Please tell me what the impact of marriage counselling was for you

[Squarehairbear]

I've come to the slow realisation that I don't think I can live with things the way they are with DH. Nothing dramatic, no other parties involved but he has, over our 20 years of marriage, done a lot of things I've found very hurtful. He can be very cold and detached, and very rigid in his thinking. I think all of this could be overcome but he doesn't seem willing to reflect on his behaviour. He was very unsupportive in the early years of our having DC but will always deny this (despite hard evidence) and attempts to address it get shut down or I'm told I'm 'angry' or 'getting at him'. He has travelled a huge amount for work over the years so I spent a lot of time on my own with the DC but I've noticed that he's started minimising that and implying that I'm exaggerating things. Over the years, I've talked myself down about it and balanced out my negative thoughts about the relationship by telling myself all the really good things he does - and there are many, I really do recognise the good things about him. I'm also very aware that I'm obviously as flawed as the next person (or more so!) and there will be things I've done and do that have, if not hurt him, then irritated him and got him down. But things have come to a head (in my mind at least) since Mother's Day - both DC forgot and he knew it was mother's day (sent his own mum flowers etc) but decided it 'wasn't his job' to remind the DC. So no-one so much as wished me Happy Mother's Day - until DD realised late in the day and was gutted, made me a card the next day etc. Anyway, the point was not mother's day itself but the fact that he knew how hurt I would be but did nothing and, although it's a minor issue, it's made me realise things are a bit broken between us. I don't think he recognises this.

Our youngest DC will likely be leaving home in the next couple of years and I fantasise a lot about moving into a flat on my own somewhere. I don't look forward to spending time with him the way I used to and I'm losing hope that anything will change.

But, we have a life together, children, animals, a house, we both come from big families that are very intertwined now, and I keep thinking of all the things that separation would mess up. I also keep imagining what would happen if one of us got sick - and how important it would be to be there for each other. The whole thing feels totally intractable.

I recently confided in a friend who thinks I should broach the subject of marriage counselling with DH. I've started googling and found someone who might be suitable. But my heart does sink at the thought of how gruelling it would be, and I don't have much hope of the dynamics between us changing. Please can you tell me if you've tried it and how it was/what, if anything, it changed?

thank you

I was in a similar situation and told my H he had to go to individual counselling or I was leaving. The problem for me was that he didn't listen to me, he argued with me constantly, he took me for granted, and he was occasionally jealous of the kids. Underneath that was sexist thinking about women, immaturity and intense emotional dependence on me, male self-absorption, and a fortress-like self-defensiveness.

I was dead serious about my ultimatum. I wasn't going to do marriage counselling again, I'd already dragged him to a bunch of expensive sessions and it was completely pointless. The problem wasn't in the way I was communicating, it was that he seemed unable to HEAR my communications.

After my ultimatum, he went once every 2 weeks for about 2 years to talk with a psychologist nurse, who - from the things he said about his sessions - was very clear on what he had to do to improve the relationship: drop his reflexive defensiveness and listen. Read the things I sent him. Discuss them with me. Be open to self-criticism. Contain his desire to immediately argue. Understand how patriarchy had shaped him and his thinking about women and his wife. Build his own emotional solidity.

Over time, things did improve a lot, but there was also a LOT of backsliding that often felt like it was "one step forward one step back". It was exhausting for me to teeter constantly on the pivot of "OMFG! he did it again! Is this FINALLY it? Do I leave now?" and then he'd say all the right things and be very apologetic. And then for a while it wasn't possible to leave because one of the kids started to really struggle with her mental health and I wanted to keep things stable for her as well as the other two.

In the 5-6 years since my ultimatum, the periods between the OMFG! moments have gotten longer and longer, but these moments still pop up occasionally, and then I'm just really triggered. All I can think then is how much I want to live all alone in a little cottage with my pets and a spare bedroom for the kids when they want to visit. Currently it's such that I'm still not sure what I'll do once the last child is out of the house, which will be 1.5 years from now.

