"But we took you to stately homes" - Part 4

[oneplusone]

Can't beleive we're onto part 4, although i can't see this thread ever dying.

I was just reading through past posts to try and catch up on the months i have missed and something somebody said has triggered something for me. I know my mother didn't bond with me or love me and i think part of the reason why was because she thought i took after my dad whom she hates (although she is too gutless to leave him). I remember when i was young her saying things like my hair was like my dad's but she wouldn't say it an affectionate way, but quite a venomous way and it always made me feel uncomfortable when she said that but i must have been too young to figure out why.

The more i realise about my mother the more i despise and hate her. I remember she used to play hide and seek with me when i was very young, about 3. Only she would 'really' hide in a place i would never be able to find her. I remember crying and feeling completely distressed one time as i thought she had gone and left me alone at home. It was only after i had been crying for some time that she jumped out laughing from her hiding place. What a nasty, cruel, ugly piece of work and she parades around looking as if butter wouldn't melt and she has a lot of people fooled including my 2 sisters. I know my dad can see her for what she is which is why she hates him and i can see her true colours too which is why i hate her.

I know inside she is deeply insecure, lacks intelligence, strength and integrity. I have witnessed her lie, manipulate and cheat to get what she wants and the people to whom she lies and those who she manipulates are us, her own family. I just can't beleive my sisters cannot see through her, they are totally blind and deaf to her true character and have completely fallen for the victim role she has carved out for herself.

Cutting off my parents was the best thing i ever did and i have realised i need to set some boundaries with my sisters, my last remaining friend and even DH. How to do that is another thing, something completely new to me.

ActingNormal, AGain I think your posts have a lot of insight and you are so conciously trying to be a good parent. This shows up so much in everything you say.

Oneplusone, I know where you are coming from re your DH. I think the death knell in my love for him came shortly after DD was born and things were said that made it clear he didn't have the same moral guidelines as I did. FOr example, my previous boyf was from the middle-east, I was with him for 4 years and it was very serious. I always knew with him that there was an undercurrent of morality, for example if we were to ever divorce, we would both have put the kids first etc. My ex had a certain... integrity, even though he was abusive in other ways.
But with DH, I feel sure that if his mother told him to fight for custody of DD in a divorce, he would do so without thinking twice.
And the sad thing is, I would never just up and leave with DD because I have the integrity to realise that he and DD adore each other and I wouldn't want to tear her away from her daddy...
So its a one-way street here. I have pushed the reality of this to the side and I am making do. I do think DH has his good points, I really do, but I can't love him at that deeper level. Also, like yours, he brings up things in arguments later, not just the serious things like my family 'madness', but also simple things. For example he'll say 'Yes, go ahead, have lunch with your friends' and he'll make it sound really inviting. So I'll have lunch with my 'mum' friends and our kids in a nice hotel or something. Then weeks later he'll bring it up that this is the reason we don't have much disposable income. BEcause I'm frittering away money. I just can't trust him!

AN and Danae, thank you for your kind words and the hug, sometimes I feel the only support i get is from all of you, and it means a lot to me. Thank you.

Sakura, I have always thought highly of your posts, and i understand what you mean about people in RL not appreciating your qualities.....I feel the same.

I feel a lot better today, just being able to post the other day helped a lot. I think I should start keeping a daily journal like some of you have mentioned, just getting my thoughts and feelings out is so theraputic.

I am stressed about my PIL coming over at the weekend. I dislike or should I say hate them intensely and i am dreading having to be fake with them at the weekend and act normal and nice, when i would rather just ignore them. I think all the years, or decades should I say of having to try and be nice to my parents when really i hated them has had an effect, I simply cannot bear the thought of having to pretend anymore, for anyone. If i have to pretend to like someone, then really i shouldn't have them in my life but it would be impossible to cut off my PIL. I minimise contact as much as possible, but some contact is inevitable.

I have been trying to think of ways of being out of the house when they come, but they are actually coming to bring back DD who has been staying with them for half term so as I want to see her, I will have to stick around and endure an afternoon with them.

It's not even as if they are unpleasant, after my 'showdown' with MIL, she seems to be keeping her mouth shut around me, but i still hate and despise her for the way she has behaved in the past. And in the past i also had some respect for FIL, but i acutally think now and DH has more or less confirmed that he thinks exactly the same way as MIL but he keeps quite about it whereas she is their 'mouthpiece' and does all their dirty work.

And my mother called me today, i wouldn't have answered it but i was driving and didn't look at the number (shouldn't actually have answered at all, i know) but i immediately hung up as soon as i heard her voice. I am fed of her or my dad contacting me when i have asked them very politely but firmly not to. I don't really know what to do now, write another letter? I'm sure she thinks because she now has this heart condition i will come running to be at her bedside. But i really don't care if she dies, in my eyes, she died a long time ago, as i have never felt i had a mother. She certainly wasn't there for me when i was being abused by my dad so why she thinks i would want her around now is a mystery.

