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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

My mum wants to have a discussion about our roles soon - advice please?

22 replies

CharCharGabor · 03/01/2009 22:26

I posted a few days ago about her calling herself Mummy to DD. I know the general consensus was to avoid contact for a while but I would like the opportunity to get some things off my chest.

She seems to be a complete narcissist, I have discussed this with my Dsis and she agrees. Today my sister met up with my mum for lunch. My mum verbally attacked her without warning, blaming her for all that's gone wrong. She said the reason their relationship broke down was because of my sister's selfishness and bitterness. She said a lot of other nasty things, at once point screaming and banging her hands on the table. This was in the food court outside dsis's work She was mortified.

My mum has now said to my dsis that she needs to work out what her role is in our lives now and has said she wants to discuss it with me too. As much as I would like to tell her to stay away from us, I feel I would like to express some of my feelings first. I know it's probably pointless as she will project the blame onto me, but atm I feel like I'm been shat upon and would like to get my assertiveness back and some self esteem.

Anyone willing to help me out with how to do this? I won't post about what I want to say until I see if anyone will, as it'd fill the page! TIA anyone

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sayithowitis · 03/01/2009 22:32

If it was me, i would write a list for myself, of all the points I wanted to make. I would not set out to blame her, rather, I would tell her that when she did/said/acted in a certain way, it made me feel . i would say clearly, but not in an unkind way, that as an adult, I do not appreciate being made to feel like that and that MY decision, therefore, is to reduce/cut contact with her until she is able to treat me in a more respectful way, suited to an adult relationship.

LaDiDaDi · 03/01/2009 22:33

Would it be possible to send her a letter rather than meeting up with her face to face?

newgirl · 03/01/2009 22:34

i wonder if it is worth finding a family counsellor who can help you all with this? that way you should all get support and time to say what you think?

otherwise i think it will take remarkable skill from you all to really listen to your mum and not to jump in and say 'but but' etc - and of course for her to do the same

it sounds like it would be really helpful

CharCharGabor · 03/01/2009 22:37

Thanks sayithowitis. I will probably say it like you've said, however she has a skill for invalidating all my feelings and assuming innocence on her part so I'm unsure of how successful I'll be. I am going to make a list, but it's difficult to know how much to put on it. I know this won't work but I need to try before I do cut off contact. I feel as if I've been demeaned and undervalued. Also disrespected as an adult. She dislikes me having an opinion and wants to control me seemingly. She dismisses what I say and badmouths me to her family. Writing this I think it's pointless. I don't know why I feel the need to. I suppose I'm fed up of bottling it up and being treated like a robot.

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TotalChaos · 03/01/2009 22:39

agree with LaDiDaDi. I'ld try and avoid this discussion if possible - given how her meeting with your sister went, it doesn't sound like it's going to be a mutual exchange of views.

CharCharGabor · 03/01/2009 22:40

I suppose, but I don't think she'd read it ladidadi. And if she did she's dismiss what I said and I wouldn't have a chance to defend myself.

I don't think she'd go to a family counsellor tbh ng. She likes to keep everything private. It's a good idea though, I would do it. She will do what you've said, or just say 'No I don't,' to anything I say. I am planning to be calm during the conversation because she likes it when I lose control as she can regain the moral highground. She is tremendously fucking annoying though.

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CharCharGabor · 03/01/2009 22:42

I know I should TC. I just don't know how I can deflect her if she starts to talk about it. I would say 'I don't feel comfortable discussing this at the moment given the way you behaved with dsis,' but she told my dsis not to tell me about it and I don't want to get her into trouble. I know that sounds a bit childish.

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sayithowitis · 03/01/2009 22:51

If I was doing it, I would be selective about what I would put on the list. By that I mean, I would only mention the really big issues, not all the little niggles as well. It sounds as though there is so much there that you could almost write a whole book. i would therefore think carefully about a few really big issues and stick to those. i think I might also be prepared to tell her what you want from her in order to: a)make amends ( if you feel that is appropriate) and b)'how to start over. If you get her to agree to anything, you need to be ready to put it behind you and move on. Do you feel ready to do that? i ask, because when I was in a similar situation with my Mum, it took several months of no contact (my choice) before I felt ready and able to move on and not keep referring back to the past. Things are now great between us and the past is very firmly in the past.

