Gave my toxic mother a chance to be a grandmother - and now it's crunch time...help!

[mogwai]

Okay, so briefly

My mother is totally "toxic". My childhood was very difficult and she eventually threw me out when I was 18 as she had remarried and had another child and I really wasn't part of her plans.

I went to university but struggled for years with depression. I had counselling on and off between the ages of 19-30 to come to terms with things.

I got married six years ago and invited her to the wedding. She saw fault in all of the arrangements and caused a huge stink about (1) not giving me away, (2) not going shopping for my wedding dress - which I was paying for anyway and (3) the seating plan for the reception. She caused such a huge stink and told so many lies that most of my family don't speak to me anymore. They have no idea of the extent of her behaviour so it's not worth trying to fight. It's been almost six years since I saw any of them.

I had my first baby in 2005 and after careful consideration I decided to write to her when I was 7 weeks pregnant and tell her how I felt and ask her to account for her behaviour. She had no idea I was pregnant and I deliberatley didn't tell her as I thought it would influence her response (wanting to be a grandmother I thought she's say anything to placate me).

She wrote back to my letter but tried to deflect any blame onto other people. I didn't accept this explanation and told her so. Eventually she admitted her behaviour, though showed no real remorse and didn't offer to put the record straight with my family. I decided I'd give her another chance anyway and see how things went, mainly for the sake of our baby growing up knowing it's grandmother.

My daughter is now 3.5 years and I'm pregnant with my second child (due in June). We lived abroad for a year in 2007 so she's only actually been properly in our lives for 2.5 years of my daughter's 3.5 years and already I'm beginning to wonder if I did the right thing.

A leopard rarely changes it's spots, I suppose you'd say. She remains a selfish woman who thinks first and foremost of herself. She is currently "not speaking" to me because she is upset that our daughter spent the night with her other grandparents while we attended a wedding earlier in the year. She maintains that I had asked her (and not them) to babysit, which is not true, as I don't consider my mother's house to be suitable for my daughter to stay the night (my much youonger sister comes in very drunk and with a variety of unsuitable men).

As she is "not speaking" to me, she has stopped offering us help with childcare at weekends (for example she will sometimes look after our daughter for an hour while I go shopping). As I am pregnant, have three jobs and my husband works night shifts, she knows I am tired and we have no other help (since the rest of the family don't speak to me).

She is also deliberately witholding my Christmas present as a reason she thinks I'll have to back down and get in touch. She's had her Christmas present from us (on Christmas eve).

I am increasingly disenchanted with her as a grandmother and do not want my daughter brought up in a family where people are "not speaking" to other family members over perceived (usually imagined) slights or who said what to whom. Witholding presents is an old trick of hers and frankly, I'm too old to put up with it now.

I'm not sure where to go from here. I'm pregnant and I'm tired. I could do with her help but not at this price. My daughter never actually asks to go and see her or talk with her on the phone so I think I'm on the cusp of being able to cut her out of my life without any repercussions for my little one. Leave it much longer and it may be too late.

Any advice??

for you

I wouldn't want my children to be exposed to that kind of manipulation. would she do this to your dd (withhold presents etc) do you think? if so, I'd be prepared to back away

oh dear I am sorry you have a mother like this. My experience is of an xmil like this and i can sympathise. I think another letter might be order, as she eventually responded positively to your last one.
Can you not write another one to other family members outlining mothers behaviour and then asking their advice on what to do about her/what would they do? As it might put them in your shoes for once and offer some help?
From my experience all I can say is she will come around in her own time on her own terms but do you have the strength?
How is your dh with this, can he talk to her?

Why do you bother? You have bent over backwards to try to allow her to play a part in your DD's life and she is still treating you like dirt. In your situation, the only letter I would b writing would be the one telling her that she no longer has the power to hurt you because you have decided to take the power away from her. I would tell her that you no longer wish her to be a part of your family's life because you all deserve better. It is preferable to have no relationship at all rather than this poisonous one. Sorry, I am usually all for trying to sort out relatinships with parents, having been there myself, but it really sounds to me as though this relationship is not worth the effort. for you though.

This woman would add nothing positive to your family life. I do not advocate cuttin gout lightly but you'll get precisely nowhere with this lady because she is too emotionally damaged. She can only help her own self with her issues - you cannot and should not help her.

Your Mother has shown many toxic behaviours - i.e taking no responsibility for their actions, never apologising for anything and blaming others.

Toxic people rarely change. Many do not, age does not necessarily mellow them. One generation i.e you has been profoundly affected by her, do not let a second i.e your DD become affected as well. Toxic parent problems more often than not become generational in nature too.

If you have not already done so I would suggest you read "Toxic Parents" written by Susan Forward. Also read the "well we took you to Stately Homes" thread on these pages.

You are right that you are paying a high price for the help that she gives you. She has made your life far more difficult than it needed to be and you should be proud of everything that you have achieved without her support. That she has managed to cut you off from other family members is just awful.

