Abstract question about abusive relationships (sorry, but long)

[OptimistS]

As a survivor of domestic abuse, this is a subject close to my heart. Most of us are familiar with the statistic that says 1 in 4 women will experience it (and men too, as research is now demonstrating). What's even more alarming is that the 1/4 figure is based on official reportings of abuse, so the real figure is much, much higher, possibly as much as 1 in 2 - ALMOST HALF the population!!!

I don't want to get off topic here, but I think cases like Baby P and Shannon Matthews are the potential end result when you have generation after generation growing up with abuse dynamics going on in the family. Ideas about respect and individual rights, and most importantly the notion of empathy for another, get seriously skewed. There is a very strong link between child abuse and domestic violence. Just as there are links with juvenile crime. In my opinion, a lot of society's ills are the result of abuse rather than the increase in single parents or the lessening power of religion, etc etc. (Actually, if you want to be somewhat flippant, you could make a convincing argument that the world would be a lot better off if all victims of abuse left their partners, taking their kids, and we had a lot more single parents.)

What scares me most is that it is a disease that spreads among the 'healthy' population. It's not limited to the s0-called 'underclass'. I grew up in a very close, very happy and stable family. I remember my parents having 2 arguments from my first memories until the time I left home. There was a lot of love and respect there. Same with my grandparents. If anyone should have been resistant to abuse, it was me. The trouble was that because abuse was so alien to my family, I was never aware of how it worked. By the time I was, it was too late. My point is this: if it can happen to me, someone who society would generally regard as low risk, it can happen to anyone.

So what can we do about it? I am not a journalist or student. This is just a subject close to my heart. I am thinking about starting a campaign, but this is still just a thought. Womens Aid and the like tend to concentrate on picking up the pieces. We certainly do need more refuges and more education, etc. However, I'd like to see more prevention done, if that's possible. It may not be.

I am generally against a nanny state, but I am now seriously wondering if the national curriculum should scrap some of the more abstract subject areas and really start concentrating on healthy life development. Things like parenting, signs of healthy and unhealthy relationships, personal and social responsibility etc. These have traditionally been the remit of the parent, but I am beginning to think that perhaps those most in need of this sort of education are exactly those who won't get this at home. What do others think? Do you think this would work? Do you have any other suggestions?

I am really interested in what people think. So tell me...

Interested too (not from personal experience), but am off to bed now so will be back in the morning

what an interesting post.

I totally agree - I grew up in a healthy, loving, stable family (though they did have arguments) and I guess I would also have been one of those predicted to be 'safe' from abuse. But as you said, I never understood how it worked.

Now I am free of an emotionally abusive relationship, I wonder how to educate dc to spot it. It was something that crept into the relationship - it wasnt there from the start. How can you spot the warning signs? What can be done about it (except just leave - is that the only option?)?

Agree wholeheartedly about education, though I know that the school day has already been squeezed so much it would be hard to fit anything else in. And of course, it isnt measurable with tests and so wont go towards any league tables...

Will watch this thread with interest.

LeQueen, very interesting and valid perspective. I suppose my perspective is that a fiery temper becomes abusive when the person on the receiving end becomes fearful and alters their behaviour as a result. It sounds like you and Mr. Lequeen are secure enough to express yourselves in this way without the other losing an essential part of themselves in order to keep the peace. That's actually quite healthy. It's important to realise that all of us are capable of behaving abusively from time to time without actually being an abuser.

All people and relationships are different. I think the biggest thing that separates your relationship from an abusive relationship is a) the absence of fear and b) the fact that in abusive relationships there is a persistent, cumulative use of criticsm.put downs/violence. You and MrQueen seem to use this in certain arguments, rather than as a pattern.

Is that an accurate surmise? This is important, I think. If you disagree with me, then I'd be interested to know why, as I think it will improve the debate overall.

interesting post - I don't think any ones' background can protect thenm from Dv but it does give people the tools to escape in that you know it is wrong soem people seem to think it is ok. Lequeen I don't mean the example you give as it sounds your relationship is solid and it only has occasional blips which all healthy relationships do but those were the abuse is prolonged and occurs with regularity,
Perhaps school pshe should consider emotions and good / bad relationship sas even friendships can be abusive or not beneficial to both parties

Thanks for replies so far. They are really good and advancing my thoughts on this.