So I have three points about your situation:

(1) Marriage counselling could help but your H has to really want it himself. That want might not come until you give him an ultimatum, an ultimatum that you're ready to back with leaving.

(2) Your H has to have not only the will but also the CAPACITY to work on himself. To understand that he is hurting you and why he behaves that way, he has to be able to see beyond himself, reflect on himself, actualise himself, learn self-awareness.

When I did the MC with my H, it was blindlingly obvious that he saw it as a box-ticking exercise. The therapist noted it too. He was thinking: OK, I will obediently attend all the sessions; I will nod and look like I'm listening; I will learn by rote what the right things to say are (e.g. "I hear you"); I will say them often. Then my wife will go back to being nice to me and wanting to have sex with me and will stop talking about asset division, and everything will be hunky-dory again.

He couldn't do that in IC. I wasn't the subject, who he had to flimflam, soothe, cajole, promise, and placate. HE was the subject, and he had to look at himself. And it was REALLY hard and painful for him. It's not for the weak-willed, it takes courage and commitment. Not everyone has that.

(3) It will likely be very frustrating for you whether you do MC or he does IC, because it'll be "one step forward, one step back" for a long time. That just drains all energy out of you. It's kind of a torture. It damages the marriage further. If I had to do it all again, I'd probably separate and tell him to get IC and we'd see about our marriage after a year. But then again, if I'd left then, that probably would have been it for me.

So maybe you should create a sort of decision tree: (1) can I tolerate my husband's behaviour for the rest of my life? If yes, do nothing. If no, (2) do I think he will want to work on himself to improve our relationship? If no, separate. If yes, (3) do I think he will be able to work on himself effectively? If no, separate. If yes, (4) can I tolerate the inevitable back-sliding that will probably go on for years?

Marriage counselling won't suddenly transform his personality. And is completely pointless if he's being dragged along just to appease you or if he's going because he thinks it will justify his actions over the years (I speak from experience). It's also completely pointless if you are making him go so he can see that you are right.

What I did find helpful was solo marriage guidance, and more general solo therapy.

Thanks for your messages.

@LouiseMadetheBestBroccoliPasta much of what you wrote really resonated with me. I very much appreciate you taking the time to write it all down (and the decision tree is helpful!) H is away at the moment and missing us and therefore much more solicitous / thoughtful / needy than usual. And this is how I get stuck in the cycle because everything feels fine (when he isn't here and we just have short conversations once a day) and lose the resolve to try and improve things until there is another flare up and it all escalates again and I just feel I want out.

@olderbutwiser I definitely don't just want a marriage therapist to tell me I'm right - I've thought about that quite a lot and tried to anticipate what he/she might say about what I'm doing to exacerbate the problems between us so I'm braced for hearing some home truths. But I do agree that if I'm dragging him there it won't work. I did actually try solo therapy for myself over a decade ago when I was really struggling with DH and wanted to try to work out whether in fact I was the problem. But I did find I spent the whole time talking about him and the issues with him. In the end, I found it hard to commit to, I felt guilty about the money I was spending on it and the time it took and stopped abruptly, which the therapist, understandably, didn't love!

@Newgirls the weekly chat is a good idea in principle and I'd have been up for that until a few weeks ago but I feel we've got to the stage where having an independent mediator would be helpful when talking about any of the big stuff.

"H is away at the moment and missing us and therefore much more solicitous / thoughtful / needy than usual. And this is how I get stuck in the cycle because everything feels fine (when he isn't here and we just have short conversations once a day) and lose the resolve to try and improve things until there is another flare up and it all escalates again and I just feel I want out."

I've had these problems with my H for so long that I can still remember watching my 7 yo on the local merry-go-round, which had one section of horses shrouded because they were broken, and thinking, "This is my marriage". My daughter is now 17. The marital disharmony merry-go-round goes remorsely and hypnotically round and round and round. Nothing changes except your energy and will to live, which become that little more sapped every time the broken horses come round again. The only way out is to get off the merry-go-round.