Sakura, i really sympathise with you in relation to your DH. I know how you feel. I think we may be i similar 'boats' ie we can put up with the situation as it is not abusive as such and there are good points about our DH's, but that 'emotional connection' is missing from our relationship and i think eventually it will be something i need and crave. Am not sure what will happen when it gets to that stage, hopefully in the meantime i will make some good friends (girlfriends) with whom i feel connected and that will satisfy that need in me. Or perhaps i may find some like minded work colleagues, i am thinking about what sort of work i want to do once the kids are both in full time school and am veering towards helping children, perhaps as a child psychologist. I hope i can fulfill the potential i seemed to have as a child, i don't think it has been lost, it just needs to be revived from it's coma.

Its wierd coming across this thread - I have moved on so much since doing the Hoffman Process (plug,plug it really can change your life). My relationship with my parents is so much simpler, I don't expect anything much from them and don't carry around all the hate and loathing that I have been carrying about since my childhood. As I expect less, they have actually given more emotionally and more support.

It is still an ongoing process and I have some current issues mostly about DH (who also did the Hoffman and now has a relationship with his mum who walked out when he was 12 - he has forgiven her!!).

Our relationship has got a lot better, less rows, better communication but our sex life has dwindled to nothing. It is like all my hate and loathing to my parents was tied up in my sexual relations. Now that is released I don't really have a model for how to be intimate with someone so have just switched off .

I have also reliased that my parents provided no emotional education for me and I have struggled all my life with human relationships. Now I am trying to put those messages in to kids - its a long hard slog because they had 7 & 5 years respectively of unemotional mum. But that lack of emotional education I think is also part of the problem with DH.

I can't remember all your stories but recognise the names. Hope you are all well and continuing on your own personal journey's - a life without the bitterness makes life much easier and gives you more space for yourself

OnePlusOne, good luck at the weekend. I know just what you mean about really not wanting to pretend you feel ok with people you don't feel ok with ever again having done it for so many years. I get really angry if I have to go through anything in any way remotely similar in how it feels to things that happened during childhood as I feel I've had my 'fair share' and now deserve my life to be 'perfect'. I kept getting so angry though.

Then I was influenced by Dave Pelzer's book, Moving On and decided that it was unrealistic to expect to feel nothing remotely like that ever again but keep telling myself that it will NOT ever be anything like as bad as it was, I HAVE escaped it and have more power now to protect myself. In his book he said something like, sometimes you will stumble along and step in a turd, there are turds everywhere, but you should just kick it away and carry on without thinking about it too much. Try to detect turds and jump over them and dodge lumps of shit that fall from the sky, but if shit does fall into your life, just shovel it away and pay no attention to it. This shit is there for everyone to dodge but some people attract more of it with their negativity. This is normal small pieces of shit, but some unlucky people, not everybody had a big truckload of shit dumped on them in the past which they find hard to fight their way out of. They need to get professional help to get rid of that massive turd but once it is gone they will still then have to dodge the little bits of shit like everyone else.

Could your PIL's visit be described as one of these little shits to be just scraped of your shoe and forgotten?

I think the problem is that these smaller things are not as small as they seem because they are all triggers. But if you are being triggered all the time this must show that you still have lots of that lorryload of shit in your life and still need help getting rid of it.

Kaz, I used to think I wanted to forgive people and harbour no bitterness but I just don't feel that would be healthy or natural for me. Why should I forgive them? Why do they deserve that? I agree with what you said about not expecting anything from them and then not being disappointed. I'm just thinking about the people who hurt me "F*ck you, you are nothing to me, my revenge is that you are not important in my life even if you want to be, I can't even be bothered to spend much time thinking about you because if I'd done the things you've done I would feel worthless, therefore you are worthless and I'm not going to waste my time on you when my DH and DCs are much more deserving of my attention".

I sometimes feel guilty and think I should consider their feelings and try to help them in some way, but then I think f*ck it, did they ever give much thought to my feelings - NO. Did they ever do anything to try to protect me or make me feel better - NO, and it was their JOB to do that. It is not the child's job to look after the adult anyway and why would I do that for them after the way they have treated me. I do feel some need for revenge however wrong that might be, but I think my revenge is the fact that they know I think they failed and that they damaged our relationship irreparably (told them this) and if they hadn't been so crap I would have more contact with them. These 'bitter' thoughts actually make me feel better!

Hi guys.

It is sad in a way that I have no RL friends when I am feeling so very low and have to come on line. So glad you are hear to listent though. Not sure what I would do otherwise.

What has struck me as I read some posts is that people can have ussues with their parents even when they have lived with them their whole childhood. I though some of my problems were because I didn't have a parent and clearly that wouldn't have meant no problems.

AN, thank you for your support and it helps to know you understand how i feel about having to 'act nice'.

The PIL visit went fine, they didn't stay for long which helped. And MIL seems to have 'miraculously' been able to watch her vicious tongue recently. DH thinks this means everything is fine now and i no longer have reason to hate his mother. How wrong can a person be? I hate her even more now. Because she has shown she is now able to stop being catty and nasty to me, it proves that before when she was being a complete bitch, it wasn't through innocent tactlessness or inadvertence but was deliberate. The only difference now is that she knows she can no longer get away with being a bitch to me so she has stopped. Or she risks being cut off from her son and grandchildren. I have even more contempt for her now than ever before and am so glad i only see her very infrequently.

