Can we have an intelligent debate about what 'marriage' means?

[sparkybabe]

It is no secret that my marriage is breaking up, but in the process I have been reviewing what I feel about marriage. I have been married for 17 years, and have 3 dc. When I got maried, I realise now that I was looking for someone who had a) good job b) good genes intelectually and c) someone I liked. Love did not really come into it, I suppose I knew I didn't love him, but I liked him, we had lots in common and as I said he was a good provider.
Anyway, thinking about marriage - its 'man-made, ie made by MAN! Why then is it so Man-unfriendly?
WHat do men want - sex, lots of it, with different women. It's in their make-up to spread their seed throughout the gene pool. Why do they sign up to be with ONE woman for life? It's not logical, but we are indoctrinated (men too) to think of 'adulterers' as criminal.

Women need someone who can bring home the food, provide shelter and safety, and impregnate them. The mariage vows actually benefit women far more than they do men. So why?
Basic human needs are
Warmth
Food
Water
Sex.
Why is ok to share 3 of these 4 with others, but not the 4th?
I am not religious in any way, so pleaase don't come on here saying well Christ wanted us to be monogamous and to come between a man and his wife is wrong. That is too easy. Why is it wrong? Why are we sooo indoctrinated as to feel that sex with other men/women is wrong? Why is it we feel murderous rage against the OW/OM? Would we be happier in so-called 'open' marriages? Why do we get so possessive about our spouses?

Intelligent debate please? I am interested.

sometimes i wish i could have male friends just to go out and have a coffee or chat without feeling quilty, but i am the same with my dh, if he mentions another woman or ssays his going out, my mind automaticaly things , affair etc, i think woman who can go through life and have a open attitude is not wrong and especially when their husbands, partners understand and are open about it all,i think when i married i thought that was it his the only man i could talk to etc, not go out with a male friend,and nor him, but i do also think thats when trouble starts and the lies, coz we have the old views on marriage we think its not the done thing, he gets the hump if i mention a blokes name, so is it the old views mixed with the new ones now and thats why its hard to be upfront and honest with eachother, i know couples who swing but i wud never take part and dh says the same,but deep down do we mean it, i dont judge people and what ever makes people happy in their relationships then thats fine,it is an old fashioned vow that we stay with that one person, some are happy to ,me included but does that mean coz i get jealous i pushed him into going else where and he wont tell me the whole story coz worried i wud flip and thats the end of 19yrs together,i am confused ,open and honest is best ,but i dont know if i could really deal with him saying he wanted sex withother people, but then i wud know, so what hurts more lies or honest,i repect couples who can talk and be honest with each other and still be happy, i just wish mumsnet was around before i got married or men and women where more open,then i wud not be sitting here thinking i have failed in some way.

SolidGold, what makes you think people haven't thought about what they want and talked to their partners about what they want before they get into a serious monogamous relationship? Do you know lots of people who have mindlessly done this and are now unhappy?

Have any of you done this? Got into a relationship without knowing whether each other wants to be monogamous and then become unhappy because one of you doesn't?

Why do you think anyone who is in a monogamous relationship has blindly fallen into it in a brainless fashion?

Tiff, the thing about the continuum concept is that most stagnant groups tend not to survive, because they don't evolve. Humans in general succeed because they adapt. I believe the group Leidloff spent time with are close to extinction.

What if one of the women changed their mind about their role within the group and opted to hunt? What if she was particularly good at it because of skills acquired thru' her father's genes? What if most of the men were taken sick and could not provide? Would she be banned because it is not her place?

You have generalised behaviour looking at men,women and children. But then I have only what I know to reflect upon - I like being in the company of my OH and our children. As for happier in the presence of the same, sometimes men in the pub drinking fight, women chatting fight and children playing fight.

Tracksuitlover: Well I have encountered people (in RL and elsewhere on line) who have made themselves and their partners very unhappy by making assumptions about monogamy (ie thinking that because they have had sex with a person, or have been having regular sex with a person for so many months, that person is now not allowed to have sex with anyone else - BUT it has never actually been discussed). There have been one or two threads on here about people who pressured a partner to 'commit' and the partner then went off and had sex elsewhere because the partner was not monogamously inclined and should hever have pretended/tried to be so. A common problem with monogamous people is that they feel that they are entitled to insist on monogamy despite a partner's wishes, past behaviour or even clear communication that the partner does not want a monogamous relationship, because monogamy is superior/inevitable for everyone in the end. There is still immense social pressure on people to be monogamous, those who choose not to be have to put up with a lot of crap, not just from partners but from eveyrone around them, so the less tough often give in - and make themselves and partners miserable.