Gothicmama, I think you hit the nail on the head for me with the comment "I don't think any ones' background can protect them from Dv but it does give people the tools to escape in that you know it is wrong". I didn't see it coming, but when I finally did see it, it was my own childhood that made me see it wasn't 'normal' and surely I didn't have to settle for it. I think I would probably still be there if I had seen the same thing happening between my parents.

I simply have to go to bed now but will check back in the morning. PLEASE keep posting.

I've been through emotional abuse, and DD1 is old enough to remember it.
I hold on that, and keep telling her that no man should treat her like shit like that.

But she should be making her own choices in life. The one time that a boy ever makes her feel scared is the time to fuck off out of there.

LeQueen, I dont think this kind of behaviour is displayed while arguing all the time. IMVHO a lot of the subjugation (in front of my kids) was done discreetly and in front of them. Although I agree when saying that when an argument hit the roof, it happened.
You can feel strongly though, and the man will rip you down...always. And the more I felt strongly, the more he spoke up and abused me. So no, it's not always good to speak up for yourself.

But 6 years on as a single woman, oh yes, I feel very strongly over a certain few issues these days. My DD1 still feels the same way.

I came from a very loving secure, stable Family (think typical TV 60's family) but I went on to marry a physically abusive man, who repeatedly put me in hospital, from there I went onto marry a emotionally abusive husband. finally marrying DH who is a replica of my Dad.

Eldest Brother is on his third marriage, his first was like my second and his second was like my first, luckily the third is happy.

Our children tho have married partners like our parents, so maybe we did manage to educate them what was 'normal' behaviour in a relationship.

Optimist, this is a very interesting thread, and I have similar thoughts sometimes.

here's my experience: came from a family where parents argued as rarely as yours. Not violent. However, I married a violent, controlling man, and the roots of this were in my childhood, I think.
My mother is also very controlling, albeit in a non-violent way. You arent "allowed" to have different opinions from her, if you do, then she says you "have no common sense" or stuff like that. I believe that she was also jealous of me, because I was more successful than she had been at school. I know that my sister is very very jealous of me, and was poisonous for all our childhoods. She thought - quite wrongly - that I was the favourite. My father rarely spoke. I had very little self-esteem as I grew up (I am very different from my mother!), and was a sitting duck for abusive ex h, who picks on women younger than him, and typically with problems that he can "solve" so that the woman has to be grateful to him for the rest of her life.

so there you are - perfectly normal family on the outside, messed up on the inside!

How to stop children making the same mistakes? well we talk openly about things, and I encourage them to think about life and relationships. If I had read the mn relationships board, I prob wouldnt have married ex h!

i came from a background of emotional abuse from my father to my mum and from him to me. I went on to marry a man who was physically abusive, i also hit him though. i then was with a man who was neither physically or emotionally abusive but left him to be with my current husband (currently separated from him) who is can also be verbaly and physically abusive. Again i have been abusive to him too in the past.

In many ways current h is very kind but his temper is like nothing i've ever experienced - worse than mine and my father's. He is so blinded by anger he can't even remember what hes said/done sometimes and i have been scared of him. I'm still missing the nice things about him though and can't believe that i'm wondering whether to go back to him. I'm staying with xp atm and things are develooing with us too and i know i can 100% trust him never ro be abusive in anyway. But he's not my dh

I've just come back to this post, so thanks to everyone who's replied. I think people's experiences demonstrate that abuse is not an automatic sentence. It does not follow that everyone who grows up in an abusive household is destined to become either an abuser or a victim, although many sadly will. The fact that people can break the cycle shows that abuse is a social problem that can be dealt with, in my opinion. That's encouraging.