"I did actually try solo therapy for myself over a decade ago when I was really struggling with DH and wanted to try to work out whether in fact I was the problem. But I did find I spent the whole time talking about him and the issues with him. In the end, I found it hard to commit to, I felt guilty about the money I was spending on it and the time it took"

I think women are socialised to try to take the blame for marital problems (and anything else that goes wrong). It might also give them a feeling of power, because they can change themselves whereas they can't change others. But it usually means that they compromise even more than before, while the self-absorbed H makes no effort at all and changes nothing. Eventually it leads to a sort of erasure of the woman, who has squeezed herself smaller and smaller to fit what the H wants and to keep the marriage going. And then comes menopause, which, as Margaret Atwood quipped, "is the pause women take to reconsider men". It forces you to face what is going on.

It's OK to feel unhappy with your H's behaviours. He's a grown man with full agency. He's fully responsible for what he does. He knows you're unhappy and frequently pissed off with him. Does he do anything to change the cycle? Does he listen to you, read articles you give him, search for and read marriage help books, talk online with others, get IC? I doubt it. And if he did, it would probably only be to validate his conclusion, which is that it's your fault, you're "difficult" or "emotional", and all the poor henpecked dear can do is endure your outbursts and wait for you to re-enter that dulled tired half-dead state where he can keep getting what he wants from you.

You don't have to go to IC to see what YOU are doing wrong in the marriage. You can go to IC to process your feelings and to create a decision tree for getting out.

I didn't find MC helpful because the MC's focus was - correctly - the marriage, meaning the communication between me and H. The MC quickly saw that I was a good communicator but said I was not making communication a safe space for H, I was too forceful. I said, "H doesn't listen until I become forceful". I told her the story of how I'd been asking my H for years to tear the lettuce leaves destined for a salad into bite-sized pieces, not giant chunks that drip dressing on your chin when you try to put them in your mouth. We eat salads a lot, so this problem came up often. Each time I had to check the bowl and say, "The lettuce leaves are too big again" or tear them smaller myself. Then one day I was in a hurry and poured the dressing over the too-big lettuce leaves. I shouted at him and stormed to my office where I had what I now recognise to be a panic attack. Only then did he start tearing the lettuce leaves into smaller pieces. The MC asked H what he thought about this and he said defensively he didn't realise that it had annoyed me so much but that he was tearing the leaves smaller now, so it wasn't a problem anymore. I said that I have a million stories like this, also about much bigger issues, it's not about the lettuce leaves, it's that you don't hear what I'm saying. The MC said that maybe I should write him an email or letter instead of getting cross and I said I've tried that with important things and it's like the words fly through one eye out the other without hitting his brain. So then, as a training exercise, the MC started working with us on another long-standing issue, namely, him leaving cupboard doors open. I had sometimes hurt myself walking quickly around the corner and bashing my head or shin on a cupboard door that he left open. So we practiced me asking him kindly, "Please can you close all cupboard doors?" and he said that of course he would. In the 2 weeks before our next MC session, he had left a cupboard door open seven times. He argued with me about the number. We went to the MC another 3 times. Each time he'd left a cupboard door open at least once. He kept arguing that he was getting better. I stopped the MC sessions because the progress was so incremental and so minute that I felt literally ill with frustration after each session.

In IC, he learned that he saw me as a sort of irritable but unconditionally loving mummy figure who would never leave and just keep helping him endlessly to understand. He understands now that how wrong this was, and how it led to me having to parent him, which I never ever wanted and really resented having to do.

So MC could not have helped in our case, because nearly all of the problems in our marriage stemmed from a fundamental mindset in one partner that only that person could change.

I'm not saying that MC won't help in your case, though. Only you can know whether it could work. And maybe you'd simply want to try it so that you know you've done your best.

