"But we took you to stately homes" - Part 4

[oneplusone]

Can't beleive we're onto part 4, although i can't see this thread ever dying.

I was just reading through past posts to try and catch up on the months i have missed and something somebody said has triggered something for me. I know my mother didn't bond with me or love me and i think part of the reason why was because she thought i took after my dad whom she hates (although she is too gutless to leave him). I remember when i was young her saying things like my hair was like my dad's but she wouldn't say it an affectionate way, but quite a venomous way and it always made me feel uncomfortable when she said that but i must have been too young to figure out why.

The more i realise about my mother the more i despise and hate her. I remember she used to play hide and seek with me when i was very young, about 3. Only she would 'really' hide in a place i would never be able to find her. I remember crying and feeling completely distressed one time as i thought she had gone and left me alone at home. It was only after i had been crying for some time that she jumped out laughing from her hiding place. What a nasty, cruel, ugly piece of work and she parades around looking as if butter wouldn't melt and she has a lot of people fooled including my 2 sisters. I know my dad can see her for what she is which is why she hates him and i can see her true colours too which is why i hate her.

I know inside she is deeply insecure, lacks intelligence, strength and integrity. I have witnessed her lie, manipulate and cheat to get what she wants and the people to whom she lies and those who she manipulates are us, her own family. I just can't beleive my sisters cannot see through her, they are totally blind and deaf to her true character and have completely fallen for the victim role she has carved out for herself.

Cutting off my parents was the best thing i ever did and i have realised i need to set some boundaries with my sisters, my last remaining friend and even DH. How to do that is another thing, something completely new to me.

OnePlusOne, you do sound like you are starting to feel some of the things that hurt you, and I can really see from your descriptions how those things would hurt. Other things it sounds like you can remember the facts but still aren't feeling the feelings, they are still blocked. Feeling some of them at a time sounds good though!

You also sound like you are recognising when you take out your feelings on your DH and starting to see what he has actually done in more perspective. I could be wrong but I feel there is hope for your relationship because I used to feel similar with mine but now feel relieved I didn't do anything drastic because I feel really contented with him now and really loving and connected. Not long ago I felt despair and kept wondering whether I really should have left him when he did x or y or z before I had children and married him and am now 'trapped'.

Things really improved recently when everytime I felt extreme I made a conscious effort to evaluate whether there was a sound logical reason for my reaction, and if it was hard to find one I decided it must be a trigger for the feelings from past events and thought about what was being triggered. I wrote some of them on here. Since I started doing this I've been triggered a lot less! Writing things down always seems to work more than anything else for me.

This thread is so useful because I feel I CAN go on about the things that I'd be worried would sound too trivial/stupid to talk to other people about. I'm gradually losing more and more of the (shy-ness?).

I've always seen this thread in active convos but I've never read it. But I thought this would interest regulars.
backgroundnews story

Hiya,

I've always kept an eye on this thread and posted under a different name in the past. And, sorry in advance for jumping in and randomly spouting off

After reading another thread about the death of a toxic parent, I just wanted to ask about others experience of this? Also, for those of you that have not experienced it, have you prepared for it in any way or how do you feel about it knowing that it is inevitable?

I really don't mean to be morbid. As a little background info - not spoken to my mother for about 18 months, whole family have turned against me and 'sided' with her except for my dad. Parents are divorced, both with new partners. My mums husband was taken into hospital with a serious illness which prompted pressure from my dad to 'sort things out' with my mum. He said he doesn't want to die knowing that my mum and I never spoke again and doesn't want my mum to die without me speaking to her. He takes a rather sympathetic stance towards my mother due to the guilt she successfully puts on him because he was a shit in their marriage. My dad is/was far from perfect but I get on with him these days if we keep off the subject of my mum.

I have no intentions of sorting things out with my mother because my life has improved HUGELY since I made the break and the price I am willing to pay is losing the remainder of my family forever and that was something that took me a very long time to accept because I felt so wronged and no one cared about my feelings at all. They were all far too worried about hurting my ever so poor and sensitive, fragile, guilt-tripping mother. I worry about regrets or guilt when the time comes that she passes away in the future. Hubby is very supportive and we talk about it. I have always said I will never go to her funeral, not because I hold grudges, but because basically I feel like I don't care about her anymore whatsoever, I do not want her anywhere near my life because she will absolutely wreck it. Does that sound normal to anyone?

