Following on from the 'is this normal behaviour' thread, can I ask you all about this

[callmemrs]

I read the 'is this normal behaviour' thread with interest because I have unanswered questions from my childhood, and I think I've spent many years wondering if my experience was 'normal'. I'm a regular but have namechanged, because I really genuinely want people's true feelings.

I was born early 60s, so the events I'm describing would have been late 60s/ early 70s. I have two siblings.

My family were very conventional - dad worked, management position, mum looked after us. Dad was very much the disciplinarian, and in fact, mum looked to dad for all major decisions etc. I grew up feeling that men worked and got to call the shots, and that women were meant to be subservient. But as I say, this was 60s - so probably many of my peers had a similar experience. My parents seemed generally quite happy with this arrangement - it seemed a happy and contented marriage. My dad wasn't really a hands on dad - mum played with us when we were small, mum did all the cooking, cleaning etc and dad earned the money. I suppose deep down I felt that my mum was in awe of my dad - it was certainly the kind of family were dad's word was obeyed. My mum would never feel she could make a decision on her own.

The thing that troubles me is that on occasions, if my siblings or I did anything considered really bad, my dad would cane us. I would say this happened about 4 times a year maybe. He kept the cane in the cupboard under the stairs, and whenever it was used it was definitely a calculated thing. It wasn't heat of the moment - we would be told that we would be caned (on our bare bottoms or sometimes hand - I think maybe hand was for a lesser misdemeanor) and how many strokes.

I grew up feeling resentful of this - but also confused because I genuinely do not know how unusual this would have been. I know when I first went to school the cane was still used, so clearly it was an 'acceptable' punishment in that sense. The type of thing the cane might be used for was always something deemed serious - intentionally really hurting one of our siblings, for instance. But I know on one occasion I was caned unfairly (my brother and I were playing on furniture in the sitting room, and my brother jumped on a coffee table which broke. I knew that it was my brother who had done it, but we'd both been in the room together and both got the blame).

Would this kind of punishment have been 'normal' ?

yes, I do believe this kind of punishment was common for that time

doesn't make it right, however, and thankfully the times have very much changed

it sounds like you grew up in a loving family to me, are you recently questionning your upbringing ? and why ?

My Dad was born in 1957 and was caned in the way you describe. He was also locked in a cupboard without food for several hours for more serious offences. I think there is probably more but he doesn't talk about it. He believed that it was normal. I think 'normal' is a difficult thing to define. Certainly back then I presume it was more 'acceptable' to use corporal punishment and perhaps 'normalised' by the school adopting the same punisment. Officially sanctioned I suppose.

I do know that my Dad has suffered his whole life because of it- and other factors, particularly a lack of affection/praise.

I spoke to my Grandmother's neighbour a couple of years ago. She would have been in her late 80s at least at the time so an even earlier generation. She said she saw the bruises and heard the cries and prayed to God to intervene. She certainly didn't think it normal.

I always felt I did grow up in a loving family anyfucker (great name!). I mean, I was never in doubt that my parents loved me. I don't really know why I'm questioning now, except that I was talking to DH recently about how guilty I feel that very very rarely our own children got a smack on the bum or leg when they were small (but this was a heat of the moment thing - eg if one child bit another). And I feel truly terrible because I actually believe that smacking is never the best way. And I think that got me reflecting on my own experiences.

I think I am a similar age to you callmemrs

had a similar upbringing

I too gave my children, when they were younger, an occasional smack

don't feel guilty, I don't

Thank you anyfucker. That means a lot to me. I'm sure we all carry baggage from our childhoods - and I really want to get some perspective on this.

I think this was normal for the time, as other posters say. However it is deeply pants as well.

Not unprecedented for that time but still very harsh, I'd have thought. Very sorry to hear this, callmemrs.

I was born 1963 and altho the boys at primary school [not girls] got the slipper I think it was very rare.In secondary school there was no physical punishments at all,I and my brothers were never treated this way at home either[would have been horrified].
It was actually quite a permissive time re parenting I think.
How awful for you I would have been livid and am so on your behalf!

Not caned but certainly smacked in a premeditated "You're going to be smacked" sort of way. And while my mother was an early Feminist and worked full-time, it was still a "Wait till your father gets home" thing. I was born in 66.

I did smack my older 2 in anger a couple of times, and have always regretted it - though they're young adults now and have no memories of it and certainly bear no grudges.

Putting aside the fact that I personally believe using any kind of cane/slipper/stick is outrageous whatever decade you were born in, could it be that you felt like it was just an inappropriate punishment for the things you did 'wrong'? i.e were you given this kind of treatment for things which you would consider quite minor?