Oh dear, I'm getting that dull sinking feeling reading your messages because it's all so familiar. Our dishwasher is a lettuce leaves equivalent: I do all the cooking and, on a good day, H's contribution is to load the dishwasher except that, when it's obviously got too much in, he'll keep shoving more in, putting the plates too close together just so he doesn't have to deal with the hassle of washing what doesn't fit in by hand. So they don't wash properly and I end up rewashing them all at the end of the cycle, which is much harder because the dirt has dried on. So now, to avoid an argument, I just stand there repacking as he packs.

I love the Margaret Atwood quote though, and have often thought something similar myself. I'm late 40s and def perimenopausal (not that we discuss that...)

Thanks again for your thoughtful posts.

Marriage counselling was excellent for us.
Mainly because we had to go there each week and dedicate the time to our relationship. We used to go for a pint after.
I think that if one person cant be bothered it tells you everything you need to know about how much they value the other person.
She pointed out ways that our childhood affected our patterns. The main thing he realised was that often his annoyance was with something else but directed at me unfairly. I learned that he was poor at picking up emotional cues and thought I was angry/annoyed with him when really I was frustrated or sad.
I loved writing down issues during the week and having a safe space to bring them up.
Ultimately neither of us wanted to split up and we were both prepared to take the time to make improvements. I don't think it can be onesided.

Thank you @Tropicalsunshine it's really good to hear positive stories too. I'm glad it worked for you

I agree with a poster upthread who observed that if you need counselling in the first place, there's a strong likelihood it's over and you're just on gradual fade-out from there. And £££'s lighter

I don’t think needing counselling means it’s all over - people can learn all sorts of bad behaviours from childhood and beyond that they bring into marriage so it can help to see those objectively. Counselling could help identify patterns. Useful for the marriage and all relationships/friendships probably

We've done more than 10 sessions of couple's therapy and I've started to feel even more confused than ever after the sessions. I think it can be a fantastic way to make the couple work better. Not really in our case. Very likely that it's a sign our couple has an abusive element. There is a power imbalance that my OH needs to maintain at all costs. Anyway just flagging this in case there is a similar power imbalance in your relationship as therapy can drive you even further to the ground. Your daydream about getting a little apartment to yourself sounds great. And belated Happy Mother's Day! Your kids won't forget every year I promise.

Direct experience of brief use of Relate was that the only positive was that we both hated going so that gave us something in common. We stopped very quickly though (and stayed together).

A friend who has stayed married has strongly recommended the book Rapport. You do both have to read it though.

I’ve reported jackhoovers post for advertising.

Thanks - was just about to do that!

I'm sorry to hear that @Catmousedoghouse and thanks for your kind message.

I think power imbalance is an issue in our relationship for lots of reasons. DH earns a lot more than I do for a start and there is real complexity around that but also he is just so much more sure of himself about everything than I am. He is very confident he's right the vast majority of the time, and for a long time I think believed that but at the same time harboured resentment without really being able to pin down why. I find when I have a week on my own with the DC I'm able to see things a bit more clearly and, while I feel less anger towards him because we're not actually in each other's space, I also understand a bit better how I'm negatively affected by his being around. I think a combination of his job, his upbringing and how society conditions men has made him feel he needs to be in control of everything. I've just noticed recently that he will often tell me what a good week I've had regardless of what has actually happened - there's an implicit suggestion that I need help to see things positively. So, I'll tell him what has happened with the DC (because I know he feels excluded when he's away so I try to keep him in the loop) and regardless of what has happened (meltdowns, things breaking, sick animals and vet trips) he's say things like "well it sounds as if it's been a really great week". It's happened with bigger things too e.g. DD1's birth was quite traumatic - emergency CS, both of us in hospital for a week due to complications. But when I tried to talk about it when she was younger he'd say, don't make it negative, it was an amazing experience. And it was, for him, but for me it was really stressful.

I'm over simplifying a bit but it's like there's a constant drip drip reminder of how good I have it. And I do, I really do. I am so grateful for all the good things in my life but it's just dawning on me the enormous amount of peddling under the surface that I'm doing on my side.