I would doubt very much that she is going to add anything positive to your dd's life, or that of you new baby. It is fortunate that your children will have a grandparent on your dh's side. Even if the didn't it sounds like they would be better off without her.

I think that a big concern for me would be that in four or five years she may start saying negative things to your dd.

Hello,
it sounds to me as if you will not gain anything but trouble by encouraging your mother into a relationship, i would maybe think about getting back in touch with your other relations, those who fell out with you over the wedding, they might be a better bet. Good luck with your choices.

My experience with my very difficult mother is somewhat similar - including huge ructions over wedding - subsequent strops about things which should have been pleasant occasions e.g. DD's christening, jealousy of in-laws etc.etc. As other posters have said, I don't really think you can expect damaged (and damaging!) people like this to change. Or that they will acknowledge the pain and hurt that they cause.

Given that, you've got to decide the best way of managing her, which causes you and your family the least amount of grief, but which you can also live with. For me the answer has been limited contact (make those sulks and 'not speaking' times work in your favour). It's not great, but then I don't think there are any great answers to difficult situations like this.

Best of luck with your mother, but more importantly with baby number 2.

Having a toxic person in your life is worse than having no one, imo and ime.

I'd rather be alone - than have my parents back. But that is my choice.
Go with your gut feeling.

sounds like you have really already made your choice but would like some support in it.

I say, let her go. You will feel much better when you do, especially as her help comes at a price. You don't want your DC to be exposed to the same level of tricks as you were/are, and you run the risk of her playing them off against you and her telling them lies "stories" about you.

If you really need to, make a list of the positives you would gain from keeping her in your life vs. the negatives - see which list is longer and go with it.

I really don't believe in this "blood is thicker than water" crap and that you should always love your parents regardless, but it is so ingrained that it is difficult to let go sometimes. You wouldn't put up with it from anyone else - take a good objective look at it and see how you feel then.

Good luck!

i will have to give you my opinion having been going through the exact experience,we as a couple ignored everyones advice about the grandparent involved her in our lives with our daughter who yes both doted on each other but its the whole long term package that we think counts she is toxic to the max but also a history of violence we tried gave her eveything we dared but it was never enough,she now has been stopped all contacts the police had to be involed and our now for year old is upset still a yr on luckily our two year old doesn't remember but stop her now before its too late ,and the one thing i would want more than anything is to have a close family with all our family but sadly its not always possible,take care and good luck

Thanks for your supportive messages and I'm sorry it took so long to come back to you all.

Regarding the rest of my family, I'm afraid they are a dead loss and of the opinion that blood is thicker than water. The main protagonists are my mother's brother and his wife, who took my mother's lies at face value.

Unfortunately my grandmother (their mother) died in rather tragic circumstances (very early onset alzheimer's) and they had both treated her very badly before she developed the disease. They both carry a huge amount of guilt about their own mother and subsequently feel that being having a mother is absolutely sacred.

Funnily enough my other has a very chequered history of falling out with the entire family over perceived slights or "who said what to whom" type arguments. She fell out wth her brother last Christmas (over something that was totally her fault/lack of judgement) but they are just about speaking again.

Yes, I have the book "toxic parents" - found it on Amazon ages ago and it was like a weight off my shoulders and really helped me have the courage to write the first letter to her four years ago (because it made me feel vindicated).

It is indeed sad about the rest of my family, though when I look back, my relationship with them was very one sided and I felt I always made so much effort in comparison with them. I was very sad for a long time but as the years have gone on I'm more disappointed that they choose to believe the stories of someone like my mother, who even as a child used to hold her breath and faint to get attention, to actually believe I could have said and done the things she claims without question or without giving me the benefit of their doubt.

When I had my daughter in 2005 they didn't acknowledge her birth and I've made sure they have never met her as I don't want her to be confused by who they are and how they fit into her life (which they never will). Interestingly, my mother reports that while I was living abroad in 2007 my uncle was musing about the possibility of coming around to my house with some flowers when we returned and gauging my mother's opinion on how I would react (and she reported this without the slightest hint of irony at the situation she had caused!).

He never did, he never had the courage, and I'm glad he didn't because that's one sleeping dog I'd prefer not to disturb- I hate conflict and as I don't want to know him after all this time, there seems little benefit for anyone.

I suppose in my heart I realise that I've come to the point I just don't trust her not to damage my daughter. Before now my DD would forget things and confuse things but now she's 3.5 she's got more capacity to be influenced and I don't like her being alone with my mother. The "not speaking" episodes do give me some breathing space but I am concerned she will soon begin to pressure my daughter to go and sleep over at her house (which I could not tolerate on any level). Supervised access is one thing but the inevitabe pressuring that will accompany this could get tricky.

Perhaps if she sulks for long enough it will give me enough rope and all that.