Oneplusone - I can relate to a lot of the things you say about the relationship with your mother, different experiences you had that can't be compared to your siblings or other family members. I'm no expert but just going from my own tiny experience, accepting these differences is such a bitter pill to swallow. You could explain till you are blue in the face but the truth might be that no one in the family wants to know because then they need to 'take sides'. Maybe they would see you as a 'drama queen' or 'never happy' or 'trouble maker'. There was part of me that wanted to scream "but she done this" or "she done that" and to tell them all the terrible things so that they all could understand why I felt the way I do about my mother. I wanted everyone to see I wasn't the bad daughter and I tried in vain. I got so bogged down and entwined, it was eating me inside.

But, eventually, I gradually realised I was on my own. I said "well, you all know me as a person. I am a good person and if you want to be in my life, I am here - but, if you don't, then just go away and get on with your lives because that is what I am doing, with or without you all". I stopped the 'he said' 'she said' stuff and stopped responding to my mums sneaky jibes (a hate letter I received disguised as a birthday card so that I'd open it, anonymous emails etc), I stopped calling them and decided if my family (except my mother) wanted to make the effort with me, then they know my number. Needless to say, not a single call, not even one!

In the last 18 months I moved house 50 miles away and not one single member (except my dad) of my family even contacted me to ask about my house or my new life. I got married 5 months ago to the most wonderful guy ever and not one of them even called to tell me that they weren't coming to my wedding - and that was their last chance. It was embarrassing and heartbreaking. The only member of my family at my wedding was my dad. To be honest, if any of them had came to my wedding, there would have been hell for them to pay from my mum......but....that is not my problem. That is their problem.

Between moving house and getting married, I went thru millions of feelings of anger, hurt, loss and cried my eyes out God knows how many times. I have hardened myself to the situation and it was the only way for me personally to move on. The feeling of being wronged or not having justice was absolutely overwhelming at times. In the end I forced myself to accept the injustice, and I decided that the people who made me feel that way during two of the biggest events so far in my life, would never have the chance to do it again. I was emotionally wrecked. I forgive them in my heart but they won't be in my life again.

After said house move and wedding, I came back from honeymoon to a card from an Aunt saying she was dying to see the 'married couple' and could we go and collect our wedding present!!! Erm, excuse me!!! Wedding present, oh really!!! Nah, sorry, number one - you can't buy me and number two - you don't just ignore me for over a year and think you can just post yourself back into my life with a guilt card!! Hubby and I have not mentioned the card to anyone, ignore, ignore, ignore.

I'm not saying my way is for everyone at all. I guess I wanted to say that sometimes getting the justice you deserve is not possible. In my case, the hardest thing I did was to accept this 'injustice' and realise that others who have good relationships with my mother, will never see it my way and that is one of the shittest things - no proper closure.

Don't even get me started on narcissistic mothers/MILs......Jeez, I'll be here all night ranting like a banshee and already I have said WAyyyyyy too much....sorry

Hi there HolyG (love the name btw), I have quickly read through your posts and I understand exactly what you have been through and the way you feel as that is exactly how i feel. I am not sure yet whether i have been able to accept, like you, that some members of my family ie my sisters, will probably never be able to understand how i feel towards our parents. It hurts me a lot to know this, i feel it is a double whammy so to speak, not only have i lost out on having loving parents, but as a child i lost out on a close relationship with my sisters AND on top of all of that i have also lost out on a close adult relationship with my sisters. However much we all talk and get on now as adults, i know there will forever be a divide between us as we have such a huge difference in our feelings towards our parents.

I think the loss of a close adult relationship with my sisters is one of the things that i am finding hardest to come to terms with and accept. I suppose because it is just so unfair and unjust. I have done nothing to my sisters and so they in theory have no reason to have any bad feeling towards me. BUT i am sure they do have at least some resentment/anger/bitterness towards me simply because of my decision to cut off our parents. And as they still see our parents regularly they are constantly being exposed to my parents' 'victim act' (my mother in particular deserves an oscar for her performance as the victim over the years) and they have completely swallowed the whole idea of my parents as the victims (instead of me).

I completely agree with you that in order to find any sort of peace within myself about my relationship with my sisters i have to accept that their view of our parents is unlikely to ever change and they are unlikely to ever understand me but like you say it is a very bitter pill to swallow indeed. And i don't think i am quite there yet. I suppose what makes it harder is the reason why my sisters have hugely different feelings towards my parents. The reason being simply that they were not abused like i was by our dad and they were in no way neglected like i was by our mother. Yes, they both suffered a little bit of abuse from my dad but they had a genuinely close, loving and caring relationship with our mother. I always noticed when we were children how concerned she always was for my sisters' well being and safety etc and i always thought to myself at these times "What about me? Don't you care about me?" and i suppose somewhere inside i have always known the answer to that which is that my mother has never truly cared about me, not in the way a child needs her mother to care about her.