Often, also, this kind of punishment takes place sometimes hours after the supposed wrong doing and so is IMO very different to a smack given in the moment when the child is doing wrong.

Perhaps that effected you?

yes, pants, definately

but think of it like this

with each generation, the "level" of physical and/or mental punishment that is acceptable in normal society is diminishing

that is the nature of being human is it not?

things do not change overnight, but in the scheme of things, this is quite a large leap

caning is not acceptable in todays society, but only 40 yrs ago, I don't think it was so uncommon

Everybody feels guilty about the way they parent. It's in the contract I think but you do things the way you feel you should at the time and with the best of intentions. You sound like a lovely and thoughtful lady. And probably a lovely and thoughtful mother.

Cripes my Dad apologised to me over Christmas for shouting at me about something when I was 7. He said he knew immediately that he'd handled it badly and he never forgave himself for it. I barely remember it.

nice post snow

callmemrs, are you having a little cry yet ?

hassled - I totally agree about the 'wait til your father gets home' thing. I think that's what I find hardest to deal with - that on occasions something bad would happen when it was just mum at home and she would literally tell us that we would have to wait for my dad to get in to have our punishment. And sometimes even then we'd have to wait for him to have his tea etc. So the punishment was more about the waiting and being scared as much as the physical pain. And it taught me to believe that women are subservient to men which I think has been really unhelpful.

That sounds really horrible. I think the coldness of making you wait is awful.

Always remember I was 14, 1988 and my father chasing me up the stairs with my studded leather belt in his hand.

He caught me on the thigh with it. Hurt like hell and bruising stayed for 2 weeks. A week after that incident, I can remember my father taking me down the council offices and asking them to 'take me away'

And my offence? Got into the wrong crowd at school and dad caught me smoking!!!

Impatience was somehow acceptable then, yet it is this very generation that is so quick to criticise our childrearing practices. My older relatives don't criticise me, just this generation. The 'babyboomers'.

My mum grew up in the 60's and was caned and hit with a belt regularly by my grandfather. I don't think it was normal though. I know she had teachers tell her much later that they were very concerned about the family i just don't think there was much they could do at he time.It has affected her deeply, my grandmother has no memory of it all though it was her that would tell on the children and have my grandfather dish out the punishment. I find it very hard to understand how my mum has remained close to her father despite this.

I was born in 1965 and at high school they still used the cane.

My parents used to smack my brother and I (he is a couple of years younger than me),quite often though Mum would say your father will deal with you when he gets home which I think the waiting for that was far worse than the actual smacking.

My brother and I were both hit on our backsides with a slipper by Dad (cannot for the life of me remember the crime now, think I must have been about 12 at the time) but I do remember it hurting for bloody ages and trying to have a look in the mirror at the mark it had left.

My mum also used to pull my brothers hair - out of frustration with him more than anything else - if he knew she was mad with him he would dodge her and the hair was the only thing she could get hold of.

Funny thing is now though, she admits that smacking/hair pulling was not the right course of action to take.

Thank you to everyone who's replied.

It does help to feel that this type of punishment was seen as more 'acceptable' in those days. Not that it makes it ok, but it helps me to see that my father was probably just doing what had been done to him, and what he genuinely believed was good parenting. It does seem very harsh though, and has probably been a big factor in making me so totally anti corporal punishment.

It's possible you feel uneasy about it because at the time (and I am about the same age as you) corporal punishment was rather on the way out and percieved as a bit old fashioned so some of your peers' parents would have used it and some would have been horrified at the thought - so you would have picked up the feeling that it wasn't 100% usual to be punished in this way. Were your parents slightly older than your schoolfriends' parents by any chance?

yes parenting was becomingmore progressive in north england where I was [with scottish parents]
On the estate where we lived I never saw or heard of friends being smacked and I was forever in their houses.

With regards to the 'wait till your father gets home' line, I often think about how difficult it must have been for fathers. The encouragement fathers get nowadays to be hands-on and involved was not common back then. Fathers weren't at the birth, they didn't nurture or do skin to skin (I presume many did but it wasn't public knowledge), they had no time off work and for them parenting was about taking cues from the sahm. So, when he walked through the door and was asked to deal with unruly children then he had to be seen to act and in the distant fashion that has informed most of his parenting so far. It's not that simplistic I know but there was little encouragement to do it any other way for many years.

I know now that when dh walks in from work he's desperate to spend time with dd and enjoy her. I can't think of anything worse than expecting him to somehow be painted as a figure of dread.

I think looking back at how it was when you were a child can be very helpful in making you the parent you are now.