She is also such an unbearable snob, i just can't stand it. I really need to think of some 'lines' to throw at her next time i see her.

Sadly, i can see a lot of her in DH. I really feel right now that emotionally, our relationship is over. I know i feel nothing for him and i'm rapidly losing whatever respect for him that i did have at one time. He is a good provider and dad and that's about it. I have found him to be hard hearted, selfish and disloyal and i cannot love somebody like that. He only seems to have people in his life if they can do something for him, ie if they are useful to him in some way and i am sure i was chosen in that way. He cannot seem to like me or love me just for 'me' only for what i can do for him. And I am sure he has always been like this from what his parents have said, of course they have never put it in such terms but i have gathered as much from little snippets of information they disclose.

I am going to have to write another note to my parents not to contact me. I don't know why they have suddenly started trying to contact me. Well it's since i told my sisters i thought they should have apologised for the way they treated me. But of course i meant they should have apologised 27 years ago, it's far too late now and they haven't actually apologised anyway, they just claim to have no idea how i have been feeling all these years or why.

I saw my therapist on Friday. I said that i felt i was able to talk about the most traumatic incidents involving my dad which i had previously always tried to avoid talking about. She seemed to understand and i feel reassured that i will have a 'safe' place to go and talk about these incidents. I don't feel as scared as i was to think about them, but sometimes i imagine DD going through what i went through and i always stop myself as it is just too awful to even contemplate her experiencing anything even a fraction of what i experienced. And yet for me it was a reality, not just in my imagination. I guess i am still a little way off from actually 'feeling' the emotions i felt at the time and 'integrating' them. I hope that being able to do feel the most painful feelings i have kept locked away will mark a turning point in my journey and that i will then be able to start looking forward a bit more.

AN, i like your description of my PIL as little shits who just need to be kicked out of my way. It's perfect. I will always think of them in this way from now on.

And i completely agree with and relate to the last 2 paragraphs of your post of 31 oct 16:56. I also want revenge and think 'bitter' thoughts and it makes me feel better. I think it is natural, normal and indeed healthy to feel this way about people who have hurt and betrayed you so deeply. It shows you have a healthy level of self esteem and that you do not beleive you deserve to be treated badly.

And i agree that 'wrongdoers' need to do something to 'earn' our forgiveness. They need to show remorse, sorrow and take steps to rebuild the broken trust in the relationship. The onus is completely on them. They cannot simply ask for/expect forgiveness automatically or as of right. My parents have certainly done nothing to deserve forgiveness and have not shown any real or genuine remorse or even understanding about the impact their assaults/neglect had on me. They have shown that to this day they are still only thinking about themselves and their own feelings and i know they will never change and i certainly have no intention of ever seeing them again for as long as i live.

Can't type much now because I feel tired and my brain feels scrambled from posts elsewhere, but I wanted to say OnePlusOne I feel 'relieved' that you are back in therapy and feel pleased for you that you sound strong when you say your PIL know they can't get away with talking to you horribly any more. You sound like you are generally a bit 'clearer' about your thoughts on things. It does sound like you unconsciously gravitated towards a H who reminded you of aspects of your family because we unconsciously gravitate towards the familiar.

You will have to excuse me if this is scrambled but Im just going to type and see what comes up.

I saw my family this weekend. First time in a year. Yesterday was a bad day as a result. I felt very depressed.

On the flip side though it is easier to deal with this as now I know where the feelings come from.
In the past I would blame it on the incident that triggered my feelings or blame it on myself for justy being born 'miserable'.

Yesterday I told myself I was bound to feel sad. After all the weekend was a coinfirmation of the 'reality' that is my family. A year has not changed them (did I expect it to?).

I have to accept it all now. So I am entitled to 'feel' my sadness and grief. And so I did. I let it wash over me. Took a nap with dd in the afternoon. Watched crap t.v. Just let the bad feelings be.

Today I feel better but there is still a lot of sadness to deal with.

The weekend has brought up the sheer depth of my emotional neglect and my isolation within a large family unit. But like TMSB said that was then and this is now. I look and my own family unit. The one I have chosen, one I have created and I feel warmth, love...a huge amount of love from them.

My mother flounced past me at my brothers house. She actually 'flounced'. It was like watching a teenager or school child in the yard.
I spent most of the two 'painful' hours spent at the 'family' party on the saturday evening in a seperate room. I was holding dd in my arms and she flounced in and said 'are these finished?', gesticulating at the two bowls of food behind me and dh.
She did not interact with ds at all.

But the most emotional pain came from my father's presence. For ages I could see the back of him, and I felt physically sick.
I wanted to hug him and apologise to him? I realise how much this mans neglect of me still affects me. His leaving me when I was small killed my self esteem. He then continued to smash it down by never having any time for me and constantly threatening to leave us all.
I also realised his first love is money (as Ive stated before), his second is booze, and his third is my mother.

