do abusive men ever change? (VERY long)

[Caththerese1973]

Hi
it's hard to go into this in too much depth but I am at the moment temporarily separated from my husband and seriously thinking about making it permanent. My two year old daughter and I are currently staying at my mother's place. Hardly ideal, I feel we have no home right now. The last straw was when my husband followed me around the house on the morning of my daughter's second birthday, screaming abuse, poking me in the face and calling me every offensive name you can think of. All of this, mind you, in front of our daughter. I was going to have a party for her but when he began threatening to abuse my family members when they showed up, I rang everyone up and cancelled, I was too upset to put on a brave face. I then got a few thingsin a bag and caught a taxi with my daughter to my mother's. Ugh. One of the worst days of my life.
Admitttedly the aggression was not all on my side: we had been quarrelling night before and I had opted to sleep in spare bed, which always REALLY pisses him off. Like so many women in this situation I am torn because while he is verbally abusive, VERY controlling and has been known to strike me on occasion, he is also (does this sound crazy?) a good hearted man. He loves o9ur daughter but how is she to know at her age that all this aggro is not her fault? I
should add that he had an atrocious childhood himself: his mother died of liver cancer when he was only ten and even before she died, his father was having an affair with a woman whom he married IMMEDIATELY after the death of my husband's mother. This womna even came to his mother's funeral. Bizarre. Anyway, his stepmother was abusive towards him, gave neither affection nor even money for the things he needed for school (he had to work crap jobs from the age of about 11). His father too, it seems, was abusive and critical and possibly had sexual pathologies (eg would insist on walking around the house naked all the time and would not put on pants even if his children wanted to have friends over.). Josh (my husband) and his older sister were more or less left to fend for themselves from the age of 11 and 13 respectively. Do their own cooking ,washing, get themselves to school etc.
I think one reason I fell in love with my husband was because he needed love so much. Now I find I cannot handle his behaviour. He is just so damaged. Although he has been a total asshole the prosepct of leaving him makes me feel terribly guilty. I hate to think of him alone and desolate, and taking someone's child off them is of course the cruellest thing yiou can do. But then again one must think of the child too.
Sorry this is so long but I have so much on my mind and no-one who will discuss it with me properly. I guess the big question is: is there ANY chance he could learn to control his rage and be a reasonable person, if he wanted to, had therapy and so forth? Does this ever happen? So often one hears that guys like this never change and the situation can only get worse.
Please respond!

I think you're doing absolutely the right thing by working on your dissertation (I love hubtodee's advice about saving it online!). Focus on that, then focus on the future of you and your dd - where you will both live, what job you will do. Distance yourself from all the other stuff.

As Californiagirl's and anorak's messages show, there is (IMO) never going to be one totally uniform, simple prediction about the future of you and your dh. If you felt there was, you wouldn't have asked the questions in the first place. I hope you concentrate on what you do have the power to change - your own future and that of your dd.

Thank you anorak and everyone else for all the replies. I suppose because my dh's abuse seems 'mild' compared with other stories one hears, one hesitates to label him as simply a wife bashing thug. He is more physically intimidating than actually, frighteningly violent. But then again, he IS intimidating. Although I have never been 'in fear' of him, I have had to modify my behaviour simply to avoid or minimise his outbursts. Of course everyone has to modify their behaviour in relationships but I mean the kind of modification that seems absurd and soul-destroying. Then of course there is the sex issue. I never want to have sex with him anymore, mainly, I think, because all the bullying has just permanently turned me off him.
I jave been to see him a coup[le of times with dd since going to stay with mum. He seems very meek, somewhat dazed in fact, although not entirely apologetic or prepared to reconstruct himself to any degree. I suggested he see a psychiatrist as opposed to a counseller (having been through the mill with talking cures myself, I feel that a psychiatrist would be best for him: his problems are so deep seated and also he is seriously depressed in my opinion. depressed men, of course, are often extraordinarily angry. Besides this, he smoked dope for years as a younger guy, very heavily, and while he has quit now I sometimes think that all that pot smoking has really screwed him up).
But this is beside the point somewhat. The more I think about our history as a coiple the guiltier i feel. we are together because i 'accidentally' got pregnant. But was it really an accident? I wasn't actively trying to get pregnant but then again was not using proper birth control (depended on the undependable 'rhythm method). Once i was pregnant i absolutely refused to consider a termination: this would have been his preferred option (although he has no regrets about our lovely dd now). I feel like maybe, semiconsciously, i selfishly used him to get a baby, because I wanted so badly for my wretched, lonely, alcohol fuelled life to actually CHANGE. and it has - for the better in every way except for the terrible relationship with husband. I am a competent person now and a good mother (I think), and I am no longer depressed all the time.
I guess I am wondering: did I ever really 'love' him as such? or just use him to fix up my own problems? basically i think i 'wrote a lot of cheques my butt couldn't cash' when i got involved with such a needy, damaged man. So despite the crapness of his carryings-on, I am feeling pretty guilty. but I know that my child must come first, however much (consciously or potherwise) I manipulated her dad.
anyway thanks again for all the comments and further comments would be VERY welcome.

