Toxic Brother

[ToxicBrother]

Yes, I am a name changer and I know all about Narniagate and other such things. Please don't out me if you recognise me, I just need to get some anonymous advice.

I wanted advice from the toxic parent group in particular and started this new thread as I don't think that my parents are toxic but you would know more than me about that. I am close to my parents and to me they are good parents, helpful and loving. They have their faults and I know they would of preferred me to take a different approach in some of my parenting and life issues but they have always tried their best to support me in my choices.

My brother has cut our parents out of his life and makes no effort to contact me and our sister. From what he has told me direct and from his friend's reactions to my sister and I when we visit him, he honestly feels our parents are against him & toxic and to a more limited degree he thinks the same of us. This is very hurtful and I struggle to deal with his rejection, he has never even met my youngest child (several months old at this time)

My brother is very intelligent gay man with loads of younger student friends, living on his own in a bedsit claiming the dole. He failed university despite five years of studying and three course changes. He was completely funded by our parents but he preferred to take drugs and drink rather than attend lectures. Now he is nearly 30 years old and has never held a job down for more than a few weeks. He says it is because he is ill/ disabled/gay/bullied. If you talk long enough to get the full story from him, it will turn out he was actually sacked due to his bad timing keeping, his back chat to a manager, doing the opposite to what a manager requested and in one case for smoking a joint in front of the office at lunchtime FFS. and many other silly reasons.

I recently found an article on the net which described him to a T, about passive aggressive behaviour. He has the biggest chip on his shoulder about how the world owes him a living.
He has been on and off the dole for several years and has decided he is 'too disabled to work, but to healthy for disability money' whatever that means.

His 'problems' vary depending on when you talk to him, at the moment he tells me he is disabled (no specifies for this one yet), autism, lactose intolerance and IBS. But as he displays no symptoms of any of these conditions and neither has the doctor nor hospital found any proof, I remain highly sceptical of these claims. And trying to claim 'disability' makes me so cross I could spit feathers. I have a family member suffering from long term effects of MS and another friend who uses a wheelchair. How dare he try and put himself in the same category as these ladies

The last time we saw him as a family was over a year ago. He was given money to get a train to the parental home and money to buy a gift/card for our fathers birthday. He didn't set off until we rang him to find out why he had not turned up at the train station. Hence I had to run around cancelling our original table booking and try and find another place to eat for 10 people with no notice, for when he would be arriving a couple of hours later. He finally arrived in a car load of students, looking scruffy, hungover and didn't understand why my parents were not interested in inviting these strangers in the house for coffee, when we had to leave straight away to make the new table booking.

We got to the cheap pub (rather than the lovely restaurant we had the earlier table booking at) The food was terrible, the service long, my toddler fell asleep waiting for food. I was forced to leave the meal early to take my hungry, screaming over tired child home. My brother said he had forgotten it was our father's birthday so had arrived with no present or card, I guess he spent the money we sent him on beer. Then he moaned about his current illnesses and how he never had any money and he hadn't been abroad for a holiday for 5 years and how horrible my parents were to be upset for him failing his degree. I wanted to slap him, he had done nothing but laze around, drink and smoke for years, what could he possible need a holiday from ?

I bet it sounds unlikely after this long post but I do love him and want an adult relationship with him but I don't like his childish attitude towards life, work and his actions towards the family over the last few years. I started to dread attending family events as I knew he would turn up late and cause bad feelings with his snide remarks about poor him, whilst my mother tried desperately not to cry, pasting on a fake smile and trying to jolly everyone along. But when I see him alone or with just our sister, he is very nice to us, which I find very confusing.

Is there any reason to think my parents are being toxic to him ? As I can not see it, from my position he is the one that isn't behaving normally. But he keeps insisting that our parents are terrible people and awful to him. The only thing I can see, if that our parents have struggled with him being gay (it was how they were brought up) but they have been to counselling, attended gay support groups and welcome his boyfriends into their home, what more are they meant to do ?