I am and always have been way down on the list. I have emulated time and again my relationship with my father with other men (boyfriends). Always falling for the emotionally unobtainable and reading into the tiniest of gestures that they do infact 'love' or 'want' me. Making excuses for their bad behaviours or complete indifference to me. I'd forgive this kind of man over and over again. It was as if I though by 'making' a man such as this fall in love with me I could fill the void within. All it did was increase the void.
The problem was not me. Was not my uloveableness or my lack of importance. It was the men that I chose to date and their inability to 'love' or have any kind of 'intimacy'. Just like my father.

So I was disapointed that the side of me that still desperately seeks my dad's love and approval came out.
He walked into the room and I could feel my face light up. Showed him dd and he held her. (he always wanted a gd). As if to say 'here' do you love me now? Am I good enough now?.

BUt old habits and scripts are hard to break aren't they.

The realisation of what my father really is came when he said, "I am going back to my beer now' and left the room.
It came again the following day when he held dd and took her to my mother so she could hold her.
And again when he said "well, mind how you go!' And left.
He was leaving early but coming back later to go down the pub with sil's father.
Yep my childhood hero, is a rather elderley gentleman with ruddy skin, and an overly keen interest in beer and money. He is damaged goods and will never change.
He will always choose my mother over me.

I look at Sil's family. All so loving and so foccussed on SIL. Supporting her, being at her gathering without question. Travelling many miles to do so. I feel jealous and I feel my loss at what I never had.

I got to see younger db for the first time in a very long time and his little boy. His wife asked me 'Do you smack?". My mother was in the room and I said confidently 'No we dont'.
I could barely contain myself when I actually heard the words, during the discussion that ensued, 'It never did me any harm.'. My four siblings were all sat with their partners and children in the same room (a rareity) and did not interact at all with our mother. In fact two of us have had no contact with her for 3 years between us.
But of course It never did any of us any harm.
Thank god I 'do' have insight.

AN thank you for your post. I am touched that you feel relieved that I am back in therapy. In RL, i don't think anyone gives two hoots whether i am in therapy or not and why i might need therapy.

I think you're right, i do feel clearer in my mind about things. But i do still have moments when i feel sorry for my dad for the way he was let down by my mother when he had his mental breakdown. Because she did nothing to help him, my relationship with him was ruined, broken and irrepairably damaged. But then i always stop short of feeling any real sympathy for him because even after he had somewhat 'recovered' from his mental breakdown, he was unbeleivably cruel to me in many ways, right up until the day i finally decided to 'divorce' my parents. Neither he nor I can blame his later cruelty on his mental breakdown; it was just deliberate and intentional cruelty, to save his own skin in preference to mine. Knowing that and writing it down here should make me feel incredible pain, but it doesn't. I feel numb. Which means I still have a long way to go before i can say that i am largely recovered and healed from my childhood traumas.

I am starting to realise that i have hugely underestimated the degree of trauma i went through. Because for so long i have been unable to really 'explore' the incident with my dad when i was 11 and investiate the feelings it must have caused at the time, because i have always tried to avoid looking at that incident and have instead focussed on lots of other far less signifiant incidents, i have felt that what i went through wasn't really that bad. (Now, where have i heard that phrase before? )

But it is slowly starting to dawn on me that due to the 'incident' I suffered an absolutely huge and enormous trauma. And it was not just that one incident, there were many, many, many other incidents, as well as just a general atmosphere of hatred and anger that was always tangible in our house. I remember during arguments with my dad i would sometimes say "I know you hate me" and my dad would never deny it. My counsellor said i would have said that wanting my dad to say "no, that's not true, i love you," and i know she is right although i had no idea at the time that this is what i was hoping for. Of course he never did say that he loved me.

How does one 'get over' 27 years of emotional abuse/neglect/abandonment and verbal assaults? And the abuse only stopped because I cut off my parents. If i hadn't done that, it would still be continuing today. I absolutely shudder at the thought of that. There's a story in Alice Miller's The Drama that i never reall understood called 'The Boy with the Golden Brain'. But i think i do understand now. The boy in the story was only wanted and even needed by his parents because they wanted to exploit him and use him for their own ends. His parents only ever 'took' from him and never gave him anything of themselves. And that is my story too, my parents have only ever wanted me so they could use me to vent their unwanted feelings on, they never wanted me for 'me', they never even bothered to get to know me and to this day they have no idea who i really am. My dad has always used me as his scapegoat and projected his own dark feelings onto me. He sees me as a selfish, manipulative, underhand, conniving, 'operator' type of person. When in fact, that description suits him perfectly.

I honestly feel like i have 'escaped' from a 'house of horrors'. And my parents seem to think that i would be willing to come back there for some reason. It just shows they have absolutely no comprehension of what i have suffered and they never will. I am going to have to write them yet another letter telling them to leave me alone. If they still try and contact me after that i am going to see a solicitor and see if anything can be done legally to keep them away from me.