You answered your own question, Cath. Your daughter comes first, no matter what the circumstances surrounding her birth. Blame on both sides? There ALWAYS is. It's no reason to put up w/abuse. Maybe some abusive men do 'change' (I'm very disinclined to believe this, however), but they can go and do it s/where else besides in front of their own kids. You changed your behaviour for your daughter, he has not (learned to control his anger). So for now, being apart is the best thing you can do for your child. Finish your PhD, get a job, and move on. If he decides to 'change', well, he knows where to find you.

Reading your latest post I was struck by how focussed you are on him, his needs, his situation. Do you think he is constantly thinking about your needs in this way? This type of man is going to make his own needs paramount, and manipulate those around him until they are met. You are just a convenient servant who can get him what he wants.

You say you have received treatments yourself - I hope they showed you that your needs are important and should be top of your list. Yes, more important than his needs. If you have nothing to give, you'll give nothing - to him, and more importantly to dd. You need some emotional currency in reserve so take care of you and let him take care of himself. You are caring for a child as well whereas he has only himself to worry about. Who's taking care of you??

Don't torment yourself with your role in his life. It sounds to me like your marriage has brought him a lot of good things he wouldn't otherwise have, a lovely daughter for one thing. And I bet you have loved him and taken care of him for years. You undervalue yourself. Men like this like you to be down on yourself. It elevates their own status and makes them feel big. It keeps you under their thumb. Your belief in yourself is your passport out the door to a better life.

You can have a relationship where you are loved, considered, cherished, where your needs are monitored and met with love, where your partner's aim in life is to build you up and help you acheive your dreams. Giving someone like that the love you would naturally give is easy - you get the same back. And so you should.

first of all honey, never ever blame yourself for an unplanned PG. it takes two to tango (or make a baby). any man that really doesn't want a baby IMHO should make the effort to use protection himself. all contraception a woman can use, (short of hysterectomy) has a possible failure risk.

as to change - if anyone wants to change, then they have to admit that there's a problem, that their behaviour has to change, not blame anyone else for that problem, and willingly seek professional help to resolve that problem, and work damned hard with that help. you made it through that process with reducing your drinking, but your DH sounds light years away from it at the moment. abusive husbands very rarely will admit that they are the problem - their way of dealing with feelings of negativity is to control someone else, and blame someone else.

also the comments you referred to by him about you drinking in the past/addictive personality is classic controlling man behaviour - saying "you can't live without me", try and hold you closer in his thrall.

as Anorak says, you are putting a lot of thought into his needs/happiness. But you and your daughter's happiness are worth a lot too. And your husband's controlling behaviour has shown how little he is thinking of you and your daughter's happiness.

Best of luck

Wise words from anorak again I think. I agree, you shouldn't feel guilty.

i think you have done the right thing by leaving. i also want to add that your relationship with your husband is different to that of father daughter. meaning you can hate his guts but he will always be her dad. you are not taking your daughter awya from him as if he is interested he will continue with his responsabilities towards your daughter. go to a solicitor and start getting some money towards her upkeep - even if you stick it in an account just for her.

also dont go back becuase your living situation isn't ideal. if you cannot afford private renting or buying and you need to get on the books of a local authority or landlord - this process can take months - so best to get on the list now " just in case" you can always refuse an offer if one is given and you have secured accomodation already.

any update?

no custardo, nothing new, except that dh wants us to 'just come back' and i am feeling pretty wretched. i do not want to go back but it is very hard for me to say this straight out to him (see my post about 'dh wants us back and I have the guilts').
also my parents are getting me down - dad is drunk every day, mum now seems to be hitting it a bit as well (maybe she was while I was living with dh but i didn't know it?)
anyway thanks for interest, it really is boosting me to chat on this board.

no problem - its always good to get feedback. i think you need to do a bit of research into getting your own place - get the facts from the council and look at the private rented in the paper - even if you dont want to do anything at the mo - its best to have the facts to enable you to make an informed decision. keep posting xx

Caththerese1973 - i have to say i have only read your first posting, i felt i didnt have the time to read all the other posts. My ex-p was very very possesive, violent (quite frequently toward the end and i front of my daughter then 2 1/2). His upbringing was awful, mum a junkie, alcholic weirdo, never seen his real dad, thought grand parents were parents, then gdad died g/ma in prison for murder, was working fulltime at 13 left when he was 16 to go into forces. I used to feel so proud of the way he had turned everything around for himself and had nothing but admiration for him - as a partner. The problems started when we had to take on different roles, ie as parents. He didnt seem to have any of the morals or ideals that i had, he didnt understand what was needed and couldnt give up anything, not a minute of his time. It caused so much resentment. Its so sad to say but i think because he never had it - he doesnt know what to give back. My daughter is 4 now and nothing has changed, he comes in and out of her life when he 'has the time' about once every 8 weeks and still thinks he is doing everything he can and thats all thats needed. At least now, i dont have to feel guilty about letting my daughter down - he does that all for himself.