There's also the reverse of that, if I ever say anything negatively about a friend or relative just normal 'so and so is annoying me because' he'll bring it up again and again even if I've moved on or am generally positive about them. He'll say things like 'yeah but they really annoy you because you said...' I suppose I feel a marriage is a safe space to talk about things that annoy us but that there should be an understanding that you can find someone irritating at times and also then be allowed to change your mind. I certainly let him do that e.g. most people annoy him a lot, and I don't keep bringing up his previous grievances when he says anything positive about someone. Generally I find it much easier to make friends / build relationships than he does but it's like he's saying 'you're not as nice as you think you are'.

Sorry that was a big detour prompted by your post.

I do have a question though: can you say a bit more about how you feel the sessions you have had have made things worse? Has the therapist picked up on the power imbalance, and is he/she encouraging your OH to recognise that? If you'd rather not post about it feel free to DM me. Thank you

Thanks @Newgirls good to hear another positive perspective, and I do believe it's possible to unlearn patterns of behaviour. Both of us would really benefit from facing up to the things we do that aren't helpful in our relationships with people in the wider world as well as with each other. I know, for example, that DH often has quite confrontational relationships with people at work (and two of his siblings often do as well) and understanding all that better would be really beneficial. So, if I can convince him that it'd be useful, I think it could potentially make his whole life a lot happier.

"I've just noticed recently that he will often tell me what a good week I've had regardless of what has actually happened"

This and the CS story: they suggest that he sees you as a domestic appliance. He's not really interested in you personally as a human, he just likes what you do for him. You can't have problems, because then it affects the smooth running of his life, which is annoying.

It's a dehumanising and disrespectful mindset. And unfortunately, it's very common in men raised in patriarchy. bell hooks said:

"The first act of violence that patriarchy demands of males is not violence toward women. Instead patriarchy demands of all males that they engage in acts of psychic self-mutilation, that they kill off the emotional parts of themselves. If an individual is not successful in emotionally crippling himself, he can count on patriarchal men to enact rituals of power that will assault his self-esteem."

This self/societal-mutilation means that men don't understand their emotions. The resulting low emotional intelligence towards themselves and to others is the cause of many devastating personal, interpersonal, and societal harms. For example, men have a 3-4 fold higher suicide rate than women. 96% of prisoners are male. Men are unique in having the capacity for family annihilation. Men are twice as likely to cause fatal road crashes. Wars - the Ukraine and Iran wars right now are a direct result of patriarchy.

This stuff is incredibly deep-rooted. MC can't fix that, because the problem is not poor communication, it's a fundamental mindset that places him as The Prize and you as a domestic appliance, placed on earth to serve him and make his life better.

From what you’ve written it is quite complex as you will bring your own feelings of being ‘less’ confident into things. Not working or him making more money does bring your own feelings into this. Just flagging up as it does take 2 people to make a dynamic. I say this being on your side - and also recognising this in myself! It’s easy to blame the other when we bring our own issues too

I think there is a midlife element here where it’s useful to us when husbands being in money and give us means to raise the kids and when that need reduces and our oestrogen falls away we so think - what is the point of them. It’s about finding a new partnership now raising the kids is less a focus and working out a new dynamic - or not as case might be

From what you've said, I think individual counselling might be more helpful for you. I don't think it sounds as if he would be open to change and I don't think that counselling can ever really change someone's underlying personality. Your difficulty sounds to me more about working out whether you are willing to continue as you are or whether you would be happier to leave, overlaid with the power imbalance you mention.

My then fiancé and I went to a married couple who did counselling together.

It didn't keep us together, but it did enable me to hear what my fiance was saying from an external point of view. I could tell that the counsellors didn't think what he was saying was right. I felt very underconfident in my decisions at that time after years of being put down, so it was helpful.