Hi all, I'm back briefly...(yes disapeared for time being to concentrate on being pg )

Well...been for 20 wk scan today all good, have to go back as baby was not coming out to play...saw alot of spine and side profile! So got to go and let the ultrasoundest person get a good pic of heart and baby!

Scary bit of news...baby is a girl...happy but worried...again...last time I worried as I did not want to recreate mother/dd bond like my mother and my relationship, this time I'm worried as I don't want to recreate the drama triangle that was my mother/sister/me. I know I'm different to my mother. I know I parent differently. But you know that fear is just there. It will be different in this generation, because I would never stand by and see any teasing and bullying going on without immediately intervening, or god forbid, joining in with it as my mother did. But parenting gets harder with two, I'm fearing that I will get more stressed and deal badly with any teasing and become unreasonably angry as it hits my childhood 'buttons'. Need some good coping routines. Deep breath before saying anything. Double think anything I do ie am I being emotional or logical? Stay calm and not fly off handle...any others people?

Sakura, how are you going? Been for your 12 wk scan? Any ms? When do you think you will tell dd we got the book 'a house in mummy' to explain to dd what was going on. She loves it. Also runs various items over my tummy to 'shushing' noises for the heartbeat

Smithfield ((((((hugs)))))))) for seeing your family...you were very brave to go. And they clearly have the problems, you have problems with insight which is priceless... ifyswim! I'm not quite blooming...got spd/pgp and other acronyms I don't know the use of...ie i'm splitting in half but its got better since I stopped hoovering and picking up dd . Hips clicking like you would not believe...don't know what I'll be like at 40 wks....apart from that tho, my bump magically appeared this week and I'm loving having one again. Feel positive and happy majority of the time. Luckily my appts are in my nearest town, not theirs now. Think my mood is helped by positive and wanted attention from friends and people I know to chat too...feel nurtured by the briefest contacts It makes a great deal of difference not to have negative unwanted attention from two people I don't want around me like last time ie mother and mil. Mother does not know and has no contact if I don't want it. Mil is too focussed on sil who has made a disaster of her life thanks to mil's extremely poor, no boundries, smothering parenting skills. So all good at the moment!!

And a update on mothering news...got letter 5 wks ago (she was in aggressive 'how dare you' parent mode). Gist was could not harm gd if she saw her for short periods of time, everyone can't understand why the mad as a box of cut snakes grandmother cannot have contact with gd. And as I cannot possibly have any real reason for breaking contact I must have done it out of Pure Spitefulness. She is aware of her shortcomings (but has yet to list any, in any of her mail or admit any parenting faux pas) do I know mine? ie I'm spiteful (as told to me by mother and sister whenever I refused to play ball with them in their spiteful hurtful games). Will this woman ever accept responsibility for her actions? I WAS SUICIDAL AT 9 BECAUSE OF YOU!!! And no I'm not putting my dd or dd2 in your path to keep you happy in your mad childish irresponsible little world.

Aaahh feel better now hi ho, best go...

Love to you all

Allyxxx

Ally, glad that your scan went okay. Remember how you said you were worried that you were scared that you would recreate the same kind of bond that you and your mother had when you were pregnant with your first daughter? try to look at the fact that you don't have the same relationship with your daughter that your mother had with you. Would that help convince you that you are not going to recreate the same drama triangle between you and your daughters? I really hope it will, you sound so nice and friendly.

Sorry not very good with the advice. Had a bit of a complete breakdown this weekend, just crying and crying, hating myself no end, feeling like the worst mother, wife, daughter and sister on earth. Convinced that my parents are right in their view that I am all of the above.

It did however cheer me up slightly (I am weird and have never claimed to be anything but ) that it only lasted for a couple of hours and not a full evening, night and most of the next day like it used to do.

It does help though to have a husband who says he just cannot understand why I feel like this, as he quite often sees proof to contradict this.

I AM NOT though a bad person. I am a good mother. A good wife. A good friend. (I was anway) a good daughter.

Hello, whats the etiquette (sp) on this thread? can I just sort of join in?

Hi Girafescantdancetangom welcome to this thread.
Yes you can just join, we all try to help eachother here.

Ally- So good to hear from you. You sound so positive and healthy.
Great news about your scan too.
I think you are 'far' too self aware to recreate the triangle which is (or was) you, your mum and sister.
As More said you have done a great job already of breaking the cycle with dd.
It is natural to worry though, You are bound to worry about a lot of things at this stage. Hormones flying (and I have to say I was far more hormonal with dd than ds- all that extra oestrogen).
Btw- with regard to your letter from your mum that is exactly where my parents are at. Especially my mother. Cruel, evil daughter "FLOUNCE".

More- Big hug- It just hits you sometimes. Out of the blue whammo.
Its the anger. Where the bloody hell can it really go, when those that truly deserve our anger will not accept it?
It goes on those closest to us, and on ourselves.
Get a pen when it happens and write the opposite of what you are thinking about yourself...over and over if you have to.
Your husband is right and much more qualified to say exactly what type of person you are than your parents ever could be.
He's the man that lives with you!
They are the one's with issues More NOT you. And in fact they are NOT good parents, despite the fact you were (and still are) A good daughter.