But it is not good enough for my brother, nothing ever is good enough and it is always someone elses fault/problem. He thinks everything is about him, after the birth of my youngest, he started chinese whispers around the family, claiming I have fallen out with him because of the names I gave my new baby FFS

Is anyone being toxic here ? Can I do anything to mend bridges or am I fighting a losing battle ?

I will give you a short and simple response as opposed to the lengthier one I could supply!

Your brother perceives your/his parents in his own unique way and he is entirely entitled to do so.

You cannot possibly judge his feelings towards your parents - this is HIS perspective.

If he does feel they were 'toxic' then this probably explains many of his issues that you describe.

You musn't blame him for these things but he needs to be guided into taking responsibility for his life now - separate from his childhood. You must also understand that this is very difficult to do if you feel you have suffered from toxic parenting.

Susan Forward ('Toxic Parents') describes the phenomena of children of a family experiencing toxic parenting and then the siblings siding with parents agaainst the one child who speaks out about the damage done. She discusses this in the context of sexual abuse in families if I recall correctly...

Does any of this help?

He sounds utterly self-centered to me - I tend to not have sympathy for people who think the world owes them. Sorry. I have sympathy for you, though.

This is why I am struggling to understand this situation. Is it possible for my brother to have toxic parents, if my sister and I don't IYSWIM ?

This is it FBB, I am tempted to write him off an a selfish git, who thinks the world owes him a living and he is blaming our parents for his crap life.

But I need to find a way of building bridges or learning to cope with him and I want him to be happy.

I think it is. For a start there is a gender divide. Y'know how children can think that, say, the brother gets everything but that brother thinks that actually he gets loads of stuff but his little sisters get all the love?? See what I mean.

First thing might be to talk to him about the roots of his feelings. This would need to be a listening exercise, no judgement. to be honest though, he sounds rather damaged and it might be muddling for you all to deal with this without professional help.

hobbgoblin, do you think counselling would help him ? I know he goes to his GP frequently, could they refer him to an independant counseller ?

I have listened to him a lot but I don't feel he tells me what he really thinks, he seems to tell me he thinks I want to hear.

I have offered to help him find a job, helped him out with money and even wrote him essay plans for him when he was struggling with university work. He accepts my offers of help in theory but then goes out of contact, so his actions suggest that he didn't want help in those ways.

Do I know you TB?

I know somebody just like him and the more I helped the worse it was. If he feels like he missed out in some way then he will extract whatever he can out of people/life in general without giving anything back as as sort of recompense perhaps for something he feels he should have had as a child. some people damaged in this way will sap others until they are dry and still it will not compensate for whatever the gaping hole in their life and emotions may be. Something like CBT or Psychodynamic therapy may help him.

Another possibilty might be family therapy but all therpay requires massive commitment and a recognition of the need to change plus the ability in all parties to acknowledge the truth. Not only your truth but the truth of others and perhaps the real truth of what is/was your family situation.

I think this will be a hugely beneficial but painful experience for all concerned but it does sound as though you are recognising the need for such a challenge and are prepared to face it. However, I know very little - only what you have written here. There is no shame in walking away but you don't sound as though you wish to do that.

tmmj there is a raft of evidence to suggest that it is not all crap, to be fair. Your way of viewing things is valid but some people can't just bury the crap.

I am going back and forth on this all the time.

Sometime I do think he is a "selfish little shit who has never grown up" and just want to cut of all contact.

Then other times I think, he is family and family is important. I hate to think of him growing old and grey, alone in his bedsit, with no future. When I say no future I am not referring to a sparkling career and massive house etc. Just achieving a way of life which will make him content and happy. If he was happy on the dole, I would be happy but he can't be happy if he strikes out at his family all the time.

