How seriously should I take this threat?

[mrshankly]

This is the situation I find myself in.

I came home from a kids thing today with my eldest DC (4). He had been in the house looking after other DC (7 months) since just after lunchtime and it was approaching dinnertime by the time I returned. I walked in the door and saw that he hadn't made any effort to tidy up after lunch or do any of the three piles of washing I had sorted into colours etc. Dinner hadn't been started and it was nearly bathtime for kids.
I looked at the computer which was on and he had been checking out various websites while I had been away so obviously had time for THAT. I went upstairs and he was lying in bed (while holding DC), the room was a total tip, towels on floor etc. I was really pissed off as I look after both kids full time and keep the house together so at the weekend I want him to help with kids AND housework. Not just one or the other. He has a hot meal waiting and all that stereotypical nonsense. Anyway, that's an ongoing issue so maybe that's why I was sooo pissed off. He was making excuses but I couldn't be bothered listening, I was so angry, so I came downstairs and starting cleaning up and making dinner whilst seething. He brought kids down and I said to him 'I'm actually really angry with you that you didn't do anything' and he told me to fuck off (kids present, he's still holding DC2). This makes me more angry and I started shouting at him that he is lazy. I was really screaming at him (from the kitchen- he was in living room) so I take responsibility for that- I shouldn't have lost it but THEN, he goes off saying that he hates me and picks up something and moves as if to throw it at me (think it was the baby monitor) but stops before actually throwing it at me. I tell him to leave and he says 'No YOU leave. If you don't leave I'll kill you'.
I just froze and eventually asked him to leave again. He's still sitting holding DC2 and DC1 is sobbing asking us to calm down. I tell him I am going nowhere without the children and appealed to his common sense to leave and cool down. I started crying and shaking and he agreed to go and gave me DC2. He came back a while later but I told him to stay at a relatives and we'll speak tomorrow. He told me he didn't mean what he had said and agreed to leave it until tomorrow.

I have noidea what to do and could do with some wisdom right now.

He behaved similarly on one occasion about 7 years ago (been together for over 10 years) and stopped drinking because of it as he felt out of control when drinking. Same as this time, no physical intimidation but a threat of 'going to kill you'.

I need to stress he has never touched me in all the years we've been together and is a very placid person by nature. I am usually the volatile one although he once flipped and smashed a laptop during an argument. I have kicked a few doors, smashed a few cups etc myself though, over the years.

This year has been very stressful for both of us with enormous strains on both sides of our families and as a result, he has very few people to talk to about his problems. I'm not making excuses for him, just giving a rounded picture.

I need to figure out what to do next and want to make good decisions for my children.....shit.

I think when he listens to me complaining about the housework, he is hearing 'you are a loser' in his head, regardless of what I say... he is very sensitive to criticism because of his childhood which was full of negativity. I don't think he's a loser, just selfish in the way he prioritises things.

I'm really worried I can't relax with him ever again. I don't want to be walking on eggshells or scared of losing my temper incase it happens again. The fact that the children were there makes it so much worse...

How do you think he should deal with it LewisFan?

He has a choice about his childhood though; he can use it as an exceptionally convenient excuse (oh, I don't know how to deal with these feelings - I was never loved) or he can say "Right, I had a shit childhood - I'm an adult now and know what reasonable behaviour is and not everyone is out to get me..." and be an adult.

would he contemplate counselling? (as I said - it's free on NHS)

I think he should get anger management, counselling for his upbringing - if it really is affecting him that much, it needs dealing with if he won't just lay it aside.

I think he needs to look at his reaction - why did he do it and so out of the blue?

It's escalated from the last time though - remember that... even though it was a few years ago.

I do think there is hope if you both get help though...

You definately need some couselling if you want to stay together. You said his Dad was a bully and a verbal abuser, suggesting that that's where he gets it from.
Your argument happened in front of your young children and your 4 year old actually ends up in tears, probably very frightened. There is a strong likelihood that your 4 year old will also end up being a bully if that's what he hears his Dad doing, and his mum living with it and therefore accepting it. It's shocking and not normal for threats like this, and especially to be made in front of your children.
It seems like he only got mad cos perhaps he felt you were telling him off over house work, and he can't see it's that big a deal, but the situation escalated quickly, from what you said in your OP.
You really have to seek help. I hope you reassured your kids that Daddy didn't mean it and that they're safe and nothing will happen to you.

