching' here.
In the other life I would move out, get my own place, learn to drive and go back to work part time. My mum has already said she could help me a bit with DS as she knows I'm not keen on leaving with in a nursery. Both lives could be really good, they'd have their down moments but I'd cope with them and I'd be stronger.
I wish there were two of me.

What does it mean if, even when things are really good, I still dream about my own place, furnishing it slowly just how I like it, painting it the colours I like? And why do I feel I want to share this excitement with him, but I can't because it would hurt him? Thinking about moving out makes me feel really happy, and I've noticed I'm a lot more together mentally and confident and just generally demanding of respect when I've been thinking about doing that. Fantasizing about leaving has actually made my home life better, how crazy is that?!
Can two people love each other but just not live together? Is he, I or both just too independent to compromise? Should I always live alone? I think of Helena Bonham-Carter and Tim Burton with their separate houses,and I start to wonder who has the problem here. Is it me, him, both or neither of us?

Argh.
Relate tomorrow, haven't been for two weeks because of the snow, and then the last two sessions were separate. I cried all through mine. It should be interesting...

Caprica, thanks for that. That's actually a very good question, I mean REALLY thought provoking, and I might have to mull it over in my mind. I have a feeling therein lies the answer to this whole thing.

As it happens he owns his own home, has just finished paying off the mortgage. If I was single I would be relying on HB to rent, don't know if we would get it as a couple as he owns his own home. And he's working part time. Selling is not an option, the house has mundic (sp?) and the market is shit anyway. But I can easily put that aside in my mind, I can pretend that things are otherwise and what I would feel... Hmmmm.

I do remember once when I was sharing my dreams about living simply on the land in a yurt and so on, and he started talking about it as in what we would do, how it would be with both of us. And my heart kind of sank. I wanted to say, 'Wait, I don't know if you're in that picture. I'm not sure'. It remind me of a Smack the Pony sketch, where the bloke talks about wanting a wife and kids and all that...and his girlfriend is beaming and happy. And then he says, "But - not with YOU!".
I think maybe I am a man inside, the way I conduct some of my relationships. Isn't it the bloke who's supposed to be talking about 'finding himself', 'needing space to think', 'not knowing what he wants' etc? Ha.

Ah good! Found it www.channel4.com/video/smack-the-pony/series-2/episode-3/true-intentions_p_1.html

If you were married you would be equal in terms of joint assets. No wonder you feel the inequality in the relationship - it's a very real fact!
However one thing you have got going for you is that unless his name is on the birth certificate - only you have parental responsibility. Sorry, not read all the thread so I'm not sure if this is the case?

LL, yeah, you're absolutely right. He's been married once before, and I sense one of the reasons why he isn't keen to do it again is because it would involve sharing his stuff. In previous relationships, he always kept finances separate-ish, to varying degrees. I find this strange and its another area we can't agree on. He doesn't want someone scolding him (as he sees it) for buying frivolous stuff. I would never do that as we would have equal spending money if we could ever agree to share income. Maybe the 'equal' is the problem.

His name on the birth certificate, and our DS has his surname. He has my surname as a middle name. But I think DP is expecting me to feck off with his child and not allow him to see DS ever again; he talks as though that's what I will do. Says things like 'Well, I can't stop you can I?' and 'Actually I think you'll find I have hardly any rights when it comes to him' when I try and reassure him that DS is his too and DP's input in his life matters.
The counsellor even commented, asking if DS is actually his child or mine from a previous relationship, as DP sometimes talks about him as though he is MY baby, and not much to do with him. Especially when he's being difficult, e.g: 'Your son is crying'.

I don't know Caprica, maybe you're right. I think I'm just so scared of him controlling me, he has a tendancy to take over and 'show me how it's done' in every situation, I'm quite wary of opening up to him anymore about ideas. Last night was the perfect example.
I'm thinking of learning beekeeping, and he immediately started looking up plans for hives, saying he could make me one. I said carefully that I wasn't sure at this stage whether I would buy one or not, or whether making one would be a good plan. He got all huffy and said 'Fine I won't bother then'. I know he's only trying to help, but there's a vein of insecurity that seems to run through everything he does that he seems oblivious to, and means that I can't ever have anything that's just mine. He always has to be there as well. Maybe that's why I'm trying to run away. I just want him to let me live my life. He says ALL THE TIME that it's up to me what I do, he won't stop me, he'll always support me and won't stand in my way. That I can do whatever I like. But it doesn't always end up feeling like that; in reality I feel stifled and closely observed and commented on in everything I do. This is the man who will buy you cakes as a thoughtful gift after you mention you are thinking of going on a diet. I just don't know how to cope with stuff like that.

