Please tell me what the impact of marriage counselling was for you

[Squarehairbear]

I've come to the slow realisation that I don't think I can live with things the way they are with DH. Nothing dramatic, no other parties involved but he has, over our 20 years of marriage, done a lot of things I've found very hurtful. He can be very cold and detached, and very rigid in his thinking. I think all of this could be overcome but he doesn't seem willing to reflect on his behaviour. He was very unsupportive in the early years of our having DC but will always deny this (despite hard evidence) and attempts to address it get shut down or I'm told I'm 'angry' or 'getting at him'. He has travelled a huge amount for work over the years so I spent a lot of time on my own with the DC but I've noticed that he's started minimising that and implying that I'm exaggerating things. Over the years, I've talked myself down about it and balanced out my negative thoughts about the relationship by telling myself all the really good things he does - and there are many, I really do recognise the good things about him. I'm also very aware that I'm obviously as flawed as the next person (or more so!) and there will be things I've done and do that have, if not hurt him, then irritated him and got him down. But things have come to a head (in my mind at least) since Mother's Day - both DC forgot and he knew it was mother's day (sent his own mum flowers etc) but decided it 'wasn't his job' to remind the DC. So no-one so much as wished me Happy Mother's Day - until DD realised late in the day and was gutted, made me a card the next day etc. Anyway, the point was not mother's day itself but the fact that he knew how hurt I would be but did nothing and, although it's a minor issue, it's made me realise things are a bit broken between us. I don't think he recognises this.

Our youngest DC will likely be leaving home in the next couple of years and I fantasise a lot about moving into a flat on my own somewhere. I don't look forward to spending time with him the way I used to and I'm losing hope that anything will change.

But, we have a life together, children, animals, a house, we both come from big families that are very intertwined now, and I keep thinking of all the things that separation would mess up. I also keep imagining what would happen if one of us got sick - and how important it would be to be there for each other. The whole thing feels totally intractable.

I recently confided in a friend who thinks I should broach the subject of marriage counselling with DH. I've started googling and found someone who might be suitable. But my heart does sink at the thought of how gruelling it would be, and I don't have much hope of the dynamics between us changing. Please can you tell me if you've tried it and how it was/what, if anything, it changed?

thank you

I agree the patriarchy and gender social constructs have a lot to answer for. In my experience marriage counselors are not always aware of those dynamics, strangely enough. And some men are understandably reluctant to give up the advantages they have long lived with, even if they do start to see them and acknowledge them.

yes, agreed - I know talking about patriarchy and constructs would just rile DH but a lot of what I have read along those lines on this thread is reflected in my own experience

Thank you for replying! I'll tell you a bit about my experience but massively recommend getting your own therapist first if there is a power imbalance between you and DH.

Like you I thought it would be a question of us both facing up to how we have failed in our relationship. After 10+ sessions I still have the addictive hope that will happen and I just need to explain it better.

OH has had terrifying episodes of rage at me since babies were born (2 and 5). He has been 'told off' for this in therapy but we've not gone anywhere near a conversation about how I can trust him again.

Therapy is mainly spent talking about how OH feels deeply abandoned by me after babies. And the fact that I do '300 things wrong in the house every day' which is painful for him because he has a very stressful job and he needs a temple to come home to. And he tells the therapist that despite my faults he loves me and he just wants to try absolutely everything to keep the relationship alive.

Therapist takes into account his painful childhood but too much. Every session she brings it up as if it's going to help me understand why he treats me bad. So please beware of giving too much airtime in couples therapy to your DH's childhood OP! I get that you want him to face up to things but if he is carrying that around 30+ years later it's because he is desperate not to let go.

2 sessions ago I got angry at OH and therapist. It's not something I do in front of my children I thought it was a safe space to vent. Therapist said how surprised she was about how I was talking to her. OH has since mentioned how irrational and emotional I am in therapy.

Good news is I think the therapist got fed up of me and we agreed I would do individual sessions with someone else alone. Last week, new therapist said I'm in a violent relationship. It felt real at the time but as soon as I got home I felt like everything was my fault again.

I totally get what you mean about clarity when OH is not around!

I'm still weirdly addicted to the couples' therapy believing if I explain things better I'll get validated. I'll probably give up at some point though!