Actually, we both have so many issues from our childhoods, maybe neither of us can be good partners. Both our fathers were drinkers and neither of us speak to our parents as a result. We have very little support, very little time as a couple and no spare money. Add two small children and that's alot of stress.
We have always been a tad dramatic though and would argue even if loaded but I think we're closer to the edge emotionally with all these factors at the moment...

so what's the plan?

You do have a few options - it's not as cut and dry as "he's threatened to kill me, I'm off" I don't think

Counselling would be my first port of call tbh...

What about separating whilst that goes on? You needn't split - but live apart IYSWIM because counselling can be REALLY tough

But this cycle has to stop - you both have issues from your childhood, and you don't want your children growing up remembering that mummy and daddy used to scream at each other and Daddy used to say he was going to kill mummy. You don't want your kids going down the same route.

No, you don't have to split. I agree with LewisFan - you may need a trial separation just to clear your head and give each other time to reflect.

Counselling would help you communicate with each other better and make you realise why you act the way you do, and how to change the way you deal with things for a healthier relationsip with yourselves andyour kids.

EmmaPr- yes, his dad was a bully and verbal abuser and DH has never been bullying or abusive apart from the two incidents I've mentioned (one 7 years ago and today). In between he has been very passive and tends to be moody rather than angry. I've only seen him properly shout about two times in the 10 years we've been together... He is brilliant with the children and neither of us have ever shouted at them. We are both very anti-violence so this is out of character for him.
He has received cognitive behavioural therapy to help with long term depression and they touched on his upbringing but the sessions ran out (only got so many sessions free on NHS). He is definitely damaged from his childhood but doesn't dine out on it, actually he plays it down which is part of the problem... some of the things he saw/experienced were truly horrific.

LF- you're right it has escalated and that's my worry... I feel I shouldn't take any risks but at the same time want to be fair.

He had to wait about 6 months for that free counselling though...we need to start sorting this out now.
If we had a trial separation how should I tackle how/when he sees children?
Feel totally overwhelmed.

Even though you both have never shouted at the children, for them to witness a threat like you received is just as bad, but you know this.

It's good to hear that your DH has had cognitive therapy in the past, so he's not entirely against getting help.

You still do have good things to say about DH so I do believe you want things to work out, and understand why DH may be like he is. So, I don't think a complete split would be the answer.

Do you have a good GP? Can you both go to see him re: your husband's depression and get a referral to a specialist again?

Anger management for both of you wouldn't be a bad thing either. It's a complex issue really!!! Sorry I'm not helping!

You're right, I know that it was just awful for my DCs to witness that EmmaPr and that is my motivation to change the course of our relationship...

He's not at all against getting help and has encouraged me to get counselling to deal with my past too. It really has mainly been a financial concern.

He takes medication for his depression which works really well. The cognitive therapy was to deal with his negative thought patterns that caused behaviour like procrastination, lack of organisation and not trusting people. It was starting to help when the sessions ran out.

It is really complex but you are all helping so much, you're asking all the right questions and making me see the whole picture. Thanks everyone...

We love each other very much but have both been very let down by people and we still have alot of anger I think. It makes me so sad just thinking about it. We're taking it out on each other.

Your separation isn't going to be too long, not long enough for him to need formal time set up to see the kids. This is what I think:

Can you leave you kids with anyone (a good friend?) whilst you and DH have a good talk? You need to talk to him about what you feel, ie. that as much as you love him and understand his issues, how the argument escalated couldn't happen again, and how worried you were by his threat (even if he waves this off as just angry words you need to explain how upset your DC was and how children take everything at face value, and how actually, you were unnerved too). Can you have that talk fairly soon and maybe have a trial period of living together again with a few ground rules. In the meantime apply for counselling again in case you need it again in the future.

Maybe some ground rules should be:
No swearing in front of the children
No threats in front of the children
Who does what around the house

If you go out for the day spell it out to him that could he put the washing in the machine and do the washing up etc etc, but remember it is his rest time too, and his quality time with his children.