"There's also the reverse of that, if I ever say anything negatively about a friend or relative just normal 'so and so is annoying me because' he'll bring it up again and again even if I've moved on or am generally positive about them. He'll say things like 'yeah but they really annoy you because you said...' I suppose I feel a marriage is a safe space to talk about things that annoy us but that there should be an understanding that you can find someone irritating at times and also then be allowed to change your mind."

This is very familiar to me. My H also did that. It was because he wanted me to look only at him, 100% of my focus had to be on him, because that made him feel whole and safe (patrarchy creates an echoing internal hole in men). So my family, my friends, and even the kids (!) were seen as competitors for my attention. He would relentlessly rub in anything negative that I'd ever said about anyone:

"What? I thought you said you didn't want to see Margaret anymore."
"No. I said 3 weeks ago that I was cross with her and that I needed to cool down. We've made up, everything is fine now. I told you that last week."
"Oh."

1 week later:
"What? You called Margaret? But didn't you say that you didn't want to see her anymore?"
"No! I never said that! And anyway, I TOLD you, we're fine now."

"Oh."

1 month later:
"Margaret's coming here for lunch? I thought you said you didn't want to see her anymore."
"FCS how many times have I told you this! I never said that, and Margaret and I are fine now! There's no problem!"
"Oh."

It looks hapless and thoughtless, but it's not that innocent, and it's harmful. It's one of the strategies used by abusive men to isolate their wives. Not saying your H is abusive, but this behaviour stems from the controlling mindset that also leads to men abusing their wife.

OP my relationship has some similarities to yours. I noticed that your DH was away a lot and you were working and taking the parent load - same for me, this can drive a wedge sadly and it is worth hearing each other out on how it made you both feel. Counselling (for a year once a fortnight after a 20year relationship) has pulled us together, let us see the good and bad, and been an essential part of our growth as individuals and as a couple. I found it to be exposing but cathartic. It is no wonder that 20 years and having kids has an impact on your relationship, counselling gives space to talk it all through and decide on how to go forward whether together in a new way or to part. We have stopped counselling now but refer to it a lot as we are still working on our relationship and making our family life the best it can be. So I’d say give it a try.

Thank you all so much for your posts - im
reading then all carefully:

@Newgirls really good points you make and I’m sure midlife (and estrogen!) play a big part. Just to be clear, I do and have always worked and I’ve never seen it as a transactional relationship whereby he earns the money so I can stay at home and I no longer need that because the DC are soon to leave home. But he does earn substantially more than me and I have done substantially more to manage our domestic life. And he has had a bigger say in decision-making, which I have allowed/enabled because he earns more and therefore it seemed ‘fair’. FWIW i encouraged him to leave his job on several occasions when he wasn’t happy, we talked extensively about it and I presented other alternatives eg me going back to full-time and a better paid job, him retraining etc but he didn’t pick up on any of those options. What’s playing a bigger part in my mind is that there isn’t the same (perceived) imperative to create a stable home life for the DC now, which has made the possibility of moving on more viable though still something I would really dread!

we have definitely both contributed to where we are though. I really do recognise that but until now I’ve been the only one willing to address it.

one other factor that affects both sides and that I haven’t mentioned is neurodivergence. Not intending to drip feed but I didn’t expect to get into this much depth on the thread! I have ADHD, which is undoubtedly very annoying to live with. DH would almost certainly meet the threshold for autism diagnosis. He has acknowledged this might be the case and other people in his life have suggested it (a close relative of his was recently diagnosed as well) but I don’t think he would ever seek an official diagnosis. Anyway, he really struggles to accept things not being done the way he thinks they should be done and I am terrible at sticking to rigid plans so you can see how the problems might arise! I have therefore been looking for counsellors with experience in this area.

@LouiseMadetheBestBroccoliPasta the thing about my human foibles interfering with the smooth running of his life actually made me laugh - very relatable!

@Seahorse1978 im really glad it has worked well for you. It’s also v helpful to hear the length of time it took