Oneplusone- I so relate to what you have written;

'...my parents have only ever wanted me so they could use me to vent their unwanted feelings on, they never wanted me for 'me', they never even bothered to get to know me and to this day they have no idea who i really am. '

This is exactly how I feel. I feel it about my entire family.
My mother is 'still' making everything about her. Oh poor me. Cruel and vengeful daughter.
My father pleading ignorance. 'After all I have ever done for Smithfield. Why would she behave like this'?

It is a hard, and terribly lonely path being a scapegoat. Having to absorb all the bad feelings of the whole family into your entire being. You end up believing the hype. Start to believe in our wrongness. Consumed by the bad feelings we've had to carry for so many years.

With regard to the incidents with your father oneplusone- I know how terribly painful it must be. I have one such incident myself that I find 'Very' difficult and dont speak of.
But would it help to write it down here? If you wrote it out of your system so to speak. Or into a journal?
It may be that you need validation that what happened was as bad as it obviously was. For many years you may have had to shrink it down in your mind in order to retain a relationship with your dad or just in order to survive your dreadful family?

Thank you Smithfield and ActingNormal for your kind words (no offense taken at all).

I was thinking last Saturday (probably what set everything off) about why I always seem to cry when I watch tv or films. I went to HIghschool Musical 3 in the cinema and I cried (why would anyone cry at that film? Me apparently is the answer to that one).

Sometimes I think I cry because they always seem to get that happy ending that I always so badly wanted for myself.

Now I am thinking that maybe I cry at happy endings because these people had closure. Everything was solved and they "lived happily ever after".

Hello.

I can relate to the crying all the time thing. I do it too, I cry at films, tv, music, anything really. I know that feelings are being triggered, always from my childhood, but I am not always sure what event/time/place exactly they relate to. But it is a good thing I think, to be able to feel when before I was completely numb. It is a sign of healing.

AN, I think you are absolutely correct in what you said about the 'incident' with my dad being hugely traumatic. I think although i can remember exactly what happened, i still can't feel the emotions i would have experienced during and after the event. I think they are still being 'blocked' by my brain as i don't think i am ready to feel them at the moment. I think I am scared of feeling those emotions as i know they involve a huge amount of pain, a huge sense of betrayal, overwhelming shock. I can't remember what happened directly after the event, i think my brain has completely blocked that bit out, a bit like people who say they had a car crash and can't remember anything after the moment of impact for example.

I wonder sometimes if somehow my brain is allowing the emotions connected to that event to come through in small bits, rather than in one go, as i do occasionally feel moments of pain/grief etc after being triggered by something in everyday life, but the feelings are never completely overwhelming.

I have been looking at some websites on childhood trauma and the effects it has on the development of the brain. There are a huge amount of american websites on this subject; they seem to be streaks ahead of us in terms of the recognition of childhood trauma and research into it's effects and treatment. Sometimes i feel like printing off a whole load of these articles and sending them to my parents to give them an idea of the damage they have caused and the long term effect their abuse has had. Their ignorance really angers and annoys me, they genuinely seem to think that if they say sorry everything will be ok and our relationship will be back on track. And my dad at least is an intelligent man, surely he should be able to figure things out for himself. But i guess that would mean looking at himself squarely in the mirror and seeing himself for who he really is and that is something i am sure he will never want to do. Far better for him to blame me for everything and save himself. I was thinking about how i inadvertently used a very apt phrase in one of my recent posts about my dad, about how he used me as his scapegoat in order to 'save his own skin' in preference to mine. That phrase has a literal application in my case in that it is indeed my skin that has suffered due to my abuse induced eczema rather than my dad's. (He also gets eczema so i know i inherited a gene from him that pre-disposes me to the condition). He used me to project all his own unwanted feelings and insecurities onto and i as a child 'absorbed' them all meaning he was free of any burden, whilst i took on all his emotional problems and indeed physical one's in so far as I have been the one whose eczema has flared up rather than his.

I know if i sent a load of articles to my parents it would fall on deaf and blind and ignorant ears, but it would give me so much satisfaction to do it, I think I might go ahead anyway.

Some of the articles i read answered a question i had. I was wondering what the effect of multiple traumas would have on a child. Because after the first and in my eyes most traumatic incident with my dad there were others which to me now, seem like they were less traumatic. But is this because my feelings had been 'numbed' by the first incident and so i just couldn't feel the real impact of the subsequent incidents? According to the articles i read, the initial abuse does not 'harden up' a child, it actually makes you more vulnerable and subsequent abuse has a cumulative effect.

I think i am scared of really facing up to/admitting/talking about/posting all of the incidents i experienced, there are so many, all with really intense emotions attached. I am scared of the amount of damage that probably was done to me as a child and whether and how long it may take to recover from it all. I can't even remember much of it, about 4 incidents stand out in my mind but i suppose the rest is a bit of a blur of general nastiness, anger, hatred either directed at me or my sisters or between my parents.