I don't think that you can do any more than you have already done tbh. You are not obliged to like him or to help him out just because you're related. My feeling is very much that he has been spoon fed for most of his life and is in shock because he is having to fend for himself now that he's an adult. If you offer to help him find a job or pay for a holiday then all you are doing is allowing him to continue to behave the way he is. After all, if he is constantly bailed out then why on earth would he ever bother fending for himself?

Yes, he has issues and is very probably depressed but all you can do is suggest that he finds help for that. Much as you may want to, you can't do it for him. He is an adult and has to take responsibility for himself. If he chooses to think that the world is against him and it isn't his fault - that is his choice - nothing you say will change his mind.

I wonder if such a thing exists as counselling for families that works in the smae way that Relate works on marriages? I doubt he understands the pain that his attitude causes you, he's far too self centred for that. Family counselling could well help that.

What on earth is his problem with your new baby's name??

dittany, As a unit of four (with my brother not present) we don't have any problems as a family.

You are right we have spent far too long walking on eggshells around my brother. I have stopped giving him money and my father had enough at his birthday and vowed to never rearrange anything for my brother again. I suspect these two reasons are why we haven't seen him in so long.

I started thinking about this again, as it is coming up for christmas and I am trying to figure out a way forward. I emailed him (he won't answer his phone or return my voice messages)and asked about his plans for christmas and he said he will come to the parental home if my parents fund him. I miss him, but dread a christmas spoilt with his comments and bad behaviour.

Tigerfeet, Yes

The thing with families is that they can throw up personalities that don't necessarily get along. Compromises have to be made in order to keep the peace at times. It takes all parties to do their bit for that to work, and your brother is not prepared to compromise. Everything is done on his terms or he sulks.

I am glad you have stopped funding him and that everyone's plans are not revolving round him. He is going to have to learn the hard way that if he wants to be a part of your family then he has to do his bit. If that means no contact other than high days and holidays - remember that it is his choice - and I can't stress that enough. You have done all you can, more than many would.

Your problem, if you can call it a problem, is that you are so lovely and care so much. You feel that you have to fix the problem, fix him even and I'm afraid you can't.

I have two brothers, so one to spare, would you like one? They are clean and are house trained .

dittany,
He spoke to my mum, who didn't want to worry me and so she spoke to my sister, who rang me straight up (we are very close) and got the truth.
He is the youngest by several years and so was practical raised as an only child, money was very tight for my sister and I but things got better as we got older and left home. So he was spoilt and spoon fed and fully funded though uni (I had both term and holidays jobs) including pocket money. He was raised with far more material objects than we were. Also my sister and I have always worked, he never held down even a saturday job, just milked money out of our parents.

marlasinger Very familiar. If not for your baby I would swear you were my sister

Tigerfeet I'll swap two for one

"A family that needs one member excluded in order to function harmoniously is one with problems."

Dittany is right. It's interesting that you feel that things are better when your brother isn't around. I don't know whether or not his feelings are valid but one thing that stands out from your posts about him is that you seem to see only negative things about him. If you read your own posts again you will see that you haven't written one positive thing about him anywhere. Even when you say that he is nice to you you then go on to turn into a negative thing and say that it confuses you. I'm not pointing this out to get at you in any way I promise. I only mention it because I suspect that your brother is picking up on these feelings no matter how well you think you are hiding it.

From what I know about autism one of the big issues is not knowing how to behave in social situations. You've given lots of examples of that with your brother. With a family of your own to care for you might not have much time but have you looked into autism and how it can show itself in adults? If not it might help to clarify things one way or another.

Reading between the lines in your posts it sounds as though you treat him like a child in some ways but then complain when he acts like a child. As an adult he has made his choice to take a step back from things and I think you really need to respect that.

One final point is that you say that your parents can't be toxic because you and your sister get on well with them. It's not uncommon for siblings to have completely different experiences to each other. You say that your brother was brought up differently to your sister and yourself. He was given more material possessions than you had but perhaps with those extras came greater expectations of how he should act and live his life?