Maybe I should just print this whole thread and take it too Relate...

[hmmm] to cheerful.....regarding equality.....

Maybe you could raise the points you've made here at Relate - print it out and read through your thoughts? It's often easier if you have them written down. I find I forget a lot when I'm face to face with someone, but I can put my thoughts down clearly in writing.

You aren't a man, by the way, you just have the natural need to establish your own personality and independence that we all have, but that, historically, women weren't allowed. And I think a lot of men, particularly older men, still have that attitude engrained in them - it's how they saw their parents behave, or their grandparents. It's why the liberation movement began . Living in a yurt in Wales may be just the thing you want to do -and it's significant that you don't see him there. It may be that he is not the long term man for you, but part of your growing process. Heck, DP and I didn't get together till I was 45 and he was 49. We had a lot of relationships in between (he particularly ).

Glad to say my DP's getting better. He has these episodes every so often, and I am still learning how to deal with them. I'm finding that leaving him to get on with it and getting on with my own life until he's ready to be part of it again, works.

Yes, bullet points would be cheaper, considering how much Relate costs .

Hope it goes well tonight, let us know. xx

(pleased to say DP is definitely getting better!)

I think I will make a bullet point list for tonight, thanks. There are a few things I really don't want to forget to talk about.
That's great about your DP, I'm glad things are better between you

Hi Vicky, how did it go?

Hi,
it wasn't the easiest session ever. Lots of anger both ways, with him continuing to maintain that perhaps it would be better for DS is he 'bowed out' (I quote) of his life. The counsellor seemed quite intrigued as to why he thought that. DP seems convinced that I am going to take DS and run, even though I have said all along that I would never do that, I will never come between then and I will never use the threat of me doing that no matter how mad I am at him. I feel quite insulted to be labelled as someone who would do that to be honest, I am not like that at all.

Next week we are supposed to focus on the positives, and will look at the things that DP knows he could do to improve the relationship but won't say, and presumably also things I could do to make things better, although I feel like an empty shell at the moment, stripped of all desire or warmth towards him
I still really want to move out but feel confused about whether its the right thing to do, as each day there are moments when I wonder, feel that perhaps we could live together after all, or think that moving out is a mad idea. And then there are moments each day when the thought of going fills me with strength and hope.

Am toying with the idea of trying to work on the relationship for a set period of time, going all in, and then if we are still struggling then just call it a day. I feel like my negativity is getting in the way of seeing things clearly. Maybe if I tried really hard to be hopeful about things then the results would be better. I don't know if I have it in me. I felt a but pressurized by the counsellor to work on the relationship and not move out, even though I felt she was very understanding towards me last week.

Afterwards she suggested we take some time before driving back home, so we walked about in the freezing rain in stony silence for a bit, DP couldn't find the chip shop he remembered so we went home. Not a good night. Today we've been quite nice with each other, so I do start to feel I am imagining the bad times, sometimes feel that I am going mad!

Thanks for asking Tanee, and sorry for waffling on again.
x

Don't worry about waffling on - every bit of waffle helps!

It may be an idea as you say, to give yourself a time limit. But also, see what positives you both come up with next week. It will certainly be interesting to see what he says - and why he can't express those things to your face outside Relate.

I also can't understand why he thinks 'bowing out' of DS's life is constructive. Very odd.

I also think you should try to enlarge your social network. I know absolutely what you mean about having just a few close friends - I am the same - but you need to cast your net wide in order to find just a few people you feel empathy with. And socialising with others will help give you a wider perspective on your own relationship.

And go get that driving licence - so you can have the option of doing a Thelma and Louise with the wind in your hair.