It has been over 2 years since i cut off my parents, and i feel like i have come such a long way, but i am realising now that i am really only just at the beginning. Perhaps it is my own fault, I admit i am impatient to just 'get over' it all because i am aware of how it is impacting on my DC's and DH. And i am impatient just to get on with my life, go back to work once the DC's are a bit older. My parents have already stolen around 27 years of my life and i really don't want to hand over any more to them. DH doesn't help either, he is constantly banging on about my problems have an impact on him and about how long it has all been going on for and the implication is that enough is enough and he is fed up of it all and he just wants us to lead a normal family life. He wants a wife who is there and not consumed by her own problems and in her own world. He's not being unreasonable i suppose, but it puts pressure on me to 'sort myself out' as quickly as possible when it seems to be out of my control really.

But as always it helps enormously to get these things off my chest so thank you to you all for being so supportive. I am really sorry i haven't been able to respond to recent posts, i haven't had a lot of time recently. But i always read everyone's posts and always find them so helpful and reassuring, i am grateful to everyone for sharing their experiences.

Hey Ally,
Glad to hear the scan went fine. Do not worry about the fact you are having another little girl. You have already altered the script and changed history. It will not repeat itself. I sometimes think that its not a coincidence that almost all of us have a girl as a first child . Its almost as though, we have been given this other chance to re-create a loving childhood for a little girl, the childhood that we never had ourselves. I don't want to sound too phsycho. I don't think I AM my DD or anything like that, but I really feel that when I'm being kind and nurturing to her, I'm being kind and nurturing to myself.
THis tells me to what extent our mothers were messed up because clearly their hate and disgust towards us had nothing really to do with us and was merely a reflection of the hate and disgust they had for themselves. When they were cruel to us they believed we were the source of their hatred and disgust but in fact it was all about them. So anyway my point is that Ally, you don't need to worry about history repeating itself. I think you have gone way past the stage where that is likely to happen, because you have awareness and insight. (I find it hard to take my own advice though! I do wonder if one of my kids is going to turn out to be the scapegoat or something )

I would like some advice about toxic relations onthis thread if anyone has time to look.

I'm new to this thread, but I think my mother is toxic. She thinks everything is about her and walked out of my dd's christening party because she said no-one said hello to her (she was only there two minutes before storming out, saying she was going to the shop and never returning).

She has been for cosmetic surgery (I know because she has told my grandmother) but told me she was having a stomach operation and was v seriously ill. She tried to tell me she had two black eyes as a result of the anaesthetic!

Everytime I phone her she is too busy to talk to me. On Friday I phoned her because I was upset. She said she was just taking her boots off and would ring back. She never did.

She will talk to me if her friends are there, but when I try to carry on the conversation after they leave she ignore me.

She was there when my dd2 was born and was a good help during the birth (at home) but started an argument with my husband moments after she was born, spoiling a beautiful moment.

She is utterly self-absorbed. She used to pretend she was dead when I was about 3 or 4 to test my reaction.

hard thread to read, so will keep it short.got rid of my toxic mother.told her to stay away from me and my kids,unfortunatly my sister and brothers have kept away too. their choice,cant do anything about it.not bothered and glad of the peace to be honest.only thing that i regret is my children dont have a grandmother, but as dp says they didnt have one anyway and they have lovely step granparents from him.things do get better, dont dwell on the past too much and accept that whatever happened wastnt your fault.tell and show your kids that you love them everyday and make lots of happy memories.remember those!

I got some validation a few days ago of what really happened between my mother and me as I was growing up! My sister was often there and witnessed a lot but she has always denied it all, or said I was exaggerating. Mostly over the years I?ve begun to wonder if my perception is really so screwed and if I really did imagine some things which I think I could draw like a picture. Over time I have learned not raise the subject because I always end up feeling worse than when I started. However I spoke to my sister a few days ago about something else entirely and she suddenly made a fleeting reference to our mother?s toxic behaviour. The she opened up and I am not crazy! She said our mother does behave badly, she did abuse us physically and emotionally for years and years, starting at around age 6 and all the people who Mum has fallen out with down the years, well they can?t all be bad and although we have only heard our mother?s side of the story its just not possible that so many people would suddenly become nasty to her and pick on her without provocation. We didn?t list everything but my sister did even remember some of the things our Mother did to me, particularly in my teens when the mental and emotional abuse was really at its worst.

As I type this I want to cry but with relief not sadness. The fact that one of the other people who was present saw the same things that I saw is like a weight being lifted from my shoulders.

I posted here before but didn?t write much as my thoughts were all so confused: how much (of the bad things with my mother) was my imagination, how much am I just a whiner and how really did happen and was unacceptable? I didn?t any of these answers and it doesn?t seem fair to burden everyone else with reading about the turmoil but with out an end in sight.
But it has been hard because as far as things to do with my mother is concerned I always seem to be jumping at shadows (and I have been a grown up for a long time now so there wasn?t much chance of growing out of it!)

