How do couples fairly discuss childcare, housework and mental load?

[MumWithEspresso]

I've been wondering whether anyone has found a system that genuinely feels fair.
Not necessarily 50/50, but something where both partners feel their time and effort are recognised.

When I was on maternity leave, I realised we kept having the same argument. One of us would say, "But I worked all day," and the other would think, "So did I."

The problem was that we were remembering different things. Paid work was obvious. The endless childcare, planning, tidying, cooking, appointments and mental load weren't.

Has anyone found a practical way of tracking or discussing it without it turning into a score-keeping exercise?
I'm genuinely curious whether there are methods that actually work.

You should have made it clear you weren't seeking advice and were researching for potential financial gain.

I wouldn't have wasted my time.

Other people are now still waiting their time because they haven't read hour update and think they're helping someome who needs it.

i disagree. It is very easy to shut women up on this - to effectively refuse to listen to what is actually involved in making family life happen.

Many men don’t even do it that consciously - they consider themselves Good Guys and talk the feminist ally talk.

Generally they are able to continue to look away by making the women who raise it feel like controlling nags. And many of those women have already internalised that trope.

Normal guys, normal women, all of whom believe they have a good relationship because they have been socialised not to see the enormous inequality at the heart of it.

Lots of the men become less nice when forced to acknowledge their exploitation of course.

i th ink anything which makes it harder for self-described Good Guys to look away and easier to articulate the hidden work without a row or a sulk is a good thing.

I agree with everything you said. Except with your first sentence. I’m unclear what you disagree with. If your partner doesn’t see you struggle or doesn’t even realise that the mental load isn’t the same, that the chores aren’t the split the same, that women have constantly been exploited and ignored and were “trained” by society that way and that the expectations aren’t fair, desirable or even attainable you don’t think the relationship needs work?

We never had a conversation, we just sort of did things, Dh notices something weird with DC tooth while he’s brushing their teeth, he’ll call the dentist. In the evenings we both try to get everything done so we can relax together. No-ones done until everyones done. Having a baby is more difficult though because everyone is tired and no-one is getting enough sleep but you should be able to trust that your spouse is trying their best. We just kind of get on with stuff but we are both quite responsible people I think (I’m the lazier one truth be told).

I do think the big mistake women make is not being clear on expectations from the off. I think before children women often think “oh it’ll just take me a minute to run the hoover around, I’ll do it myself” they automatically pick up the lions share without thinking too much about why they value their own time less than their partners. Men never seem to suffer from this particular disease. When you have kids you must make sure that he takes responsibility for things like feeds, packing bags to take out, bath and bedtime, if he starts off wrong he’ll probably never get better. No you shouldn’t have to but many men seem to be instinctively selfish and need a come to jesus moment.

Of course. The app would be one way to make it easier to do the work that men habitually avoid doing and which women have been socialised not to demand.
A bald list is just that - it removes some of the emotion and the possibility of manipulation.

many other ways to do it Ofc.

I felt that your comment was likely to make women feel that they shouldn’t need to have this conversation if their relationship was ‘happy’. My point is that many / most relationships between men and women have this inequality at their heart. If you tell women that their relationships are fucked if they want to discuss this stuff, most won’t.

That’s the problem with these forums. The intention of the poster doesn’t always land and assumptions are king. So let me clarify - long term.relationships at one point or another need work - this is what I believe through my experience and observation. Saying a relationship needs work isn’t saying that the relationship is “fucked”. I have been with my husband for 21 years and we have worked on our relationship. At times more than others as at times we seem to be on the same page and others not really - so we worked on it. I don’t think my relationship is “fucked”. I don’t believe that couples are happy and on the same page at all times. Work in progress is what I life to think of life!