Domestic violence. First steps to take to get aggressor to keep away etc. Advice pls .(long alert!)

[gaussgirl]

I have a dear friend I want to support as much as I can.

She is in what she also knows to be an increasingly untenable situation. Her DH left 2 years ago (midlife crisis turning into a breakdown). She still allows him free access to the family home 'so he can see' the youngest, J, who's 11. He drops in at will, sometimes tearful and desperate, sometimes literally stonewalling them all, sometimes distractedly spending a bit of time with 'J' who desperately misses the bloke daddy WAS before all THIS. SOMETIMES he becomes violently verbally aggressive. He was a charming, polite cultured middle class man before this but now it's "You effing THIS and that", aimed mainly at my friend and the 2 DDs who are now 17 and 19. They've written him off as a loser. Yesterday he threatened to 'kick your effing head in' to his 17 year old DD.....when she reminded him of her name as he'd used the 19 year old's name.

Thing is, my friend seems paralysed by inaction. She feels she married him in sickness etc and says 'But I know he still loves us' and 'He's ill', which is at least true but she has conceded that things, re last night are spiralling out of control. He's under enormous pressure at work- he lost one job and is being sued by clients and is apparently up to his eyeballs in debt. Is managing to take another woman out to dinner though, we note... She admits she is becoming frightened of him and what he might do, listening out for noises outside at night etc.

We (me and another friend) are desperately trying to get her to see a solicitor. We really feel she needs to push him to arm's length til he's made to see he is mentally ill and needs help. I'm finding myself saying things like 'many parents who love their children jump from hotel windows, with one under each arm'...And 'now you KNOW he's threatening physical violence towards your DCs, CAN you be seen as complicit if he carries through if you haven't acted to protect them?' (Can she?).

I must emphasis here that I have been as supportive as I feel I can be over the past 2 years. I'm not nasty or provocative - I just am running out of helpful things to say as - do you agree? She SO needs to ACT to prevent anything potentially really bad happening! She is a proud woman and is very embarrassed that she 'hasn't been able to keep my man/what sort of wife AM I?' etc. Admittedly, he is the LAST bloke you'd imagine acting in the bizarre and weird ways he has been over the last 2 years: fanatical attention to the health and happiness of 3 guinea pigs having walked through the house to the garden without acknowledging the EXISTENCE of his family, lots of eye rolling, tics, pacing, knuckle gnawing, rhythmical tapping of his head against walls, mid conversation....

SO finally, my questions:

How does she take out a domestic violence order? Should she see the police, a solicitor?
Should she keep documenting her failing health (anxiety, depression) to her GP (who passes on stuf fto her DH's GP re DH's deteriorating mental state BUT who rarely sees DH and is a bit of a non-believer in mental illness. Also DH is clever. He could appear perfectly normal in needs must!)
How soon is an order acted on?
Does it tend to include a distance?
What sort of conditions are placed on the aggressor?
How soon can she arrange for contact with the 11 year old is supervised?
How seriously will she be taken/protected? She is very scared that acting will provoke him further.

Thanks. Sorry it's so long but I so want to go to my friend with some of her options.

He definitely sounds mentally ill and his behaviour seems erratic to say the least. Perhaps he's had some sort of nervous breakdown or is even taking drugs of some kind.

I wouldn't know where to start advising you so I won't wade in on this. Can you contact the CAB, Womens Aid or a mental health charity for advice? I think the CAB should probably be a first port of call.

Sounds like my friends ex-husband. His behaviour got more extreme until he tried to kill her. He's now in prison (again), she's divorced him, thank God.No contact whatsoever.

In his case it was drink and drugs. Was assessed by psych dept and found to be fine.

The Police were very supportive as were Victim Support. I don't know what the provision is like in your area but I would advise your friend to contact them.