Good luck and be careful out there!

I wonder if adhd and autism seek each other out - to help each other. Certainly sounds familiar to us and other couples I know!

I was privy to a group of trainee marriage guidance counsellors a few years back. They were all women, none of them were married or had kids and their average age was around 30. They mostly thought that gender was fluid, amongst other ideologies. So it's no surprise that they're either not aware, or actively deny the patriarchy. To be honest, I'd rather talk to a stranger at a bus stop about my marital problems than that lot . Probably get more sense.

Yes we had thought six weeks but a lot to unpack.

"I think women are socialised to try to take the blame for marital problems (and anything else that goes wrong). It might also give them a feeling of power, because they can change themselves whereas they can't change others. But it usually means that they compromise even more than before, while the self-absorbed H makes no effort at all and changes nothing. Eventually it leads to a sort of erasure of the woman, who has squeezed herself smaller and smaller to fit what the H wants and to keep the marriage going. And then comes menopause, which, as Margaret Atwood quipped, "is the pause women take to reconsider men". It forces you to face what is going on."

Insightful!

Sorry to hear about your experiences - the episodes of rage sound awful. And the marriage counselling really doesn't sound as if it's been very helpful in that respect - thanks for sharing your thoughts and all the very best whatever you decide going forwards. It's really tough going through all this when your kids are young and need so much time and energy. At the very least, I have a bit more headspace to work through it all now

Yes, I'm sure there's some balancing of the gene pool at play too

Can't tell you how much I appreciate people taking the time to post on this thread. It's really helped to have an outlet. Hard to talk about these things in RL sometimes because most of my friends know DH as well.

There's a motif in your posts that you might want to reflect on. I'll highlight where I saw it:

"I'm also very aware that I'm obviously as flawed as the next person (or more so!)"

"power imbalance is an issue in our relationship for lots of reasons... he is just so much more sure of himself about everything than I am. He is very confident he's right the vast majority of the time, and for a long time I think believed that but at the same time harboured resentment without really being able to pin down why."

"DH often has quite confrontational relationships with people at work (and two of his siblings often do as well) and understanding all that better would be really beneficial. So, if I can convince him that it'd be useful, I think it could potentially make his whole life a lot happier."

"he has had a bigger say in decision-making, which I have allowed/enabled because he earns more and therefore it seemed ‘fair’."

"he really struggles to accept things not being done the way he thinks they should be done and I am terrible at sticking to rigid plans"

What I see here is that you are very self-effacing, apologetic, even ashamed for being you. It's probably partly from having ADHD - I know ADHD associates with terrible self-esteem and a sense of inadequacy because you grow up feeling like everyone else got the memo and you didn't. But your H also probably consolidates those feelings rather than appreciating you for who you are. It's probably not intentional, and likely strongly coded by his autism (as well as patriarchy - double whammy). But I am definitely getting the feeling that he doesn't "see" you and he feels superior to you. In fact, I suspect he probably needs to feel superior to you. That need to be superior to others is likely why he gets into clashes at work as well.

This is not an equal relationship, has likely never been an equal relationship. You're being chonically exposed to a low level thrum of disrespect and neglect. That's why you're not happy in your marriage and feel resentment.

So there are two issues here:

(1) You: you lack self-esteem. And you lack a proper awareness of how much you bring to the marriage and family, as witnessed by the fact that you think that because H makes more money than you, you are automatically the less important person in the relationship. Frankly, you likely play a much much MORE vital role than your H in the family. He just makes money; you are likely the foundation of the family and the glue that holds everything together. You've got to work on both of these things in IC. He needs to be put in his place, he thinks way too much of himself. But to put him in his place, you need to be able to authoritatively step up to YOUR rightful place, which is right there NEXT to him, not behind him.

(2) Him: he is arrogant, self-absorbed, has little or no empathy. He has autism. He is also in his late 40s/early 50s? Imv, the chance of him changing meaningfully is small. You can try to point him in the right direction - "if I can convince him that it'd be useful" - but that's ALL you can do and you need to put limits on these efforts. It is very common for women to think, "There MUST be a way to get through to him, maybe if I say it this way, or show him, or write him letters." The fact is, there is no magic word or approach: he likely will not understand, either because he doesn't WANT to or because he is so emotionally stunted that he CAN'T. Women flog themselves to death trying to effect change in their male partners, but it doesn't work because you can't change others, only yourself. I have certainly learned that, to my cost. I often think of the saying,

"Men think women will never leave. Women think men will change. Both are wrong."