CharCharGabor · 03/01/2009 22:58

Tbh I don't think things will ever be good between us. She doesn't ever think she's done anything wrong so it can't be resolved. I have tried to have this conversation before but it ended in a shouting match. I will only mention the big issues, thanks for that. Don't want to get petty.

I want her to treat me with respect and as an adult should be treated. I want her to acknowledge that I am a good mother and to stop giving judgements and criticisms in the name of 'advice.' I don't know what else I want.

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newgirl · 03/01/2009 23:10

hard isnt it? its a shame she doesnt feel ok about a counsellor - i reckon its a generation thing - my mum would hate it if i suggested that too

she sounds so like my mum - all i can do is keep her at a safe distance - not see her too often and be firm but polite in what i say

aghhhh mothers...

Uriel · 03/01/2009 23:15

Well, you don't have to discuss it with her. So come to a compromise with her. You agree to discuss things, she agrees to do it in front of a counsellor?

CharCharGabor · 03/01/2009 23:32

She doesn't do compromise, unfortunately. I've always let her walk all over me. I would like to distance myself entirely, but she lives close and I don't even know how I'd do that. God I so don't need this. Thanks all for advice btw.

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Gettingagrip · 04/01/2009 00:56

Hello Charchar

If your mother has NPD there is no point trying to talk to her about anything unfortunately. I posted on your previous thread and suggested she may have this disorder.

She sounds as though she is using divide and rule with your sibling and you, which is a typical N behaviour to keep herself at the centre of things, even if that is unpleasant and chaotic. All communication then goes through her.

If she is an N she will not be able to comprehend what you are trying to say to her, as she does not have that ability.

This is the very worst thing for the victims of Ns. The only closure you can ever get is that which you work out for yourself.

I see my N family, but I protect myself at all times.

HTH xxx

thumbwitch · 04/01/2009 01:13

CHarChar - if your need to tell her stuff is just to get it off your chest, then you might as well go ahead and do it. But if you are expecting to achieve anything in terms of recognition, understanding, remorse, or change, then don't waste your breath. Write her a letter, she might read it, she won't believe or accept any of it. In fact, don't write her a letter cos she'll have concrete evidence to use against you later.

She wants to re-evaluate her role in your and your sister's lives, hey? Well you do realise you won't have any say in her re-evaluation, don't you?

If you can, make sure that you and your sister have your chats with her together, so that you both hear the same thing. If she won't accept that, then don't agree to it.

I am for you - it is horrible to have to deal with a person like that at any level, but for it to be your mum is the worst.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 04/01/2009 09:00

I would agree with the responses of GettingaGrip (I also have N relatives) and thumbwitch.

Telling a narcissist that your feelings are important will actually mean nothing to them.

Distance for you from your Mother both physical and emotional is the only way forward. You will come off emotionally worse in any "chat" with your Mother (as your Sister has seen); it will be completely one sided - it will be all her again. As for counselling Ns are extremely difficult to treat and are unlikely as well to acknowledge that they have any such issues.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 04/01/2009 09:05

www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/index.html

This is a useful resource re NPD as it is written with laypeople in mind.

CharCharGabor · 04/01/2009 09:23

Thanks all. I know it's pointless tbh, but I would still like to say it more to get it off my chest. I know she'll never take responsibility for any of it. Dp also suggested writing a letter, but I disagreed for the same reason as you say thumbwitch. My sister didn't even raise the subject, she thought they were just going for lunch. I am dreading her calling now. I don't even know if she will call, she usually expects me to and complains if I don't.

