Would it "work" if I could just change my expectations?

[greenfairy]

I'm a regular, but namechanged for this one:
DH and I have been together for 10 years. DS is 1. DH is kind and a good father. The problem is that he is constantly working, but not getting anything accomplished. I am the breadwinner and do all the work in/on the house and all the work related to DS. DH was recently made redundant, so is currently busy job writing job applications (that's great - it's just that he constantly has to do something and is never accomplishing anything, so it's an old, old pattern).

I am so so tired of him doing nothing, that I am thinking of splitting up. Thing is - it wouldn't be much less work if I would be a single mother, it's just that the constant frustsation about his behaviour end. Have tried to talk about it & counselling to no avail. I have pretty much given up on anything changing. I also tried getting him interested in workholoics anonymous.

My question is: if I would only manage to accept that I just do everything, then maybe it would work out and DS would grew up with his father and mother. Is is possible to change one's expectations to expect "nothing" and if so, how would you do this?
Okay, I ave tried, but failed.

Thanks and a happy Christmas to everybody

It is possible apparently - I refer you to this thread from a few weeks back. It could work for you.

Have you tried to tell your DH that if he doesn't pull his finger out and get moving, he will be moving out? it might stir him into action. Then again...

for you - hope it works out.

Thanks Elf. Interesting thread your are linking to. I think it's the right association in that he probably doesn't feel respected etc
which this thread is addressing. Well, I have to admit, that I am not respecting him any longer in the sense that he never gets anything done and so I don't expect anything any more. If this makes sense.

Yes, I have said that I can't go on like this and that I will leave if things don't change. He said he wouldn't allow it and that DS needs us both, but hasn't changed anything IYSWIM.

I am pretty independent (well, have to be) and am not afraid of being on my own.

Yes it's possible to program yourself to expect nothing.

But then your DS will also expect nothing, because we learn what to expect from relationships, from our parents.

Are you sure that deep down, you didn't expect nothing to begin with? And that's why you were attracted to your DH? I don't mean want nothing, wanting is not the same as expecting.

Hi LittleJingleBellas,
do you speak from experience? Good question, I have to say. I think I did have expectations to begin with and have never given up on them. However, my father did when I was very young, so my mother was a single mum.

Yes I do speak from experience.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. I realise now that in my 20's, I expected very little from men. Long and complex story, but I had seen my mother work like a dog for years while my father got drunk and was abusive and violent. (So was she btw, not drunk, but abusive and violent. But at least she got stuff done.) Basically the whole burden of running the home and family fell on her. When I met an inadequate, helpless, ineffective, passive man, he felt instantly familiar to me. I got what I expected. I didn't want that, but the subconscious is much more powerful than the conscious, isn't it?

Thanks for sharing LittleJingleBellas. I have heard about the theory that we subconsciously look for a husband, that behaves like our father. I have never really thought about what that means in my case (an "absent" husband? - well, that would fit!). So, what's your resolution? - Did you lower/change your expectations or did you decide you have to be in a relationship that matches what you want?
(Please answer only if you feel like it.)

it's possible, but it depends on what you define as 'nothing'.

my DH, he's not ever going to be the type to go out and make a lot of money. he's got learning difficulties, so pretty much everything that has to do with forms and paperwork and organisational processes is mine to do.

BUT, and here's a big but!, he's a brilliant father. he's calm, he's involved, he plays and plays with the kids. he does a lot with them.

he also does a lot of housework.

in addition, he's kind, he's generous, he's easy-going, he's laid-back, he's completely understanding and respectful and supportive of me and of our kids.

he works a lot of hours because we need to make ends meet.

he works in tourism so he has anti-social hours - although only daytime just now.

so maybe to folks who are all about 'success' in the material sense, he does 'nothing'.

but to me, he's everything.

to his girls, he's just that as well.

see, thing is, life is a trade off.

so you need to evaluate. is he really doing 'nothing'? or is it just 'nothing in terms of what the society around you sees, and then decide what is most important, both to you and your kids.

because i'm not young anymore. i'm not old, either, nearly 38. but i've been around enough to know which one best suits both my needs and the needs of three little children.

and where my loyalties lie.

yours may be different, but that's for you to decide.

at any rate, you'll never have any peace until you do look at the big picture. now that kids are in the equation, that means from their perspective to.

peace.

Expat and Evjustaboutbelievesinsanta -
thanks for you messages. Expat it sounds like you get in your relationship what you need and that your DH and you have a fulfilling relationship. Although I was not specific in my OP, I am not in the same spot. It sounds that your Dh and you have found a good way to split tasks given his and your strength and weaknesses, which is also not the case for us. I am glad you are in a happy relationship.