Thanks everyone. Yes, I think it's definitely a breakdown. He became really irrational about turning 50. Like many men he started the cycling thing- but he'd be gone for hours, say cycling over to her parents place 5 miles away where he'd been a thousand times before- but he'd call her and say 'I'm lost!'. He was suddenly buying clothes suitable for a teenager, and saying things like 'I can't DO this any more, I can't be in this family, I don't want to die still in this marriage, I don't want to feel that is THIS all there IS? I can't have people needing me, pressurising me, always around me! I can't have it!' etc. My friend puts remarkably little emphasis on a thing his sister told her (none are close) a while ago which was that this bloke 'had a breakdown in his 20s' where he'd shut himself away from his family for 2 years before he came out of it.

As one of you said, I believe there IS some 'choice' in it in that he's apparently seeing another woman (who is in the legal profession so perhaps isn't stupid!). We (me and me mates!) originally thought it was the bloke's cowardly way of saying "I want out, but I want it to be YOUR fault" but it's been 2 years and in many ways, he's got what he wants: a wife and family willing to accommodate his coming and going (though his DDs won't have a bar of it!), AND a bit scared of him, a girlfriend and free reign to spend their dwindling cash. My friend has gone from Waitrose to Lidl yet he, having promised to see DS of a weekend, will text from Prague where he is with 'the lads' (he does have a very wealthy friend who he sees as 'successful' and himself as a failure against that yardstick)....

DS will have been spending the weekend looking out the window for daddy's arrival or at his phone for a text. I think- and this is my harder side coming through- my friend needs to stop putting her DS through this will he/won't he torture. SHE justifies it as being 'No one will be able to accuse ME of breaking up father and son!'... The DS is a lovely boy though very immature in many ways thus is far too young to be able to see for himself that actually he's getting nothing out of this relationship.

Bear in mind this was a man who would have moved heaven and earth to protect his family and make everything OK. In retrospect, my friend can see that there was a bit of overweening protectiveness going on. She couldn't go to push the chair back from the evening dinner table and he'd leap up to pull it back for her. Mr Chivalry? But perhaps he set himself unrealistic standards in being Tarzan to the family? Then, with the Crunch and his business failing AND turning 50 it all crumbled.

I do wonder whether it'll be one of the DDs who eventually calls the police? My friend would like that in some way as it would remove the responsibility from HER but on the other hand she would take on the burden of guilt because it wasn't HER who started the wheels in motion that will protect the DS. And herself.

Maybe your friend has gone along with this for so long that it freaks her out to try and say to herself 'he may be ill and needs help' - if so, she 'should' have done something about it ages ago. (not my opinion, but perhaps what is going through her head). She sounds hemmed in by 'shoulds' and 'oughts'.

Sounds like everyone is having a rotten time at the moment - but she is going to have to see this for herself. It takes a serious amount of chutzpah to set in motion a process which may result in sectioning - it is a truly horrible feeling when you suddenly realise that the system has taken over, you no longer have a say, and the person at that moment is of course behaving angelically... I can't blame her for being reluctant to go down that route, whether or not he is actually ill.

I can't really think what she can do in her current mindset - if she sets boundaries, he is going to pour a LOT of grief and aggression over her head - this would be better than doing it over the dcs, but hard to take on. I wonder if she might consider contacting Rethink? (google it). I always recommend them on here but they can be really helpful (services vary by area). Might feel a bit gentler than calling the police on him.

Dittany- I agree with some of what you say, but my friend knows 100% that her DH is mentally ill. Trouble is he absolutely, categorically won't see it. There's oh so many examples of wacky behaviour- buying 3 SACKS of cabbages and 6 bales of straw for the guinea pigs; needing a pair of shoelaces so buying 3 CARDS (300) pairs. Needing a couple of bottles of water for a 200 mile car journey so buys 24 bottles; house exterior needs finishing. He spends 3 HOURS lining up and realigning the paint cans across the back lawn, drawing back to check their symmetry. He said to her yesterday 'oh, I might take J out- maybe bowling? I dunno. I can only do oh, I dunno, Thursday'. She says "But that's J's BIRTHDAY!"..Normal forgetful separated dad response: 'Oh god! I'd forgotten! Shall I take him bowling with a couple of mates as a treat then?". THIS bloke.."Oh, I see. We'll leave it then. See you". Etc.