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AttilaTheMeerkat · 04/01/2009 09:28

From that website I mentioned:-

Narcissists are (a) extremely sensitive to personal criticism and (b) extremely critical of other people. They think that they must be seen as perfect or superior or infallible, next to god-like (if not actually divine, then sitting on the right hand of God) or else they are worthless. There's no middle ground of ordinary normal humanity for narcissists. They can't tolerate the least disagreement. In fact, if you say, "Please don't do that again it hurts," narcissists will turn around and do it again harder to prove that they were right the first time; their reasoning seems to be something like "I am a good person and can do no wrong; therefore, I didn't hurt you and you are lying about it now..." -- sorry, folks, I get lost after that. Anyhow, narcissists are habitually cruel in little ways, as well as big ones, because they're paying attention to their fantasy and not to you, but the bruises on you are REAL, not in your imagination.

Thus, no matter how gently you suggest that they might do better to change their ways or get some help, they will react in one of two equally horrible ways: they will attack or they will withdraw. Be wary of wandering into this dragon's cave narcissists will say ANYTHING, they will trash anyone in their own self-justification, and then they will expect the immediate restoration of the status quo. They will attack you (sometimes physically) and spew a load of bile, insult, abuse, contempt, threats, etc., and then well, it's kind of like they had indigestion and the vicious tirade worked like a burp: "There. Now I feel better. Where were we?" They feel better, so they expect you to feel better, too. They will say you are nothing, worthless, and turn around immediately and say that they love you. When you object to this kind of treatment, they will say, "You just have to accept me the way I am. (God made me this way, so God loves me even if you are too stupid to understand how special I am.)"

Accepting them as they are (and staying away from them entirely) is excellent advice. The other "punishment" narcissists mete out is banishing you from their glorious presence this can turn into a farce, since by this point you are probably praying to be rescued, "Dear God! How do I get out of this?" The narcissist expects that you will be devastated by the withdrawal of her/his divine attention, so that after a while a few weeks or months (i.e., the next time the narcissist needs to use you for something) the narcissist will expect you to have learned your lesson and be eager to return to the fold. If you have learned your lesson, you won't answer that call. They can't see that they have a problem; it's always somebody else who has the problem and needs to change. Therapies work at all only when the individual wants to change and, though narcissists hate their real selves, they don't want to change they want the world to change. And they criticize, gripe, and complain about almost everything and almost everyone almost all the time. There are usually a favored few whom narcissists regard as absolutely above reproach, even for egregious misconduct or actual crime, and about whom they won't brook the slightest criticism. These are people the narcissists are terrified of, though they'll tell you that what they feel is love and respect; apparently they don't know the difference between fear and love. Narcissists just get worse and worse as they grow older; their parents and other authority figures that they've feared die off, and there's less and less outside influence to keep them in check.

CharCharGabor · 04/01/2009 10:15

God that is so true. My mum always says, 'You cannot judge me, only God can judge me.' Maybe I should just write it all down for myself and tell her I don't want to discuss it.

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thumbwitch · 04/01/2009 13:58

CharChar - here is an idea that I got during my NLP training - it is called "emptying the anger tank" and I found it very therapeutic! Although my mum wasn't fully NPD, she did have some of the traits and I got angrier and angrier with her over the years to the point I could barely be civil to her when I saw her. So when this came up in training, it was very useful!

What you do is you write down everything, in free flow, so no need for structure, sentences, grammar, just write it as it comes and feel as though the words and feelings are pouring out of your head, down your arm and onto the page . You then have a frank and open discussion of all the points that upset you, make you angry etc - but your ma is not actually in the room. THEN - you beat seven bells out of a usefully beatable object (we had a punchbag to use but I actually did mine at home with a large pillow) until you can't do it any more and you feel peaceful and VERY TIRED.

This works quite well! Plus avoids any confrontation that might just add to your frustration and negative feelings.

GoodGrrrl · 04/01/2009 14:42

I would walk away and not indulge her tbh, but that's probably not very helpful of me. I personally think it's just another way of her making you justify yourself and her, and in the nicest possible way, she sounds like an unpleasant person to have around.

CharCharGabor · 04/01/2009 17:13

Thanks for that thumbwitch, I think I'll do that. Once DD is in bed, natch GoodGrrrl, thanks as well. I think that's probably the best thing to do as well, it's a difficult decision to make though.

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