Well in the end it's a lot about expectations isn't it? I get up in the mornings with DS
(DH often works through the night on his computer, so sleeps in), make DSs food for the day, bring DS to nursery, go work, pick DS up after nursery, go shopping, make dinner, clean the house, bring DS to bed, then work until midnight on the PC (I leave early in the afternoon, so have to make up). I do all the shopping for DS clothes, look after the car, do all the "fixing" in the house, or employ somebody to do it. DH plays with DS and looks after him once in a while so I can get a break, all weekend he is on his computer, while we are around, we never go out as a family (that's really bothering me), but I can go out with DS whenever I want, DH doesn't expect me to stay home while is at his computer. Before DS I would go out with my friends (mostly extreme sports) or work myself, but those are not possible any more. I have fund other things to do with DS though, so that's not the problem at all.

I try to make specific requests. E.g. could go shop for a, b and c. which kind of works.
I doesn't work if I ask for something more general, e.g. could you do the shopping for tonight. I am so tired and honestly, I am faster doing the shopping myself than writing everything down. I think that's my part in the problem: I am not good at organising, and tend to do stuff that needs doing rather than asking for help. I find the asking for help at the correct time, with the correct words and the correct list in my hands exahausting, so tend not to do it.

Difficult to answer really. I don't think I lowered my expectations as such, I think they were already v. low. It's v. difficult to explain really clearly what happened without hijacking the thread and boring on for hours (and I'm not sure I even now know for certain all the ins and outs of the dynamics) but basically I think I just realised how unacceptable his behaviour was and that it couldn't go on as I would always be unhappy and therefore teach my children unhappiness. Also that he was not able to change (though I think he would have liked to in theory, he was not willing to put in the work and pain that change would have involved in practice. It would have involved him seeking therapy about his childhood, his depression etc. and he was not willing to face up to the fact that he needed to deal with that). Also if truth be told, that even if he had been willing to put in the work, by that stage I would have encouraged him to do that for his own sake (and therefore for our children's sake), not for the sake of our relationship as I felt that was irretrievable by then. I had realised that it was based on a shared dysfunctional need, rather than love and I wasn't sure that if we hadn't both been mad when we met, we would have had anthing to do with each other. I felt by then that there was a huge vacuum at the heart of it, rather than something solid and worthwhile.
So none of this may apply to you or be remotely relevant or helpful!!!

Can you be more specific about what you wish your dh would accomplish?

Exactly what are your current expectations of him?

Sounds as if you are extremely capable/productive. Maybe he isn't quite sure how he can 'fit' in/contribute to family life so occupies himself with busywork.

Also - and this isn't meant to be critical of you - extremely capable people often have high standards, and are quick to judge others whose standards aren't as high. Is it possible he has tried to contribute more in the past, but has been critisised so has simply given up? (I hear men moan about this - "I can't do anything well enough to suit her, so I've stopped trying").

I learned this with my sister. She came over to help me just after dd was born. She sat down with instructions to put something together (babyswing perhaps?). I'm good at putting things together, and was about to jump out of my skin watching her struggle because it wasn't how I would have done it and I knew I could have done it better/faster. But I bit my tongue because she was trying. I'm glad I did. To complain would have upset both of us. And, she got it done eventually - and I let her know how grateful I was.

I may be way off the mark, but does any of what I've said ring true?

Thanks for your messages. They are REALLY helping m o get anoter perspective.

revjustaboutbelievesinsanta - yes, you are right - what is really bothering me is that we don't have quality time as a family. Our problem seems to be that I constantly wants to spend MORE time with my husband and do "all the work" so that he can make time for this but then it just isn't happening. Also, we have a very different understanding of quality/family time. I like to go somewhere with all of us (park/zoo/swimming pool), whereas he is happiest when he is working on his computer or reading while we are around. I do interpret this as him not loving me/us, which is probably the wrong interpretation.

He is really "working" on is computer, not surfing, but I think/know he is doing a lot of things like writing letters to editors about issues and otherwise politically active. I love his activism, but not at the cost of our relationship. What's that saying - people divorce for the same reasons they fell in love with each other.

You are also right in that he is probably more shocked by being layed off, that he admits. I told him, if would be so much easier for me to share his frustration, than having to deal with somebody who doesn't speak about it. His reply was that he has also feelings, but he didn't share them with me.

Earlybird, I think you are right on with all your comments/questions. For example, he has a deadline and works pretty much 24h days before the deadline. (He sleeps some, but that's really it). But then when the deadline comes, he hands something in, but "he didn't have the time to do what he really wanted to". I think he starts too late, so that he can blame the missing time for not meeting is own expectations. He used to sleep in front of his computer in his office before deadlines - the problem is: before each single one of them.

I think you are also right about your comments on me. I am trying to "free him up", so that he can have some family time, but in doing so, I might be intimidating. Also, I don't do so willingly, so complain about it, to which his answer is: don't do it if you regret it later. I have changed this behaviour and left things to him, but especially with a child it's difficult not to do the dishes for 10 days (when he will do them) or not fix the car when it needs new tires (we have a 1.5 commute every way, which doesn't help - we live where DH wants to live. He commutes by bus 2h every way while I decided to start taking the car for the babies sake.) Now thinking about it, I try to give DH lots of freedom and encourage him to spend time with DS and have him do things "his" way (e.g. dress him or change diapers). As I said when he spends time with DS he is a great father, but it's not enough and completely unreliable when, so it's hard to build a routine around it.