Most of the odd purchasing and behaviour happens apparently unobserved so it's not for effect.

As for middle class behaviour- that manifests in his seeming ability to fool people. Though not all the time, He was 'getting away with it' at work... til he threatened to kill them. There are endless stories of exhausted exasperated middle aged women taking aged, dementia or Alzheimer suffering mothers to a young and inexperienced GP for assessments that might bring some respite to them- and having mother behaving charmingly dotty, politely glossing over the fact she can't remember her own name and so forth!

Personally if someone is becoming more and more potentially dangerous, what recourse does she have but to escalate the issue to 'Critical' by getting him sectioned? In fact, sadly, I believe he HAS to DO something before that might happen. You're right there, choosy!

With the 'pathetic' well, deep in my heart I DO want to shout "What the eff HAS to happen before you realise you have a responsibility to protect your DCs from this crazy bloke?"...but I doubt that would have anything but the opposite effect!

Also dittany, better educated people, even through mental illness, are more likely to at least initially torture emotionally rather than the physically that would immediately bring them to the attention of the police thus perhaps on to sectioning.

The behaviour sounds remarkably similar to some of the things dh1 got up to, actually.

He died (head injuries following a fall during an epileptic seizure) - at the time I was trying quite hard to convince our GP that there were serious mental health issues.

Does this man drink, to your knowledge? Dh1 was an alcoholic. (Although whether he drank because he was mentally ill or was mentally ill because he drank was never fully determined).

Anyway - your mate really really needs to start seeing the man he is now. He is extremely unlikely to suddenly turn back into Mr Lovely Dh

No, I don't think there's alcohol or illicit drugs involved, to be honest (though we may all be fooled!).

I agree entirely that the man she married in sickness/health etc isn't the man he is now- and possibly never will be? To cite that as an excuse not to walk would be worthy IF he were doing something to address his personality change. But he doesn't give a pygmies, and nor is anyone out there who MIGHT suggesting he should! Right now in his distorted world, it's him against everyone else. And he CAN continue strolling into the family home to cause upset and mayhem- then leave.

My friend is terrified of being alone forever. Dunno why as she's drop dead gorgeous! She maintains there could never BE anyone else, it would destroy her DS... mm?

Incidentally, and tellingly, the sexual side of their relationship ended YEARS ago. Lots of affectionate cuddling but none of the real action...

Deep in her soul , I do wonder if, almost unconsciously this whole thing excites her inner 'Scottish Widow'? God, I don't want to sound glib, but there IS the faint whiff of martyrdom about it. I see it as a coping strategy- I mean, saintly forbearance might seem an easier option than direct, possibly ugly confrontation and wresting back control of her and her DCs lives.

This is not to suggest I feel 'she's made her bed' and so on. I genuinely want to go on supporting her as well as I can as she is a dear friend- and she'd be there for me- it's foibles of character which make people interesting in the good times but perhaps incorrigible in the bad!

i'm sure you've hit the nail on the head there gaussgirl.

What is extremely sad is in 10, 20 years' time she is going to look back and think, why on earth did I think being passive equalled being virtuous?

dittany, isn't it at least possible that mental illness is not recognised enough in working class men, rather than it's too recognised in middle class men?

similar story here - so speaking from bitter experience -

she is not responsible for his mental illness (or not)

he and he alone is responsible for recognising it and asking for help.

he is responsible for his behaviours. she cannot change him but she can change her reactions to his behaviour. he behaves badly - he doesnt get t come visit next day. like a toddler he hs to earn those rights to be in her home.