I think one of the reasons I'd like to see a course taught in schools is because that it when people will be most receptive. By the time we have reached adulthood and have fixzed ways of viewing the world, it will be too late for some (though certainly not all). I think role playing, is the way to go. From my reading on this subject, one of the many things characterising abusers is their sense of entitlement and lack of empathy. Role playing can go some way to making children realise that a certain sense of entitlement can result in other people's rights and feelings being trampled over as a consequence, and hoepuflly each them that it's not a nice feeling to experience. It's the sense of entitlement that also makes me feel that domestic abuse should be taught in a wider academic setting, that covers personal and social responsibility. With rights come responsibility etc. What we need is a good balance between the two.

What sorts of ideas do others have?

Thanks again for replying.

The Pattern Changing Course run by Women's Aid might be a good starter point for some kind of school course. On the other hand, it is powerful in part sinply because it brings together women who have been abused and we are from all walks of life and all ages - it opens your eyes to the varying nature of abuse and gives us all a sense of survivorhood and cameraderie.

However, the essentials of Pattern Changing are so very very important. They re simple but can be life-changing. The Bill of Rights for example and the ordinary-sounding but crucial bottom line that 'You Matter' - your feelings count, you deserve respect, you have to learn how to create boundaries etc. The Bill of Rights contains things like 'you have the right to be human not perfect, to make mistakes, to love and be loved, to feel safe, to earn and control yur own money, to not be responsible for other adults' problems, to privacy, to protest and be angry when someone behaves abusively towards you, to change your life if you are not hapy with it'.

When I first read them I could only, in my mind, apply them to my abusive (I now realise) exH, not to myself. My sense of self and self-love and respect was THAT skewed. But it was pointed out to me that 'he had the right to all those things yes, as we all do, but not to get them AT YOUR EXPENSE AND BY VIOLATING YOUR RIGHTS'.

Incredibly it took me a while to understand this: yes, if he wanted to change his life - leave his marriage or go away for a few days alone because he was un happy - then sure, he could do these things. But NOT by stealing our money, abandoning his children, trashing his wife's mental health, having sex with prostitues,lying pathologically about his exploits and about me, etc etc.

I don't know if this is any use to this debate. All I am saying is, I came from a twisted dysfunctional and emotionally abusive family so yes I was a classic for going for abusive men...and I have done. But if I had learned much earlier in life perhaps, that my emotions are valid BECAUSE IF FEEL THEM' and the rest of the above, it woud have been more valuable to be than Latin!

Mind you, I would still have had to go home to my shit family and after a day spent learning that I Mattered it might have been hard to find that at home I Didn't Matter iyswim.
Ugh. Wish I wasn't learning all this so late in life!

also close to my heart as well as another suvivor.

I think the point that lequeen makes is key really. Typically in abusive relationships you have one dominant and one submissive, and it would be benificial if we could give all youngsters the tools to cope and get out of such situations and to know it's not the norm.

In my case XH grew up with a v controlling mother, who was manipulative and alcoholic to boot, his step dad was much the same and his real dad he had nothing to do with. XH thought it was 'normal' to treat people like this. for 8 years I worked on things, we did get better for a while but as soon as we were married it got 1000 X's worse than before.

I on the other hand grew up in a 'perfect' childhood - as XH used to throw back at me, my parents were still (are still) together, the house is very open, we're very close, we have a clear sence of right and wrong, but I was also raised that marriage is hard and you don't give up, so I stayed, and let it go on, albe it not knowing mostly. When XH left & I went home, dad basically said 'if he wants to work it out you should go back and try' then I told him the things XH had been doing, he shortly after said 'I don't want you going back there' followed by you do realise that's domestic abuse. When I said yes but mum and you have some real fights, he said yes, but mum gives back as good as she gets, (ie mum can stand her ground, althou they have the usual ups and downs like everyone else nothing violent etc).

Part of the thing for me was I was too ashamed to admit what was going on, and also XH was very subtle to begin with. It's not a case that I didn't have anyone to talk to - I could have spoken to my parents about it a long time before I did (4 years to be exact when he first pushed me in the kitchen) but instead I stayed hoping it would all go back to how it was to start with.

Domestic abuse & indeed child abuse needs to be brought out more into the open, it's not something to feel ashamed of, and we're not victims either, we're not weak people, they are - and we're stronger than they'll ever be - in my case XH just about broke me, but with the help of a loving and supportive family (and happy pills! lol) i'm slowly getting over it all - even thou I do still have wobbles. Another key thing would be to know that these men can't get away with it, they should be punished by what ever means, or educated that it's wrong.

build awareness that it could be anyone and it's not taboo and it might help??