We had a big fight yesterday (I think my posting was in hindsight a sign, that I just can't take it any more) and I think we have to separate, at least for a while. I just can't breathe any more here and I do not want my son to see his parents avoiding each other or fighting. I deserve some happiness (or at least not unhappiness) and can't go on like this.

Again, thanks for listening.

LittleJingleBellas - your posts help me very much. I am sorry you had to make such a difficult decision. Everything you say helps very much. While I may "arrange" myself, I do not want my son to learn to "arrange himself". While happiness is maybe more than we can ask for, at least we can avoid being unhappy in a dysfunctional relationship. I think my son would is much happier spending time with me or DH than with us fighting or, more often, DS and me hushing around DH as not to disturb him, "waiting" for him to finish and "hoping", we'll have some family time afterwards.

It seems a little odd, to separate because I want to spend more time as a family but it seems the right thing to do and unavoidable right now. I have tried so much and nothing happened. I just cant continue to live like this.

LittleJingleBellas - I would be very interested in more details of yur story but only if you wish to share.

Rev - I think I will be looking for a small flast close to work and nursery right after the holidays. Can't do anything right now and just try to make it through the holidays. I think I will try to go out a lot: walking/park/pool/ anything really, that puts some space between us and enjoyable for DS.

Sorry my spelling is abysemal. I guess it's a sign of how upset I am.

Thanks for these excellent questions you are asking.

1. Have you tried relationship counselling? Or do you genuinely feel there is nothing left to save?

Yes, we have. Once 6 years ago which obviously worked and ten again a few months ago which hasn't. The issues are the same. Right now I feel there is nothing left to save, but I think that's part of the anger you built up when you are ready to separate.

2. Do you have, or do you think you could again have in the future, some kind of enjoyable sex life? Is your relationship healthy in some ways, e.g. do you genuinely enjoy spending time together when it happens, or are you always snapping at each others' heels?
   Sex life is pretty good, just a bit rare right now. But when I initiate it, he usually finds time. Yes, when we are taking some time off, it really is nice. It's just that I would like to have say, 1/2 day every weekend, but he only finds time every few months.

3. Do you think he really cares for you and doesn't know how to show it, or do you think he is actually quite wrapped up in himself, incapable of seeing the bigger picture and fundamentally quite selfish?
   The former. He cares, but I really thinks his "working" pattern is obsessive/pathological. He does not agree or see this. Nor is he willing to look into this. He is actually very smart. He must be frustrated by not accomplishing what's he is capable of.

4. When you look at the future, in an ideal world would you like him to be in it? (obvious question I know)
   I don't know. I just don't want to be unhappy and if, I'd rather be alone unhappy
   than in a marriage. I guess, I want him in it, if he CHANGES but not as he is behaving now. And since I do not think he will change nor seriously try to change, I have to take the consequences.

greenfairy I'm willing to share anything you think might be useful - just ask!

i think the answer to 'Is is possible to change one's expectations to expect "nothing"'is yes it is. and you might achieve this and go on relatively happily for several, if not many, years...if not for ever.

alternatively, you might decide in another decade or two, when dcs have left home and the two of you are alone, that you have wasted ten or twenty or thirty years of what will by then feel like a very short life...or you might feel that it was time well spent and decide to move on and start a new life then... or you might, by then, be happy with dh.

or...you may spend the next few years expecting - and receiving - nothing, and then accidently come across someone who offers you everything, and you might then wish you were single...

so you need to think very carefully about the future as well as the here and now.

also about how things will naturally evolve for you over the next few years, because your story doesn't sound like that of a woman who can no longer bare to be around her dh, and who really dislikes him - it sounds more like the balance is all wrong and that is what is making you unhappy. in which case it's probably worth persisting with?

sorry this isn't useful advice...i guess it's just me thinking around some of the corners...

I can't believe how much wise and thoughtful advice I am getting here! I think it's coming from woman who know a lot!

Rev - I can't believe how much you hit the point with everything. Yes - he's a kind person, an idealist who is a bit removed from life.

Have to run - will be back later!

Something Fourkidsmum said reminded me of something. It was sitting there having a conversation with xp which I had already had about 5 times before, over the course of 2years and having a vision of myself in 10 years time having the same conversation, only this time older, more bitter, more angry.

Another question to ask yourself and possibly your DH: Do you think he is truly capable of change? Or if not, that you can reconcile yourself to what he is like? Will accepting what he is like simply be denial and underlying unhappiness (which will impact on your children and also you deserve better), or will it be a true acceptance and serenity?