she does have a choice to change this situation. she does NOT have be responsible for him - "in sickness and in health" does not apply when that sickness manifests in controlling, abusive behaviour.

so many times i had him in front of me gagging or retching or telling me how sick he was - then when i got gp on the phone to talk with him he says "oh i am fine"...gp later told me "we cannot help him if he doesnt want it"

he is not living with her right? so she has to be clear when he can and cannot come. she needs to start saying you can come to see the children on mon wed and fri between 4 and 7 pm - because your behaviour is too unsettling. if that starts going well we can review.

setting the boundaries. he will undoubtedly resist this.

it isnt clear -are they still married? has s/he applied for divorc?

she has to stop thinking about curing his illness because he is an adult.and she cannot force him to go to gp or admit his isues. only he can do that. and if he doesnt tehn she ahs to let him know - you seek help for your illness or you dont come here.

she has to think about her children especially the younger one.

she is not responsible for him

say to her "you are not responsible for him he is an adult" "he alone is responsible for his behaviours" (i had the classic "but you make me tell you you are full of sh$t; you make me frustrated" "if you were xxxxx i would not be like this", )

repeat and repeat...i had friends who said this to me and finally it got thru to me. i thought i cld help him. i could not; only he could. i didnt realise i had a choice to not be with him. it took counselling to realise that.

he is unlikely to get sectioned. the fact he presents himself well is like my ex - psychiatrists discharged him from ward and he came home, smashed it up and stabbed himself with kitchen knife... but the psych unit said oh he was fine when he left here...

this man is revelling in his "illness" some of which may be real - but it does not justify his aggressive behaviours and verbal assaults.

she needs to go to solicitor to take some steps...she could apply for divorce on grounds of unreasonable behviour to get message thru.

she could apply for residence order for the children wich brings it to court and then brings the issue of contact to the fore.

she needs to be calling the police to report his verbal assaults and harrassment. so that these are recorded.

getting an injunction is costly (would she get legal aid?) and she may not have grounds at present especially if she has no record of calling police. that was the situation i was in - verbal abuse and harassment but it was almost i had to wait for something really bad to happen...which did happen...

meanwhile ;psych said he was no longer mentally ill and it was just personality problems.

Well said, both of you.

For the record: they are still married- sadly my friend won't even THINK about the D word. No, she doesn't appear to be setting any boundaries at all. She actually comes across as a sitting duck.
Financially I don't know where they're at except to say not a good place! She 'hasn't got the courage to check their accounts because she's scared of what she knows she'll see'. Actually, written here in black and white, she DOES come across as a bit of a doormat! Sorry!

It would be fair to say that over the years I have got to know here, she, by her own admission, has 'more front than Blackpool' BUT she is actually a mass of small insecurities and anxieties. I believe her DH was the captain of the family ship- not so much 'in control' but the rock in the centre of the family. Someone who's known her and DH's history from the very start, 25 years ago, told me a little unkindly that he was very much the up and coming businessman with the 'difficult' father (who held high office locally- hard act to follow??), and SHE was 'the trophy wife'. I don't see it in quite such a WAG-ish way but I can see what she (my 'informant!') means. I am constantly amazed at my friend's apparent unwillingness to bring this back under control. But, as I said earlier, she does appear to have justified her inertia to herself with
a) 'sickness and in health'
b) fear of what he might do if she makes a stand
c) embarrassment! She says she so NEEDS more hours at work but has too much pride to tell our boss. I have suggested that the boss doesn't actually give a toss WHY she needs more hours and she doesn't have to tell the boss why anyway. There IS an element of self importance there- that her marriage breakup is somehow unique and different. Perhaps she is 'enjoying' the Scottish Widow bit more than I think? Or am I being really nasty to someone in extremis? I don't know!