Yes, it is common failing of happy families to bring their children up to know how to function only with kind people. Happy families need also to teach their children that not everyone is kind - self-defence skills should be for everyone.

My sister is (or at least was) an idependent working woman, outgoing, confident and bubbly too. She had been a single parent managing alone for many years until she met her current partner. Throughout her life she has had many relationships in which she most definitely "wore the trousers".

She had never been exposed to any form of domestic abuse in her childhood (our parents split when she was about 10 but she was always surrounded by love and care).

The man she is with now has issues of jealously and mistrust and is controlling and manipulative. She was forced to give up her job to placate him because the thought of what she might be doing whilst out of his sight drove him crazy. She is now confined to the house (with him, he doesn't go to work) and now only allowed to go out of the house if accompanied by him.

She has cut all ties with family and hasn't spoken to anyone for over a year. Her children's contact with their natural father and everyone else in their blood family has even been stopped due to pressure from him.

I never stop asking myself each and every day - what drives a hitherto intelligent, sane, rational and reasonable woman to allow a man to do this to her?

Everyone who knows her and this man can see straight off that he is a textbook master manipulator and general crank. Yet she thinks his attention towards her is flattering because it shows how much he loves her! He's even driving her to do things to the detriment of her children in stopping their contact with family members, which they are entitled to.

If anyone can give me an insight into how this works I'd really love to hear it.

Please remember that that 1 in 4 figure included leaving your child alone in the house for over 10 mins (or half an hour - can't remember exactly) and saying something hurtful to a child; nor did it take into account whether any of the types of abuse were happening regularly or just one offs, so it may not really be as frightening a social disease as it appears from the headlines.

OptimistS - were you in that situation long? I always think if someone abused me physically I would get out of it and I assume you thought that too given your stable and healthy upbringing, so if you remained in that situation what was it that made you stay?

our relationsship has been abusive at times and long story short - its a daily fight on both our parts to keep our marriage a loving and happy one - we work at it.

that said, i abhor the idea of this being taught in schools. if money should be put anywhere it is into parenting classes - don't roll you eyes at my banging on about this once again - i read that the govt are introducing ( off the back off the baby p thing) social services and other organisations into schools - 10 boroughs - thats all and its goig to cost millions for this pilot.

i want to shout PARENTING CLASSES. most have said here ont his thread that they have taught their children not to accept a situation that they are in - and a healthy relationship is paramount when it comes to parenting and this should be something discussed if such classes were to be introduced.

i cant tell you how fucking utterly sick i am of my children learning - by proxy - stuff the govt think that we as parents should teach then - but its easier to do this through schools.

leave the education system alone - leave it to educate - the best chance any child is going to get from a poor background os good education - and this isn't happening at the moment with stabbings and beatings with hammers. some schools cant even teach reading and writing to ALL - nevermind sex education, phse, citizanship (barf) religeon and cultural acceptance. i mean purleaaaaaaaase.

if you truly and totally want to make a CULTURAL CHANGE int his country you have to start with the adults.

i mean we either accept that no matter how much time they are at school - that the parental influence it the highest influence - or we don't.

i think it is - i think the power of parents - good or bad is THE single greatest influence indicator in a childs life.

you can teach the kids healthy eating at school - but when they come home if what they get is "chips and like it " it makes no mind.

sure the better educated and well off and well meaning parents will try and change a little but i truly think that sometimes mumsnet has rose tinted glasses - there is a world out there where children knofe each other for dinner money.

change the culture - change the parent

what custy said
i agree, parenting is the most important thing
sorry typing while baby is sleep-nursing
but children act on what they see
and whom do they see the most - ideally the parents
not all of whom have good parenting skills
i think some people have them instinctively, and some must be taught

Jux: I didn't know that. Not sure about the 'one off' thing as I do believe, apart from rare circumstances, that once that particular line has been crossed it sets a precedent. I am also shocked at the number of people I know in daily life who are experiencing abuse. Sure, they're in the minority, but it's still an awful lot. It's comforting to think that maybe the problems isn't as widespread as I think, though, so thanks.