So, I suggest that you propose MC but also do IC for yourself whether he does or doesn't accept MC. It is possible that you standing up to take your rightful place in the marriage will improve things, make things more bearable for you. But it is also possible that he will resist this very strongly, because it might be fundamentally important to his self-esteem that you believe he is superior to you.

Btw, in relation to you having ADHD and him autism, there is a long-running thread on MN called "Married to someone with Asperger’s/ASD/ND: support thread". It is painful to read for me, because some of the male partners are so egregious and the posters (many are ND themselves) struggle so much to leave, but it may be helpful for you.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/5447569-married-to-someone-with-aspergersasdnd-support-thread-17

Umm - that my DH is a liar, even when presented with evidence, and that the only way I would get a definitive answer about his suspected infidelity was to go to the source (i.e. OW). Spoiler alert - he had been.

Up until the point of presenting evidence, the councillor was very much on "D"H's side, and almost made me feel paranoid/unreasonable.

Here's my tuppence worth, in case it's helpful.
I never thought marriage counselling would be a good idea, because of the dynamic between me and my husband (he is dominant, clever and impossible to win an argument against, so I thought that marriage counselling would just be an extension of that and hence very unhelpful). However, we ended up having family therapy due to my daughter's mental health issues, and I was so surprised at how my husband DIDN't act as I'd expected during those sessions. He was reflective and open.

This lead us to having marriage counselling (as suggested by the family therapist). We were both on board and chose a person we both agreed on. I think this is essential.

The MC was pretty helpful and constructive, especially as it gave me a space to speak up (something I'd struggled with). And gave us tools to deal with tricky situations.

HOWEVER, on the whole we haven't kept up with those tools. And have pretty much reverted back to type. Yet...there has been a subtle shift in a more positive direction, possibly because I feel slightly more empowered.

For me, marriage counselling was more about how to convince my then husband, that our marriage was not sustainable on the level it was.
So because someone “official” was saying almost word for word what I’d been trying to explain for the longest time, it kinda helped him realise that things could not go on as they were, and as we had a small dc at that time, it wasn’t good to rear that dc in an unhappy environment.

Marriage counselling may not be for everyone, but it supported me in my time of need.

Sorry to say that it still didn’t prevent him (husband) from acting like a twat, but his behaviours further confirmed that our separation was the best option for all of us.

He didn’t remain “on his own” for long, as he’s the type of person to not thrive without a wife.

It made me realise there was no use trying to talk.

Tbh, I only went because I didn't want to be portrayed as 'the one who wouldn't even try to fix it' despite begging exH for years to do counseling.

Too little, too late, and exH was devious and very manipulative, knew how to mouth all the right platitudes.

First marriage not quite so long as yours, similar scenes bit totally ignored my birthday, he didn't forget it just ignored it. It reflected alot of issues and ended about 2 years later without counselling. It's very hard to make someone care about you.

I was asked directly in session 1 do you actually want to stay married. To which the answer was a clear no. So that was easy. Guess she saw pretty fast what was going on.

I don’t have an answer specific to your question but is there a chance he could be autistic OP? Some of the traits you mentioned about rigid thinking and appearing cold or detached may possibly be a sign of this. Also I wonder if his opinion on it ‘not being his job’ to remind the kids it was Mother’s Day could be reflective of black and white thinking. Just a thought, it might explain a few things if any of this resonates with you.

It was good for us. Gave us some communication tools that really helped us say what we needed to each other when it would be most useful without escalating emotion or “blaming”.

Hi OP,

I have had very and successful good experience of working on my own (now 26 year) relationship including counselling.

This subject is quite large to unpack!

Marriage counselling on its own is not some magic cure-all (in my opinion) but can form part of a larger set of changes made in the dynamic of a couple.

How I see it: everything one person does in an intimate relationship has an indirect or direct effect on the other. This means that even changes YOU alone make in how you communicate/regulate your emotions/react to another person can positively or negatively/act on your boundaries influence the overall dynamic.