So, I suppose my sisters' continued closeness to my parents as adults is a constant reminder of just how different our childhoods were and what I alone missed out on. It is just so unfair, i was no different to my sisters, i was just a normal kid, just like them, but for some reason my dad decided i was to be his punching bag and also for some reason my mother was unable to truly love me. It's not fair, it's not fair, it's not fair.....perhaps if i keep saying it i will eventually come to accept it, but i'm not there yet.

It's also not fair how it's affected me as a parent. I have really struggled at times, especially with my DD, it's getting easier now but when she was first born i was in such a dark place. I know now this was entirely due to my own childhood traumas resurfacing, triggered somehow by the birth of DD. Compare my experience to that of my youngest sister, who was the least abused and most loved out of the 3 of us. She seems to be coping really well with motherhood, did not suffer any PND to speak of and seems to have bonded well and clearly loves and enjoys her DD who is now 6 months old. How you were mothered has a direct impact on how easy you find it to mother your own children and i have found it extremely hard with DD, almost impossible at times, purely because i had no experience as a baby and infant and child of feeling loved, wanted, understood and totally accepted by my own mother. It's not fair and nor is it fair that my DD has suffered because of my parents mistreatment of me.

There is so much injustice in all of this, in fact injustice is at the heart of it and is what makes it so hard to accept my fate so far. Every child is born innocent and helpless and no child deserves to be mistreated, EVERY child deserves and needs to be loved, it is not fair that a random child, who has done absolutely nothing wrong, is somehow singled out to be abused and neglected.

The whole thing is warped and skewed, the real victim is made to look like the bad guy. How to accept this? I just don't know.

HolyG, how were you able to accept the unfairness of it all? I constantly come up against this issue and it's one i haven't got to grips with yet. I want to though, i don't want to let it eat away at me, I am determined to get past it, i just don't know how.

AN, thank you for your posts. I think you are spot on in that i am feeling more and more of the emotions i repressed as a child. I'm glad you have 'cracked' the issue of your DH 'triggering' you, I'm not sure if i have yet, best to be 'on guard' i think and constantly evaluate my feelings and work out where they are coming from, past or present or both. Consciousness is the key i think, now that i have spotted this pattern with DH, i hope i won't get caught out by it again in future.

Last, but not least, I wanted to respond to HolyG about toxic parent(s) dying. I suppose i had a taste of how it would be recently when my sister phoned me in tears because our mother might have to have a heart bypass operation. I felt absolutely nothing when my sister was telling me about our mother, and i suspect it will be the same when our mother/father dies. I just feel nothing for either of them, and have been this way for years. The only difference is that now i am honest and true to myself about my feelings towards them, before i was always denying and suppressing my true feelings and pretending i cared about my parents. I will be relieved when my parents die, perhaps it will give me some sort of closure on my life as an abused child, i don't know. I will not be upset though, in my eyes, they died a long time ago, when i was 11, when the abuse first started.

Btw HolyG, i know you are in a better place right now than some months ago as you have said in your posts, but i thought i'd give you a big hug anyway, as it's always nice to recieve a hug and i can totally relate to how you were feeling not so long ago. ((((((((((hug))))))))))

Holy, I thought your post was brilliant, and I think you're on your way to the place where all of us are heading i.e acceptance of the injustice of it all, and recognition ( to ourselves) that that is the way it is and in order to enjoy our lives. It is only we who can change the way we behave.
I read on a website somewhere that you will never get justice, and they will never 'see' things from your point of view. A sibling or two may come round to seeing things your way in the future, if you're lucky, but the best you can hope for is a period of prolonged peace. This was really soothing to read. Because after being involved with a narcisstic mother who just won't let you be, it is really very soothing to be on your own, safe in the knowledge that no-one is actively out to destroy your happiness anymore. And I think that can be measured as 'success' in a way. A kind of justice for you.
As I child I always dreamed of running away to escape my mother. Then I became an adult and for some reason I kept coming back for more of her disgusting abuse. It was only after something inside me clicked that I really made the effort to escape her clutches, which took more mental strength than anything I've ever done (natural childbirth was a breeze in comparison!) Imagine if I'd never 'clicked'. Imagine all the poor sods out there who are in denial about their parents( like some of our siblings are!) and are still trying to please their NPD mothers or sexually abusive fathers. We were all lucky enough to have the insight to get out, but it was a close shave. We might never have made that break. And I think the fact we did, and that we can build our own lives now is in fact our justice.
i hope all that makes sense! There is an interesting saying: 'You can't feel the strength of the chains around your ankles until you try to move'. This sums up my situation exactly. ITs only when you try to break away that you realise how messed up the whole situation is.