If this sort of thing happens again then say you have to separate for the sake of your children.

I need to go to bed but let us know what you decide to do.

We'll talk tomorrow.

I know this can never happen again and without help, I think it might so yes, I will go to my GP and try to get a referral for counselling.

I'll also speak to DC1 about it and try to reassure her that we both love her and each other... I used to sit shaking watching my parents going at each other so I know it is very frightening.

I feel like we don't know how to deal with conflict healthily and are just repeating what we saw as children...I wanted better for my babies.

Me too. Thanks EmmaPr and all.........

Morning everyone. Thanks for your advise last night, esp EmmaPr and LewisFan who came up with some really thought provoking stuff.

I had an absolutely shit sleep and it's all still as clear as mud but I think I have a firmer grasp of how I'm playing a part in this too.

We'll talk today but I don't feel ready to have him home...I'm scared that the trust I had for him has gone. I don't want to be afraid of my husband. It just seems like a mountain to climb and I'm so knackered with just getting by with the kids and trying to keep our heads afloat. The thought of it all is so exhausting.

How did you get on today? I thought about this alot last night too. The last thing you said about you both just repeating what you saw as children and wanting better for your babies was very important, and you have to keep telling yourself that.
I told my husband about your story and feel really lucky not to have ever felt threatened or afraid.
If you do feel afraid, you know it'll rub off on your little ones, their self confidence and outlook on life and people.
If you do have to eventually split up with your DH then you know you are doing it for the right reasons and that you've tried so hard.
I wish you luck, and please let us know how you get on and what you decide to do.

Just watching out for you and hoping you find a clear way forward and a few hours decent sleep.

Hi Emma and LittlePushka- thanks for checking up on me.
Well, he's back today after lots of talking yesterday. We have both been very honest and the conclusion is that we both really need individual counselling to deal with our pasts and how we cope with anger... we're prioritising him getting counselling first though, given the seriousness of what he said during that argument. We're both going to speak to DC1 about what happened, apologise to her and reassure her that it won't happen again. DC2 is only 7 months.
I'm still wary- I'm not going to naively think that everything is going to be lovely so I'm going to give it a certain amount of time and expect him to be making efforts to put counselling in place, etc or I will need to consider separation. He has given us and himself a real fright so we shall see.
I want to stress that he has never hurt me or the children, doesn't call me names, isn't jealous or try to control me or any display any signs of being an abuser. Not to make excuses for him, just to communicate the isolated nature of this behaviour.
I believe he doesn't vent his anger and frustration enough actually because he is so scared of being like his dad who was pretty violent and controlling. The thought of making his kids and me feel the way he did has really freaked him out.
I think the risk is getting complacent once the dust as settled and slipping back into old patterns, that's why I think the counselling is absolutely necessary, for both of us.
I want to thank everyone that has given this their time- I really appreciate all of your advise and support. I've told a close friend and my DH has spoke to his so that we can be supported and have other people to talk to about our stresses. Big love to the mighty mumsnetters...x

If you're angry, there is a middle way between 'shouting' and 'suppressing': talking. You say 'I am feeling very angry'. You take some time out to calm down, then you try to fix the underlying problems.

'I am going to kill you' is not a nice thing to say, or a reasonable thing to say, but it sounds like he was trying (somewhat badly) to tell you how angry he was.

This is good news Mrs S,...I am sure you must feel much more positive and even a little happier about the future. Power to you!

NotQuiteCockney- you're right, that's what we both need to learn how to do... I come from a family of quick tempers and tend to explode and then talk later...DH comes from a background where he was physically abused by one parent and shown no affection by the other so we both need to appreciate our reactions to anger are different and work out a way to communicate our anger in a way we both understand. That's exactly what DH said when we talked NQC, that he was 'trying to tell me how angry he was because I wasn't listening'... Not an excuse though and I, and he, know that.

LittlePushka- I do feel positive and I think now this could give us both the kick up the arse we needed to start sorted things out... I'm worried we get complacent though but hopefully the counselling will make the difference.

Good for you. x

He actually sounds exactly like my (female) partner: idle, untidy, puts everything before sorting the children out, aggressive when challenged about it.

I haven't found an answer.