I need some help in making this relationship work

[Triathlete]

Background: oldest of three boys, grew up in a family where there were lots of chores and responsibilities. DW is single child and Russian. DS is 9 months old.

I work, she looks after DS. I'm out of the house from 7am til 7pm. He's an easy child to look after - happy, healthy, good-natured. She's a great mum with him.

DW is lazy, and I feel that having DS has given her the excuse she needs not to do any housework. Before anyone gets up on their high horse - I know how much work it is to look after a child, I was doing it when I was twelve. I have always done as much as possible in the parenting.

There are key issues. One is vacuum cleaning. We live in a old dusty house - garden, allotment, walks in the countryside. If we don't keep on top of the vacuuming, it becomes intolerable really quickly. I wake up coughing in the night. Practically this means 30 mins vacuuming 5 or 6 times a week. Not a big deal, very easy to knock off after breakfast. When I was single, I used to do it before going to work.

DW will do what she likes around the house - sorting out wardrobes or cleaning the bath. To me, the wardrobe is a marginal issue

Last weekend, after ANOTHER row in a 3 year series of rows, we agreed (again) that we'd write a list, negotiate and agree who does what, and stick to it. This weekend, I'm coughing in the night again, DW hasn't started the list as it's obviously up to me to sit her down and do it, and I had to finish off the washing up that she said she'd do.

I know this all sounds like it's about getting DW to do more housework, but it's not. It's about levels of commitment to making the relationship work. I feel like I have to be the manager, checking, delegating, telling the workforce what to do. That's not how I want the relationship to be. (I fucking manage stuff all day at work, I don't want to do it at home). I plan and do the shopping, I plan and do the meals - even if she cooks, she phones me at work to ask me what and how to cook. I plan and do the outings, and just about everything else.

This also isn't about male chauvinism and housework. My mother trained all three of us really well. I used to iron my own shirts as a teenager, we all had jobs, roles, responsibilities. We all learned that work doesn't go away, and the quicker you do it the quicker you are free.

I need some help in non-confrontational ways of helping DW to understand how important this is to me, working together to deal with it, and being adult and respectful of each other. I don't want more rows (actually there's another issue in conflict resolution - I come from a "let's identify the problem and agree the way forward" perspective, she has a "I must win this argument at all costs" approach). I want us to be able to work together and make our family a success, but I don't think she shares that vision - it feels like she just wants to be looked after.

Please help

I hope my first post was one of the helpful ones.

Could your wife be frustrated with her role at home? Could she be putting her qualifications and language skills towards something she finds more fulfilling? Did she have a career before your child was born?

You say that she was like this before the birth so in a way with the extra responsibility she now has for the daytime care of your child, perhaps it should be no surprise that things have not improved. If anything you would expect them to get worse with all the added responsibility a young child brings.

I think you need to have that discussion but try to do it in a non-confrontational way. One good sensible talk, with suggestions on how things can work better for you both -where you listen as well as talk.

She sounds like an intelligent woman who may be feeling emotional and knackered and just needs to know that you want to work it out reasonably.

Does your DW come from a culture where people live in extended families and often the grandparents do at least half of the childcare?

You sound extremely driven and with a high work ethic, she sounds lazy (looking after a child is hard going but it doesn't preclude being able to do anything else and anyway the floor needs to be extra clean as soon as DS starts crawling).

First thing I would do if I were you, is get a cleaner and the second would be make it your wife's job to do everything else including write the shopping list. Your role is to work, get the shopping, direct the cleaner, play with your DS in the evening and work very hard to keep your criticisms to yourself about your wifes' performance.
Try to empower her and see if it makes a difference. If it doesn't then she is lazy and there is not much you can do about it.

" I am now reminding myself that the only qualification for access to this forum is owning a computer, and that indeed my standards are probably too high for some people. "

I think your arrogance is always going to be a problem in any relationship tbh.

I mean take this:

"DW behaves like a teenager in some respects - will do a job poorly so that she is not asked to do it again."

If my husband ever described me in such terms he would be out. Not because of what he's said but because of the manner. You talk about her as if she is a staff member. She's your wife. She is allowed to actually choose not to do housework to your standard.