Sakura - fantastic post! Absolutely spot on!

oneplusone - I don't really know 'exactly' how I came to accept the 'unfairness'? I think it was a mixture of many things. Knowing that if push came to shove, they would all take my mothers side. Knowing that no one would stand up for me. knowing that no one wanted to listen to me, feeling like I was a trouble maker. Knowing that the preference in my parents eyes would always be for my sister. The fact that meeting a great guy, buying a new house together and getting married could not even make them brave enough to stand up and say they were happy for me. People say you have to hit the bottom before you can come back up again and I think that is (unfortunately) true.

There have been many times where I wanted to just go mad with sheer hellbent frustration, shout loudly, cause a scene and tell them all how I feel/felt. And I mean REALLY go mad. It drove me crazy insane. Feeling angry at having to 'explain' my family/mother to others - things like "oh, does your mum like your new house?", "is your niece going to be a flower girl", "are you having your sister as a bridesmaid". Just how do you answer questions like that? Fearing that people I don't know well, will think I must be such a b*tch if I am estranged from my family. I had to learn how to 'ignore' instead of 'reacting' and that was a whole new experience for me but it works.

It was a combination of many things, heartache, misery, sadness and took a hell of a long time and if you're stubborn like me, the feelings are intensified. I have a feeling that when my mother does pass away, they will all come running and I will turn my back on them just like they have done. If my dad goes first, it is going to be hell - I won't have any say or be able to take part in his funeral, they will have another opportunity to publicly push me away and more opportunity for my mother to re-emphasis my perceived badness.

Another thing was that after meeting my now husband, I realised that this whole family thing could well ruin my relationship, my real chance for happiness - I couldn't risk that. I made the decision to have a 'normal marriage' (whatever that is ), to not let them destroy my chance for happiness that I never thought possible. I know hubby will support me, he is the ONLY person who truly understands everything about how I feel. Also, if he thought I was wrong, he would be the first to tell me, he is the only person who has my best interests at heart. I realise that I can't be this 'bad person' or he would not be with me. He had an excellent upbringing and could not believe that mothers like mine existed! Choosing a life with him was my chance to be the person I wanted to be. He is the first person I have ever trusted.

I am not a mother yet, but when I am, I am going to be the mother that my own mother wasn't to me. I read the stories on this thread and take them as eduction for my future, things to watch out for. On that note I thank everyone for writing about their experiences because it is so helpful and I know it is hard to be so honest and divulge the hurt to others.

Finally, accepting the injustice is a conscious decision, it doesn't just 'happen'. It is something you have to really choose to do and implement with all of your strength, but only at a time that is right for you, if and when you are ready.

Hugs back at ya

Hi, I have just been invited onto this thread. I have just posted on another thread. www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/659707-Traumatised-by-my-abusive-brother-and-dysfunctional-family -just-need (to avoid repeating here).

Anyone who had similar experiences, would be nice to talk. Thanks

Was confused by the thread title, I never got taken anywhere!

As far as I remember some parent (I think it was Ally's) said that because they took their child to Stately Homes they have done their best as a parent and it should basically make up for any wrong doings.

Hi Sakura and HolyG,
Thank you for your posts; they give a foundation of clarity that I think everyone ought to print out and read on a regular basis.

I do feel this peace you speak of, Sakura, since not speaking to Middle Sister for 8 months. I send her pithy emails about where I'll be for holidays and send simple gifts for b-day and Christmas in recognition that "We are sisters and I love her"...but I just need to not be around her. Those are my boundaries-I can not say when I'll see her again.

I have boiled down everything about our relationship (that you all have patiently read through over the past year-(((hugs)))) thank you) and simply put,

she degrades me.

It is all for her need for superiority-whether narcissistic or not (I think so ). That she degrades me is all I need to remember and watch out for if/when I ever do have direct contact with her again.

I was very nearly clinically, physically, of course emotionally, depressed. Yes, I could feel that my brain was slowing down-I was at the point of having to urge myself on to respond to things. Dystemic was my diagnosis-dumb down my expectations of life-a lower than normal base line of operation-pressed down (thus de-pressed).

I can only thank God (and DH ) for my new baby. At 46 being pg was a shock -and it was a surprise. But it brought me clarity about Middle Sister and instead of dreading or worring about post partum depression, I can say having this baby has brought me back to life. I feel so much better, so much more involved in my life...like I can participate without that constant cloud of ridicule/dismissiveness or analysis/evaluation of MS hanging over me.

I have processed through the guilt of putting myself first - for once. I could no longer sacrifice my mental health for the perpetual drama triangle game of "Happy Hockey Sticks". My husband needs me, my 3 children need me. Middle Sister does not need me; she will very easily move on to someone else for her superiority fix.