Beanieb, I am ashamed to admit that I stayed with my abusive (x)p for 6 years, and if I hadn't had children, I might well still be there. What a lot of people fail to realise unless they've lived through abuse is that when the abusive partner is not being abusive he is often charming and seemingly supportive. He also has the ability to make you feel that, when things go wrong, it is somehow your fault. If they were idiots all the time, it would be a lot easier for many people to leave, but it's never that simple. For me, the turning point was having children. I suddenly witnessed things from their perspective and realised that I would be teaching them all sort of skewed values if I didn't leave.

Custardo, I totally agree with you about parenting classes. At what point are they introduced to those who need them though? Experience has told me that they are often in the situation of preaching to the converted, with the exception of parents made to attend by SS. What about all those who slip through the net? Are you talking about making parenting classes as widely accepted as say ante-natal classes or something? I'm really interested to know how you'd go about implementing this.

I can't say I like the idea of schools teaching children what parents should be teaching, but I can't help feeling that we need intervention for those children whose families won't teach them. The sort of debate I want to get into is how far can that go? How much is down to opinion, choice and differing personalities/relationships and how much can we say "xxx is wrong, xxx is right" with the same certainty that we can say, for example, child abuse is wrong? What sort of teaching gets the message across but won't be offensive to many who feel that their children don't need this sort of teaching?

I think education is about much more than academic subjects. Surely education encompasses life and relationships as well as maths and english?

While I agree that parents are the most overwhelming influence on their children, research has demonstrated that once a child starts school their behaviour is influenced by much more than their parents, with the parents becoming less influential as the child grows older. I think that explains why you hear so many cases of children with loving family backgrounds going "off the rails" and (though rarer) children who escape a terrible background and make good.

I'm feeling all thought-provoked now, so thanks Custardo.

fantastic post custy. parenting classes and classes to run a household would be good I think tbh for a lot of young people.

I was lucky to have mum/nan who taught me to cook, clean, balance the house hold budget etc etc but not everyone has access to that so it should be brought back.

Interesting. I have yet to meet anyone who couldn't find evidence of some sort of 'dysfunction' in their family background - we all fuck up from time to time. Why? Because we're human.

That said, social education - what we learn from each other and those around us - is a far greater force than formal education (and faith in formal education is misguided I think - to put your faith in 'education' is to sub-contract your parenting to a system that is essentially set up to produce sheep - nice compliant employees).

Also, there's a lot evidence to suggest that what's learned pre-verbally (in the first two years) by way of behaviour patterns has a profound influence - eg a child that learns to be good, compliant and charming to get attention will use this same basic pattern as an adult - a child that learns that shouting and screaming is what gets them attention, will use this same basic pattern as an adult.

This is all a bit random, but comes from direct experience not of living with 'an abuser' but of living in 'an abusive relationship' and a lot of subsequent thought and self-education about how that happened, including my own part in it, and the consequences thereof. Without a doubt I tolerated behaviour that was unhealthy and unacceptable, having learned to be a 'nice' and 'caring' person but with very little sense of self - my upbringing, relatively stable, was organised around being much more concerned about 'other people' than developing a healthy sense of who I am/was first and foremost. My parents acted with the best of intentions, but I learned some very stupid stuff along the way - not bad, just stupid.

Gunnerbean - your sister's relationship sounds very like my ex and me. I can't CAT you, but will happily talk to you about it if you want to CAT me, or change your CAT setting.
Or search the relationship part of MN, a fair few of us have escaped from this sort of relationship, and there are a few threads, iirc.

"At what point are they introduced to those who need them though? Experience has told me that they are often in the situation of preaching to the converted, with the exception of parents made to attend by SS. What about all those who slip through the net? Are you talking about making parenting classes as widely accepted as say ante-natal classes or something? I'm really interested to know how you'd go about implementing this"

compulsory if you want childbenefit - cb is universal - if your rich enough to not claim it - great. but i would siggest that a lot of society if they wanted their cb would go - therefore creating a cultural shift.