I don?t think this is the end of my recovery form this part of my life and I don?t want to risk my sister closing up again, so I am not going to try to get her to discuss it further with me, but can any of you who have been through this sort of thing tell me what to aim for next?

As I said it has been a long time since my childhood and looking back the thing that I lost out on most was the ability to trust my own judgement. Surely I always thought there must be some truth in the things she said/ screamed at me?? There is another thread running here which has included a description of Narcistic personality disorder. I looked up the symptoms and my first long term boyfriend fits the profile 100%. Everyone could see how awful he was but at the time I could see it too but felt paralysed to deal with it, so instead I got more and more trapped. I think this is the sort of thing that might have been avoided if my parents, especially my mother had given me a better start in life. All I had to do was say ?we?re finished? and walk away but I had no confidence that what I felt was extremely bad behaviour on his part was really extremely bad behaviour and not just about me. He used to tell me that I was lucky to have him and that he was the best in the world (at everything he turned his hand too apparently) and I did believe him, because I?d never learned where to draw the line. My parents hated him too but then my mother always found faults with my friends, so I just put her negativity about him down to that and at least he shielded me from her.

It also makes me wonder at my dad?s role. He saw a lot of what was going on, so why didn?t he do something to protect his children? Maybe he did and we didn?t witness it, but it wasn?t enough that?s for sure.
Sorry this has been so long. Has anyone got any advice please?

DSRplus8-Right on! There are consequences but nothing so great as to continue to sacrifice ourselves. The consequence of that is to diminish our existence/lives. Live in the present, like your dp says. Good for you. The others may take a while to think about it and eventually realize that you are right.

I have found mounds of joy under my own roof and am proud of myself (yea-me! thinking about myself) for setting tangible boundaries for the toxic history as well as my toxic, crap sister. I am dumping "stuff" physically and emotionally.

Ally-concentrate on positive-find all kinds of positives-joy, love, fun, just smiles (and fun holidays-not crappy ones )... and there may not be any room/time left for the negetaive side. This 'self-talk' worked for me when I was very shocked to learn that I was pg again (at 46!).

I was not helped by my mom at all in terms of social advice, wardrobe, or any private girl stuff. So helping my daughters (and son-but especially the girls) does ring some sad notes for me-what I missed out on-mourning the childhood void. But I feel better in that I am there for them like a mom is supposed to be. Sometimes I feel I amaze myself for actually helping them when I have no foundation from which to operate.
Also- your "mom" using the "everyone can't figure it out" line-we can see through that clear enough. The imaginary posture of superiority in numbers (imaginary numbers): is isn't any of "everyone's" business, is it?

Acting Normal, More and Oneplusone-I cried in the Momma Mia movie-for the girl friendships. I liked your post about giving attention to the little ones, AN.

Healing ourselves is a long road, oneplusone. We know it may take years. Sounds daunting, so could you take a little break from it-like a vacation people take from their normal work?

Smithfield-hugs to you. The contact sounds horrid for you. The people around you can not see that they are the reason you wish and feel to disconnect when in their presence. Any connection only brings-what? ridicule/judgement/dismissiveness (a la my Middle Sister)? Who wouldn't want to disconnect? It is the only healthy thing to do in those circumstances. Look out for your own sanity, it appears no one else will.

I need to take dear dd2 out for some air.
I am doing better in my head regarding ME, but like Emma789 (welcome!) I find I pause for some trust recalibration. I am also finding it easier to discard petty mistakes instantly (INSTANTLY) instead of carrying them around like a cross to bear.

November 13 is my one year anniversary for posting on this thread. Thanks for all your help, again.

haven't been here for a couple of months. Mostly been trying to think and sort things out in my own head. Still waiting for counselling (was put on waiting list in July) ho hum.

I want to slip back into pretending nothing is wrong. Luckily my mum is preventing me from doing that

At the moment I am 'destroying ds life purely through spite'. It makes a change from being a disapointment and a failure I suppose.

I find it hard to fully think about what they think of me as a parent. I wonder why if they truly believe I am as awful as they tell me why haven't they called social services? They think my child is at risk, they think I am incapable of taking care of his basic needs (bathing him, feeding him, clothing him). If I really thought about it and how little they think of me I don't think I could cope.

Yet we still have moments of normality, moments where the pretence takes over and it nearly seems real.

Emma - I find my father harder to cope with than my mum. Bystander behaviour is difficult to comprehend. Although my dad has done some stuff when I was a child, his main role now, and for the past few years has just been encouraging us to do what ever my mum wants. And to let her get away with it. I find that hard. I can#t believe that being in the same situation that I woudl let anyone carry out similar on my ds. My mum I can find excuses for her behaviour to a certain extent. Standing back and watching that behaviour being inflicted on your child I can't. I keep making my dp promise to me that if I ever turn into my mother he will take ds and run. There is a part about bystander behaviour in the toxic parents book. I find it harder to forgive, but then I haven't really ever had a close relationship with my father.