I am happy.
Thanks again, everyone.

I have so many issues I don't know where to begin, and this has always put me off from posting anywhere in the past, it would be so long! However, a while ago I posted on another thread about a specific incident, and a poster kindly told me about this thread, so I am now posting here.
About 15 years ago I was severly beaten by my brother. We were in our early 20s and both living at parents' house.

He was, and is, a very violent and aggressive person. He is 6ft 4 tall and very overweight, not sure how much but he is off the scale on a normal set of scales.

A row occurred when he tipped some water (on purpose) on some new make up I had bought. I got upset and the upshot was that he beat me, the worst part was me cowering in a corner next to a glass door being beaten with a chair. He was shouting that he would kill me. I was so scared, when it ended I ran out of the house and drove to the police station. I could barely drive because I was in such pain. When I got there it was closed so I rang a phone thing on the door, but lost my nerve and hung up when someone answered. I then drove to a petrol station and sat for hours crying in the car. I had nowhere else to go so eventually went home. I can't remember what happened but I wasn't hit again that night.

I am still scared of what he is capable of, but since that day(after a long period of not speaking to him at all) I now have an uneasy relationship where I either humour or ignore him.

My parents were there when he beat me but made only superficial efforts to intervene. My mother was very aggressive to me as well and would lose her temper, once when I was 11 she once put her hands around my throat and tried to strangle me.

Ironically I now get on best with my Dad, although when I was very small he was very violent as well, but only after losing his temper with my mother, and I think what he did was accidental, that is he didn't set out to hurt me, but would do things like push me over and I would hit my head on a fireplace.

I don't know what to do or where to go or if this is even worth doing anything about. But I feel very upset and down about my family background and want so badly not to make the same mistakes on my ds 17m as were inflicted on me.
I should add that my parents were very violent to each other, that is, they would physically fight, tearing each others' hair out. I disctinctly remember sitting on the floor watching this regularly. The dreadful thing was that we were made to feel we had to 'side' with one of them via manipulative comments. I know now, through talking to other people, that my childhood was not normal, but we never mixed with other children (apart from in class at school) so I never had expreience of what was normal in a young family.
I am still in contact with them. Because they were all I had, I never had any friends (was actively discouraged) and consequently felt (and still feel in some small way) kind of dependant/ scared (? struggling to define) to loose contact completely.

I was forbidden to have a boyfriend while I was at home. I was very isolated socially until a few years ago when I got married (following huge interference and disruption from them).They didn't attend the wedding. I feel so much anger towards my mother in particular, but this swings wildly to guilt sometimes, because I think she may be mentally ill. I know my relationship with/ about her is unhealthy. She is such a naive and irrational person. She herself has no friends and spies on neighbours (always has done) to get a 'life'. She then speculates wildly about what they are doing / thinking, this forms her conversation as she has nothing else to talk about! Listening/ talking to her in this way drives me insane. Her house is in a complete mess. She is incapable of making a decision about anything. My brother still lives at home. He is very highly qualified (2 degrees) but completely socially inept.

(Sorry this is so long, I know long posts are difficult to read.) Sigh..... there is so much more I could write....

You are already so different from your parents in that you don't have fist fights with your dh.

Also because you are aware that what they did was wrong (huge step) and that you don't want your own ds to grow up in the same kind of environment that you did.

Giving birth to a child does not automatically give you the right to hit, kick, or in any other way abuse said child.

Haven't been back here for a few days but wanted to thank ActingNormal for kind words and to everyone for support. I am still in the market for any advice regarding being the 'supporting partner' in situations such as your own. I read your posts with sadness but also great admiration of the way in which you write (and often so poetically too). I think the quotes you post are often so helpful and comforting.

My DH is still struggling a lot, very up and down. I am running low on ideas of 'the best things to do' to help and it's starting to get to me more than it did - I'm feeling almost unable to help and that breaks my heart. He is relucatant to talk at the moment, saying he doesn't feel ready, and the same goes for my suggestions of diary/letter (sent or unsent) writing. He will talk to me about not talking, if you see what I mean. I suggested that he might only feel ready to talk when he starts to talk, but he wasn't convinced. Am I right to encourage him to talk or should I let him adjust internally and tell me when he feels ready? Am so scared he will bottle it up and just surpress it all until it starts to feel normal to feel that way.

ilovejonty I have just read the thread you linked to and agree with people there, and also with more - in my experience being aware and being sure you don't want to behave in that way is the biggest thing you could do to make sure it doesn't happen. I feel that if you are conscious of what you want to avoid, you will make sure you will avoid it. Perhaps the key is to learn to trust yourself to keep being conscious of it, and relax into a feeling of knowing it's being 'taken care of'. Does that make sense? Am struggling to get the right words out of my brain tonight!