"But perhaps I made it easy too - as the oldest boy on a smallholding with goats, fowl, vegetables, and a heap of house chores, I had a lot of responsibility that my brothers didn't. They were smaller, younger and less willing. So when DW doesn't do something that she has committed to do, it goes straight to that angry 14 year old who knows that the goats need milking and feeding, and knows that his brothers aren't going to help."

If your 14 year old self is causing problems in your marriage you need counselling.

I'd buy in a cleaner and let her do something with her 3 degrees and have a break from 12 hour days of childcare.

Thanks MrsT- and I think all the posts after mine are saying the same thing.

Are you there, Mr T- what is your response?

Alfredas post is full of compassion and useful ideas.

Triathlete, I think one of the reasons you are getting a hard time is because you posted exactly the same thing about 3 months ago and got lots of excellent advice then.

You then post again about exactly the same thing, without acknowledging the time and effort that people put in previously, or indeed letting us know if you tried any of the advice given at that time.

Again on this thread, you don't appear to particularly be taking on board the useful advice that people are offering, just throwing general insults at some of the admittedly ( I include myself in this) childish remarks.

I'm debating if we would have given you the same advice if you were a woman posting the same info, and yes I think people would.

You have high exacting standards, and perhaps your DW is mildly depressed and/or not a paragon of housework.

Of course, it?s not about hoovering ? you?ve acknowledged that already and I do understand how frustrated you must be ? TBH, it would drive me mad to deal with it, as well.

But if you want to find a win-win solution, then you are going to have to do alter your mindset and your expectations, cos what you are doing now is just not working. I?m sure you?re right, but bitter pill to swallow, that makes not one jot of difference.
You?re both digging your heels in, and it is only going to get worse.
You?ve gone into parent mode and she?s acting like a sulky teenager ? all this not doing stuff is just passive aggressive bull. And it?s winding you up to the point where you?re acting ever more like the headmaster.

Practical solutions?
In the interim,
Get a cleaner.
To really address these problems
Go to Relate.

You need to stop going down the martyr route and give her back some control and she needs to grow up and accept her responsibilities. That way you?ll meet somewhere in the middle and learn to react to each other as adults.

It's not easy, but it?ll be worth it for the sake of your little one.

Just reminded me: I know I've gone on about covey and Myers Briggs and all that Bollox, I'm not actually a psychologist but coolbeans's post makes me think it would be worth looking at transactional analysis in the way you interact with the Missus, Triath.

And if you find a good cleaner could you send her my way after she's done your vaccuming? ;)

Have just read your post again, Tri.

How on earth is your house so dusty? If you all take off your muddy shoes etc before traipsing all over the house, then with 2 adults and a baby, the dust should be minimal.

Where is it all coming from?

I certainly can't see how ever room needs to be hoovered almost every day- can you?

Maybe i am a slut, but I rarely hoover upstairs more than once a week or even once a fortnight , though down stairs gets done perhaps every other day.

Are you making the dust a scapegoat for much deeper disatisfactions?

Come back and tell us more please.

I'd like to thank all those who came on here with constructive suggestions and who tried to engage with the issues in good faith.

We've been talking, better, for the last couple of days. There's plenty to get through, and I will have to find time to get off to my own support groups which I have let drop recently.

My wife has acknowledged her role in some of our difficulties too, which is progress, as she has found this difficult in the past. Russians are brought up in a win-lose or zero-sum culture, with little tolerance for other people's points of view.

I've been looking at how deep some of my issues go, how I can better understand my wife and how she is feeling, and concentrating on the positive aspects of our relationship. I've also being trying to take account of how much my own depression problems may be contributing to the issues.

Plenty more work to do, but now some goodwill as well.

I'm glad you have posted back and that you are off to your support groups- but you are a bit vague on what is actually going to change?

Have you not agreed to either get a cleaner, or share the chores, or any of the other advice from MNs here?

My god your DW sounds like my DP incarnate - if not quite the devil.

That coupled with the fact that he has the emotional intellegence of a knat.

The only advice I have is this I'm afraid - tho is has helped us more than anything else, incliding going to relate.