A good marriage counsellor will be balanced (not takes sides) and validate each person's experiences & feelings in the relationship. This means they need to let the less clingy/talkative person speak first on their view of what's not working - usually the one who didn't book the appointment - and let the other person 'complete' the story rather than the other way around.

Here's a podcast given by a skilled Imago Relationship Therapist on how he sets up his sessions really worth listening to: Notes: Starting a New Couple (First Session)
More info here on his website with lots of links to the articles he mentions:
https://www.alturtle.com/archives/1078

Note: Imago relationship therapy is a form of couples counseling and coaching designed to help relationship partners work out misunderstandings, reduce conflict, and rediscover ways to bond, communicate, and generally find common ground.

Good relationships involve either learning or already having learnt (as a child) - which is less common - lots of SKILLS. You can start learning some of these skills if you recognise you don't master them WITHOUT getting into counselling. This alone will start moving the dynamic positively. His website lists out the background relating to these Skills very well.

A good talk to listen to is also John Gottman 'Making Marriage Work':

Again it is a skill/behaviour based approach. Very well presented.

If you are not very good at emotional expression and recognition (like many of us who did not have emotionally articulate parents) you may find Bréné Browns 'Atlas Of The Heart' a useful book (also available as AudioBook). This will also enhance your relationship skills.

For women in particular who tend towards want to have 'everything under control', Laura Doyle's 'The Empowered Wife' (podcast and book) has some very usable tips on skills to practice which do not implicate the other person directly. The focus is on you (and you feeling good, especially Self Care).

These are some of the resources that help me turned my marriage around over a period of 3-5 years. For info I have 2 (now teenage) children.

Another podcast to listen to

Another podcast is:
The Couples Therapist Couch on Spotify
Episode: 218: Imago and Polyvagal Therapy with Hayley Hoffman

Sometime a good weekend Workshop like the ones Imago offer can help shift a dynamic very positively.

Good luck! It's work but worth it.

Hi all,

A belated thank you to everyone who I didn't respond to who posted helpful resources. Things seemed to improve for a bit and I lost my drive to set up the counselling.

Anyway, another couple of flare-ups over the weekend and I emailed DH yesterday to say I felt we needed counselling and that I'd found someone who I think would work but that if he'd prefer to choose someone himself that's totally find with me. I sent him an email because I didn't know how to raise it in person without it turning into a big argument. I was meant to go out with him last night to watch something but decided not to go because he did something that really bothered me (along the same lines as what happens regularly and makes me feel totally ignored etc) and I didn't want to spend another evening pretending everything was ok. So I went for a walk and emailed him while I was out (and he was out) saying the above. I asked him to let me know what he thinks about the counselling idea.

He hasn't acknowledged the email yet and things are polite but frosty between us. I feel a bit sick to my stomach about the whole thing and very anxious about having rocked the boat. It's making it hard to concentrate on work etc so coming on here for some support really.

I think you’ve made a great step there and actually you were positive in choosing the therapist. Giving him the chance to change that is you deferring to him. You don’t need to do that, you are such a bright and capable woman.
You can definitely try therapy with him but personally I think you would benefit from your own therapy.
Going out in someone’s company pretending to be okay should no longer be an option for you. Last night, you took a brave step instead.
So whether he says yes or not, go to therapy.

Think of feeling anxious and unable to concentrate as the necessary byproducts of initiating change. And that change will be beneficial, whether things improve through counseling, or you divorce and you can create the life you wish for.

It's good that you gave him the message when it wasn't during an argument where people say over-the-top things they really don't mean. This will show him the seriousness of the matter, as well as you going to individual therapy if he refuses to attend marital counseling. Feel good, difficult as it is, to have taken this first step toward your goal.

Thank you for your kind posts @ThisJadeBear and @ScorpionLioness79 I was upset when I sent the message rather than calm and reflective. So I do worry about that. But equally, I don't think if I hadn't been upset that I'd ever have mustered up the nerve to talk to him about it.

I feel so down about it all, my limbs feel oddly heavy. I keep thinking maybe it's all just me, that I overreacted last night, again, that I'm expecting too much / being unreasonable etc and that I've broken something by suggesting marriage counselling.