Grin - just being there and being supportive is the best thing that you can do. Just listening, being understanding, asking him how he is feeling, just him knowing that you are on his side and he can trust you. That helped me a lot and it sounds like you are doing all the right things Some things that work for one person might not work for another, it is all so personal and it all needs to be handled if and when the time is right for him.

It is so sad to read peoples experiences on here but at the same time, it is a true sign of healing and inspirational that people can put their experiences into words. It is superb that there is a place for people to come and share their stories and to realise that there can be light at the end of the tunnel once you start to unload all the feelings and see that you are not alone. Things can get better and they will get better - you just have to let yourself believe it. Do whatever it takes to find that elusive calm and happiness because it is out there.

Hats off to you all on here

ILoveJonty, I agree with the others, I don't think you will treat your children the way you were treated because you are so aware of it and have talked about it (which puts it into your conscious thoughts rather than staying in your subconscious).

You know I was blithering on about triggers a while back, well I wasn't triggered for a while and I think it is because I became so much more aware that things were triggers. Then I got tired from staying up too late etc and started to get triggered by things more again. This just seems to prove that tiredness really makes things worse and it is so important to get enough sleep/rest and look after ourselves. Some days I've felt I was too tired to do my job as a mother properly and I had done wrong to not look after myself properly so I could look after them.

It is mainly DD who triggers me. Acting ungrateful and spoilt does it and trying to get more attention than DS does it, and pushing her way in when DS is getting some attention. I had a realisation the other day which is really obvious and everybody else probably knows it, that these behaviours are NORMAL for a 5 year old. This thought really helps me. I've been putting a more 'adult' meaning onto her behaviour I think.

I felt she should be grateful because I would have been grateful to get a fraction of the emotional input that she gets when I was a child. I felt that she should really feel for her younger brother and how could she take the attention away from him and make him feel less important than her - but children her age just don't think like this do they! She isn't secretly bullying DS and being horrible to him for getting attention from his parents and saying I hate you because I think they love you more than me. She is not my bro! And children her age aren't developed enough to be grateful. Also she shouldn't have to be grateful because the good things she gets are what all children deserve! And I deserved it too whether I got it or not! This thought makes me feel better. It hadn't occurred to me before that I deserved these things as much as anyone else. Another obvious thing everybody knows but I just didn't 'get'. I'm wondering if I'm a bit thick

Also about gratefulness, they don't seem grateful now but when they are adults they will be grateful that they were brought up with love and respect rather than feeling the way most of us on here feel about our parents! The thought that when they are adult they could remember me as being moody, irritable, always too 'busy' to spend time with them, distracted, distanced, preoccupied and cold really makes me think I have got to make the effort and do it properly. I'm so much better at it than I was after all the therapy but still have the odd day when I feel I slip back into being crap again. These days scare me. I'm scared that what if it isn't just a little blip and what if I get sucked into being crap again and can't 'get out'.

I think these thoughts followed on from visualising the children as tiger cubs frolicking around or small dogs jumping about and yapping with overexcitement. For some reason visualising these things when the kids are being wild or 'talking too much/too loud' seems to calm me down! I think I realised I was expecting too much of them quite often when they are children and have a lot less self control than adults, (like animals).

They have to be taught how to behave appropriately so as to get along with people and not annoy them - how to do this rather than just don't do this and don't do that. I am on their side, explaining that other people will find these behaviours annoying so they need to learn how to do an alternative thing in order to get along in the world, but feeling that I will still love them whatever they do. When I see myself as a teacher rather than a 'discipliner' (is that a word?) I feel calmer and their bad behaviour seems more like an opportunity to teach them something rather than something to make me angry. They are NOT TRYING to make me feel the way my family made me feel!

Maybe I've posted this in the wrong place, but I feel the way I am with the DCs is so wrapped up in my left over feelings from my childhood.

I keep trying to write a post about my family but every time I write anything explicit about what happened and some of the things my mother has said to me, I suddenly can't believe how utterly despiccably awful it is and I wonder why I continue to play the dutiful daughter part at my own emotional cost.

What makes it so difficult for me is that my family are outwardly very successful, famous in their fields of work and admired for their happy loving family, so if I try to talk about what has happened to me, I am looked upon as unhinged and mad. But the opposite is true.

If writing it makes you see it for what it was I think it is a really really good thing! You can't get over it until you realise how bad it was. I know what you mean about feeling like you are 'mad' because who would believe these highly respectable people would ever do anything bad. This makes it so much worse because the whole thing is so 'behind closed doors'. Just because somebody had a respectable image or money or is intelligent does not mean they cannot be/or have been abusers. We will all believe you on here and know that you are not mad.