Hi TB,

Re your comment:-

"I have offered to help him find a job, helped him out with money and even wrote him essay plans for him when he was struggling with university work. He accepts my offers of help in theory but then goes out of contact, so his actions suggest that he didn't want help in those ways"

He sounds an awful lot like my BIL and in his case he is truly a spoilt git who thinks the world owes him a living. He has also had enabling family members too.

I am glad to read that you've now stopped enabling him because enabling actually helps no-one. All enabling does is shield the person from the consequences of their actions. Who btw gave him cash a year ago to get to the train station?. I hope it was not you.

I would certainly concur with this point that SteadyNeddy made (it is also an argument I put to my DH re his brother because he said that they had a similar sort of childhood. My reply was something along the lines of Well no you did not) which bears repeating:-

"One final point is that you say that your parents can't be toxic because you and your sister get on well with them. It's not uncommon for siblings to have completely different experiences to each other. You say that your brother was brought up differently to your sister and yourself. He was given more material possessions than you had but perhaps with those extras came greater expectations of how he should act and live his life?".

You all have different perceptions of your childhoods.

I don't think you can actually mend fences here; it has to be two way and he just doesn't want to know.

You cannot rescue someone and/or save someone who ultimately does not want to be saved - this is a hard lesson to learn (and my DH realises this now too). It is a painful lesson.

Denial of the problem is also commonly seen in these types of situations; there is certainly denial and much head in sand stuff amongst his own parents who have also enabled him to the nth degree. They aren't blameless either.

Yes, that is another toxic factor, my brother does sadly excludes himself from all family events and yes this is a problem.

Even when the venue, date, time have been set by my brother and either my sister or I have promised to cover any costs, he will still turn up late and provoke arguments.

I haven't said anything nice about my sister on this post either, nor my best friend. This isn't a fluffy thread, it is an advice thread.

He isn't on the autistic spectrum, I have done research in this area and when he first suggested the possibility I directed him to the relevent places and he was diagnosed as being NT.

Yes, the more I post and the more I read on the other toxic thread the more certain I am that he is the toxic element in the family. He delibrately excludes the family, he plays games and is emotionally damaging.

Now I will look to move on and see what kind of relationship I can have with a toxic brother.

1. for now, stop trying to fix him.
2. you say you love him, so think about what you like about him or being with him, and try to arrange to meet occassionally just for a coffee, NO agenda, no expectations.

He doesn't sound that toxic to me. He sounds a bit paranoid, depressed and angry. He's not trying to manipulate you all as such. It's like he just wants to be left alone to vegetate, and of course, as his family, you can't ever be happy about that.

But I think describing him as toxic is a bit harsh. If he's gay and depressed and you're all settled and successful, he probably (rightly?) feels that you don't understand him. And he'd probably be right, no matter how much you love him.

My BIL is not much different from your brother; I can see many, many similarities between him and your Brother.

No-one in his family should promise to stump up costs of travelling etc for him; this is enabling behaviour and won't do either you or him any favours. You're not enabling him anymore, good, but no-one else should be either. Enabling can actually entrench the situation further (this has certainly happened with my BIL).

Do you want any sort of relationship with such a person; he is more than happy to drag you down with him. We've had to set firm boundaries; I did that long before my DH did with his brother but he's now seen for his own self what his brother is actually like. Its a painful realisation, I know BIL is hurt but he just does not want to know or to make changes. You cannot help anyone like this; any will to change has to come from them.

Attila, I think you hit the nail on the head. A relationship is a two way street and I may never understand why he wants to cut me off.

I feel terrible that we have stopped enabling him in his rude behaviour, but I agree it was the right thing to do.

I really hope that one day, he'll decide to seek us out and be part of the family like things used to be but I have to accept this may never happen.

I will continue to leave messages on his voice mail/email to him and track his social life via facebook. In other words I will get on with my life and I will keep the door open just in case but I have to wait to see if he'll make an effort.

I have to learn to let go.