Also have this

Good luck.

just wanted to add - buy one each, ie one for each other so you don't have to take turns to read

Just readiong you last post Tri, I think those books will help you do all of those things - both of you. But it is about looking within as well as without.

But remember the Nash equilibrium!

I only read the first and last posts btw

Tri, do I remember reading an old thread which listed the things you did around the house? (I seem to remember it was quite long!). If I'm right, on top of you working full-time, I think you have legitimate grounds for wanting to work out with your DW how things will work around the house.

Hope your feeling better Tri.

FWIW, MN hasn't indeared itself to me this week - it's been v quick to judge and condemn many who asked for genuine help but fall foul of the pc police.

What's going to change?

I don't yet know. However, I'm re-reading my Covey, we're both reading some Biddulph, and we're trying to communicate better. DW has told me how she feels about living here, both positive and negative. I've told DW how I feel about the housework issues and why it's important it to me. We've also spoken about commitment issues in the relationship.

I'm going to hoover once a week, which will bring the total up to 3x weekly, which should be ok. DW is cooking more often, which is nice. I will be putting DS to bed most nights as DW really needs a break by then. I'll carry on doing the shopping, the washing up, the heavy work at the allotment, the planning and procurement for house and allotment, maintaining the car, fixing the bicycles, and all the other things that DW thinks only men can do. DW will carry on expecting things to be organised and for me to make decisions, I imagine, although I'll try and give her more space to do that if she wants to. Oh, and I've stopped making bread - I can't be bothered any more.

If we can get away from Parent-Child, and towards Adult-Adult, more often, I reckon we'll do all right.

Triathlete, you don't sound very hopeful that its going to work out for you.

Just a couple of thoughts, do you absolutely have to have an allotment as it sounds like it is taking up quite a lot of your time and whilst I know that its yummy nutritious and satisfying to have home grown veg, you do seem to be doing a lot so would it be one activity that could be dropped in the short term ? Surely fixing bikes and maintaining the car are occasional and sporadic activities.

Also as you have not mentioned these activities I assume that your DW is also looking after and cooking for your Ds, doing the laundry and tidying the house.

I'm not being pedantic here, but it is very very easy to get into the habit of being the hard done by household martyr and forgetting what the other partner does. I know I do it and then DH reminds me that he does the finances and the insurance and things like that.

You sound exhausted, exasperated and quite resentful, as well.
That's a hard place to live. It really is.

From an outside perspective, (my perspective), you seem to have recreated the stresses and strains of your adolescence into your present. I'm sure none of this is a revelation to you.

A good book on this subject is called "Getting the Love You Want" by Harville Hendrix.

this one

It's a bit American, but if you can get past that - it's pretty good. His theory is that not only do we recreate, to some extent, the relationships we had as children, but that if we recognize and work on these issues in the context of our current relationships, there is great opportunity to heal and make things better. There are also exercises in the book to help you identify and work through your particular issues.

I hope you get time to go to your group. I think you could do with a bit of support..

Your life does sound like a grind, Triath, although lots in there could be things that give joy, if only you were able to feel it, like the allotment and the bread-baking, and putting your child to bed. I can't work out how much of your distress is because you are overworked with things you must do, and how much because your depression means you get no pleasure from anything you do? Everything is such an effort when you are depressed, isn't it.

Which of those things do you enjoy doing?

Can you shop online, especially as you plan ahead?

Dishwasher?

Although it's really about the relationship isn't it? You last sentence. It's all about that.

only a little practical point re the hoovering problem...

do you wear shoes indoors? I'm only guessing since you mention "garden, allotment, walks in the countryside" contributes to the dustiness of your house. Taking shoes off at the door could make a world of difference.

agree with last 2 posts- online shopping? Shoes off before you come in? (Unwritten rule in our house). Does your wife drive? Has she anyone to help her with your son so she could leave him whilst she does a food shop- or shops in the evening when you are at home?

Why can't she wash up?

I know kids take up a lot of time, but a spot of hoovering whilst he plays s not impossible.

Is her health okay after the birth? Are you sure?

It does sound as if you are doing more than your fair share, but then we don't have her side of things. it is often very revealing as the other person often has a different perspective.