HolyGuac - thank you, I will carry on reminding him I am here when he needs me, giving him cuddles and telling him how fab he is. And hopefully when he is ready to talk he will know that I'm here. Last night he did talk to me about why he wasn't ready to talk (which I sort of class as talking about it!) so I already feel better.

(ActingNormal - I really enjoyed reading your post! I love the image of the tiger cubs, and you're right, seeing children like that gives them the space to be children whilst lessening stress levels for adults! When you said about being teacher rather than discipliner, I think the major difference there is that you are they are on the same side, part of the same team.)

AN thank you for your wonderful post, it has helped me so much in relation to my DC's. I think we have both had similar issues wrt our DC's, especially DD, so I always read with great interest when you post about your DC's (and your other posts too of course!).

jonty, well done for posting and don't feel afraid that you are writing too much; in fact there is a prize on this thread for whoever can write the longest post, so go for it! Writing and getting your feelings out, your deepest fears and worst thoughts without being judged is so theraputic.

Eleanor, I think how you feel applies to many of us. I still break down into tears sometimes when i think of the things i have been through with my father, mother and sisters. But the more you write, think and talk about it, the less impact it has on you and that is a sign of healing. And the fact that your family are outwardly 'normal' is true of mine, my family all deserve oscars for their superb portrayal of a normal, happy, loving family, when in fact nothing could be farther from the truth.. If you haven't already done so, i would recommend you read some books such as Toxic Parents by Susan Forward.

I have been having some dreams recently. I only seem to have them when i have a lie in, i think getting woken at around 6am like i usually do by DS is what stops me dreaming more often, as i think dreams occur during a particular phase in the sleep cycle and i always get woken up before i reach that phase. It's a shame as i am sure my dreams play an important part in the healing process. I am sure that what is important is not really the content of the dream but how it makes you feel.

The one i had today made me feel worried, anxious, scared and fearful. And it's not surprising i had such a dream as i have been thinking lately about how i must have constantly felt anxious and worried and fearful as a child, once my dad started abusing me. I knew once the abuse started that i was on my own, although i suppose this knowledge was subconscious really. I knew my dad no longer cared about me as he had once done and in fact that he hated me, although this knowledge i suppose must have gradually become apparent to me, over months and years as the abuse continued. And i knew my mother was a weak, coward who i could not rely on for help, support, comfort or protection. So i was on my own. And i have recently begun to notice through my DC's that a lot of the time children are fearful and anxious. They do not understand the world as adults do and to them the world is a scary place and they need the reassuring, caring, loving, protective presence of their parents to make them feel safe and secure. Whilst i had my parents there physically, their presence in no way made me feel safe or secure, all my worries and fears were still with me as i knew i couldn't share them with my parents. I must have repressed my feelings of anxiety and fear as a child, as they would have been too great for me to cope with when i was so young but i think i felt some of my childhood fear and worry in my dream today. For me this is a good sign, and more evidence that my 'numbness' is gradually thawing; i was worried for a while and still am a bit that too much damage was done to me as a child for me to heal and recover from and that some of my feelings will be lost forever, too deeply and tightly buried and repressed to be recovered.

Another dream i had a while ago made me realise just how almost every single person in my life and particularly those who supposedly should know me best, ie family and close long term friends, do not know me at all/ I think this is partly because my true self had to hide away deep inside when the abuse started in order to survive and in her place my false self was apparent and this is the one everyone around me saw and evidently judged, disliked, exploited. Also because my self esteem was so damaged by the abuse that i was never able to stand up for myself and assert my true selr, i was a prime target for other people to project their own negative thoughts and feelings onto as i was unable to resist or reject other people's negativity. Instead i took it all on board and releived the other person of their burden and they saw in me all the parts of themselves they disliked. Only neither i nor they realised that this is what was happening so they truly beleieved i was this awful person and so did I.

My radar was so damaged that i was unable to detect that i have been surrounded with toxic people all these years. It is only recently that i am starting to recognise that so many of the people in my life are toxic and that i am not the person they all think i am. My true qualities have been completely ignored, overlooked, misunderstood. But's it's more than that, it's the whole of me that has simply not been seen at all. No wonder i have this constant feeling that nobody ie my 2 sisters, my close 'friends', ny DH, none of these people seem to really know me or appreciate who I am; instead they are all projecting their own negative traits onto me and see me as a person with those traits instead of seeing who i really am.