But what I do know is actually nothing has changed in almost 2 years- except the abuse seems more common. I think her fear of 'being alone for the rest of my life is so horrible I can't go there' is a big block. Whilst he wanders in and out it perhaps presents to her a chimera of 'being together and married' whereas the reality of "OK, sunshine, shape up or ship out" opens new cans of worms.

However I don't think anyone can go on like this long term. And another small issue- do you think she might lose the respect of her DCs in the long run?

yes tell her -
what is this doing to your children?

what are they going to think when older - that you stood up to a man and made him get help, or you let him ride roughshod over you all?

say to her: the research says this will only get worse.
READ the articles on domestic abuse

pracitcal help you can give her?

buy her the lundy bancroft book and tell her to read it. if she refuses and says "oh no it isnt him" - ok not all chapters relevant but most will be - then say - i will support you when you have read this book and seen which situations match your own.

Why Does He Do That?: Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men by Lundy Bancroft (Paperback - 1 Sep 2003)
20 Used & new from £6.53 amazon.co.uk

tell her - I am worried about your safety and your childrens safety

you need to take steps to protect your children and yourself.

if he is ill and it is mental illness and he doesnt know what he is doing then you need him away from you - or only around with another adult present (not his adult children)

I agree with all of the above. If you could get her to keep a diary of what he says / does as if / when she goes to the police or solicitor this will be required.

Also, it might make her see what a wanker he is.

The diary is a good idea. I have suggested that every time things deteriorate she goes to her GP (the poor woman is on antidepressants as a result of all this!) to get everything documented, which she more or less has been doing so at least there is SOME record! She also tells her GP all of the bloke's doings and her GP calls HIS GP apparently, but of course, my friend won't know the consequences of that AND what can his GP do? He can't 'call him in' and when he DOES visit, what happens when the bloke is asked "How's things, then?" and he says 'Fine". end of, really! My friend is worried that he may suicide things are so spiralling out of control in his life- I'M worried that he might do it after taking the lives of the folk he 'blames' for his life not being the stellar (financial) success his 'mate's' is. The mate is 'local boy made good', all flash and bling, back slapping, 'hail fellow and well met' etc.

The bloke in question has hardly been a slouch. I mean their home is even now probably worth around 300K. Hardly the mark of a slacker! BUT who knows HOW much he's borrowed from the equity... he bough a flat, a do-er upper JUST as the market faltered. God knows what's going on there. My friend refuses to visit. Not sure how he managed to borrow off the equity in the house (such as it is) without her signature but vague enquiries from me in that direction are politely rebuffed which is fair enough in that she doesn't want EVERYONE to know her financial situation but it appears she only knows if the mortgage is being paid if the bailiffs don't appear at the door!

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but no matter how supportive and pro-active you are in helping her, unless SHE wants to leave for HERSELF and SHE wants things to change; nothing will.

She seems like she's so brainwashed and fearful that it is far too scary to even contemplate sorting it all out. This is very common.

All you can do is be there for her IF she decides to do anything; no-one can force her and the more people go on about it, the more she'll defend him (IME - warped, but it happens)

Yes, you are right re HER deciding enough is enough.

What I'd like to be able to do is to say:

Right, now he's done THIS (the instance being the verbal threat made to the DD), you need to do THIS. This what will happen, he will get a notice blah blah blah. But the woman is very resistant! Both me and the othe rwoman who are trying to support this wife have said 'Call CAB! Find out your rights!' but one response she gave me was 'I don't want to spell out my family angst to some 20 year old....', OK see a solicitor "I can't afford it'. etc. She was able to get her eldest DD help for having separated parents in terms of grants and I believe her family tax benefit or whatever it's called reflects her single situation- I'm sort of amazed she actually did anything about these issues, to be honest! But the legal separation of interests and the safeguarding of the family home don't seem to enter into it.

It does occur to me that maybe she should write to him, and maybe tell him she will be away for a few days so don't think about coming around to cause problems- once you've read this, we need to talk in a mediated place.

But I doubt she'd do that in view of the rest of the inertia, do you?