Forgive me for only reading 1/2 of the posts but I do have a logical explanation for why it upsets females to reproduce with unfaithful males.

It means that the males are less able to provide for their offspring.

I watched a fabulous documentary on BBC where a lioness who mated with a lion from another pride had to fend for herself and for her own cubs rather than have a properly established family set up to help her succeed.

Can I also add that not all men are interested in being with other women?

The problem with the OP's list of basic human comforts is that sex isn't really like the rest, is it? You don't "need" it in order to survive, not like you need food and warmth. The misconception that you do - which leads people to think they have a right to it - is one of the things which can make people treat one another badly.

If you are not a "naturally monogamous" person - and I'm not sure if there is actually a difference between this and someone who just happens to like shagging around - then I think you owe it to people not to get involved with someone who expects fidelity. Otherwise it ends up being used as an all-justifying excuse. "Yes, but darling, you know I can't be faithful, I'm just not naturally monogamous."

I do think - and this is perhaps the contentious bit - that if you enter into a relationship with someone, it should be assumed that neither of you is going to shag anyone else unless there is a very clear understanding on both sides that this isn't the case. In other words I think a default presumption of monogamy is no bad thing.

Squitten and Tiffany - thanks for your posts, at least someone is prepared to debate whether fidelity is a human characteristic or something foisted on us! It's interesting how many of you are actually very defensive/abusive, Anna for one! Alth IIRK Anna - you live in france don't you, where as far as I know, mistresses are not seen in quite the same light as in England. In fact a married man is (AFAIK) almost expected to take a mistress, and the culture there is tolerant of it. The culture here is one of hostility, and my question was - is it a good thing or not? Sparky68 and her DH seem to have taken this possessiveness to a level that most of us would not live by, in that they cannot even have coffee with a membner of the opposite sex. One hundred years ago, that would have been normal, and scandalous to think! One hundred and fifty years ago to show a leg or uncovered skin would have been
unthinkable. Who knows what we'll look back on in another hundred years and think - were we really that insecure? Did we really set ourselves up for such hurt?
As for the animals who do pair-bond (like swans) for life - it is not something that they do becasue they are expected to, as humans are. They do it because of their nature. And I really do NOT think that human nature is like that - it is not in our nature to be monogamous. I realise that is a generalisation, but generally we are animals who are attracted to others, like it or not. I have a male freind who is at present in a relationship with a girl who does not want as much sex as he does, so he gets it from another, ex-girlfriend. This relationship is known to all in it, so is it bad? No-one is married, everyone would seem to be gettting what they want from the relationship, so what is the prob? BUT if he was married, to (lets call her ) Number 1 girlfriend, what would you think? Adulterer? Cheat?

FFS sparky! I think several people have debated this point with you. Simply ignoring their arguments doesn't mean they didn't make them

I don't give a flying t*ss why people are faithful/unfaithful. As long as what they choose to doesn't cause pain and disruption to those around them.

Dadada - that is my experience of what men want - well mine anyway. Thankfully.

I'm not one of the ones who can't have coffee with a male friend, or a close platonic/business relationship. But I can't imagine having sex with another man. I just can't. Possibly something wrong with me, but definitely not something foisted on me by society. Even in the years when our relationship had temporarily broken off, it didn't occur to me. And that was certainly not because society expected me to remain celebate. I just couldn't separate the idea of sex from that of the love of my life. I know this is an unusual experience, but it happens to be mine.

And no, I didn't get depressive and suicidal because I couldn't have sex.

Are we the only species that seems to have no clear-cut 'natural law' about this?
I mean birds and animals either mate for life or they don't. The males of some species help feed the babies others shag and go. Some animals live in groups of females and young and share the care of the young. Some birds mate for life and if their partner dies they spend the rest of their life alone.

Why are we so fucked up?

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