Some examples are my youngest sister saying years ago that i was always showing off about something or other. I remember when she told me that and i was genuinely shocked and surprised and hurt that she thought that. As i know i had never showed off about the thing she had mentioned; but i think now she was jealous of my success at something and couldn't cope with her feelings of jealousy and so instead projected them onto me and told me i was showing off when i wasn't at all.

My middle sister i think has also been jealous of me about various things and again instead of dealing with her own jealous feelings she has projected them onto me and made me feel bad about eg buying a new (secondhand) car when i had nothing to feel bad about, as i had bought it with my own hard earned money.

A 'friend' of mine was jealous that i was a SAHM and didn't have to go out to work as she saw it; she is single and has no children so she has no idea just how hard work it is to be a SAHM, she clearly thought i was sitting around on the sofa all day drinking cups of tea and watching day time tv whilst she had to go out to work and again she also couldn't cope with her jealousy and told me i was smug about being a SAHM. Again i could never be smug about it as i find it extremely hard and not always enjoyable as i'm sure many of my posts on here show.

It seems all these people have completely misread me and misjudged me and have always chosen to think the worst of me if there was any doubt on the matter. And for years i thought i was this 'bad' person they all thought i was and yet i also knew somehow that i wasn't who they thought i was and i was always so hurt shocked and surprised when it became apparent to me what these people thought of me. Anyway, i have a choice now and i am definately going to make much wiser choices than i have in the past about the sort of people i want to have in my life.

Gosh i am really rambling now, am finding hard to explain what i mean, i will not be in the least bit surprised if nobody has the foggiest idea what i'm talking about. It has helped just to be able to get some of this out of my head. Thanks to anyone who has read so far.

oneplusone, everything you wrote there about projection was very interesting. I suppose the ultimate projection is onto children (by parents) which is where the 'poison container' analogy comes in. I feel a lot of what you mention, about not really being seen. I think I mentioned that my DH doesn't really see me, he only sees 'a wife'.

I think as you heal and start to develop your sense of self more, this holding other people's negativity can be overcome.

DH sees the messy house and my disorganisation among other things and that has become my identity since we were married (i.e a crap housewife!) But for about 5 months or so now I've started translating poetry and literature, something that requires a lot of sensitivity, and my sense of self worth is coming back. AS you say there is this whole other side of me that was totally ignored by my parents. I was an 'over-reactor' because I was so hyper-sensitive that I cried at the drop of a hat. The stupid idiots didn't realise that sensitivity can be a good thing. That yes, I am sensitive, but why did that have to be squashed and stamped out, as though I was born faulty? My sensitivity meant I just couldn'T handle the abuse at all. I would flip, freak out, self harm, drink myself into stupors. I'm sure they hated seeing my reaction to their behaviour because it meant I wasn't really doing a very good job of 'containing' their negativity.

I can very much identify with the "poison container" idea. My parents divorced when I was about 1 - mother later remarried somebody very straightlaced compared to our previous hippy bohemian artists life, and it seems to me looking back that all the struggles between my mother and stepfather in terms of her past life were played out in me. Whenever there was a problem, it was always somehow related to me. As if I was the way I was because of my own natural born character faults, and nothing at all to do with being neglectedly brought up in a hippy commune where there was no discipline or structure (and that my mother was actually still like that too). In what way is an 8 year old child held responsible when her mother is not? It seems crazy now.

I remember my mother angrily saying to me that by "acting up" I was making her choose between me and my stepfather, and that she would choose him. Of course she would. I remember actually wishing she would go ahead and "put me into care" as she used to say she was going to have to do. Home was not home. There was no comfort there.

I have been in and out of therapy for years, the outward reason being that I was sexually abused by my mothers father. However, I have hardly talked about that because it has taken me years to get to the point where I can cope with keeping my mother and stepfather at arms length instead of allowing their invasive controlling intrusions. Whenever I try to talk about it with my mother and her role in what happened, she gets really angry and last time she said something along the lines of "It seems every time you talk about it with your therapist you get really angry with me". I did say to her, look I've never really discussed it yet because I'm too busy dealing with all the other crap from you.

But honestly, if your father had drunkenly made a pass at you when you were in your teens, would you send your troubled teenage daughter to stay with him when he offered to look after her for you? She must have known at some level. She later said that one time she didn't want to leave my brother alone with him on holiday once...but of course, fine for me. Constant sacrificing of me to her own needs.

I feel so incandescent with rage that all the things that I supposedly did out of sheer wickedness have been discussed with all our family friends over the years. Imagine sitting at the dinner table with a load of people that think you're a liar and a wastrel and a trouble causer to your parents, without knowing the actual truth about what happened? That most of that behaviour was that of a deeply disturbed and abused individual?