How to deal with parental alienation? 11 year old

[yoursweetpotatoesarebland]

I’m not sure if this is the right board really so if it isn’t please tell me and I’ll ask for it to be moved, it is kind of a relationships issue as it concerns my 11 year old son and me..

My ex husband and divorced several years ago - we separated in 2021 but the divorce took serval years as he wouldn’t disclose any financial details, he was very controlling and abusive at the time and ended up with a non molestation order. He didn’t come out of it very well as the court found against him for non disclosure, lying and quitting his job deliberately etc so I ended up with almost all of (what was left) of our assets.

He has continued to want to fight ever since tbh. Nothing changes and to be honest I’m exhausted with it. He was desperate to have the kids (16, 13 and 11) half the time which I agreed to. Then after a month the older two said it was a nightmare and told him they wanted to switch back - apparently if the stay is longer than an evening then every conversation goes back to what a terrible person I am, how I stole all his money, I’m “a fucking monster” how he’s poor, depressed etc etc etc. I don’t bad mouth him and when talking about anything to with him with them I try as much as possible to give a neutral and non emotional view. I also don’t want them exposed to stressful adult topics over which they have no control and he’s “poor” as he quit his six figure salary to work in a hospice 6 days before our divorce final hearing. He is relentlessly a nightmare over literally every issue - my daughter had a diving session on his weekend he sends me the bill for parking. School disco on his day - he won’t book it. If I send them in weather appropriate clothes which fit at the start of the holiday I get them back in a ill fitting short sleeve tee, shorts so small they won’t button up, wrapped in a fleece blanket for warmth in November - so that he doesn’t need to buy them clothes and keeps what I’ve sent. I was a sahm for 15 years and he was the breadwinner - I’m working now but at the start of my career and not earning much. He pays for nothing and pays minimum cms - I do my very best but it makes me so angry.

The biggest difficulty is his attitude towards my youngest child. It’s like he’s grooming him. He stayed 50/50 when the others changed back and is extremely conflict avoidant and likely autistic. His dad will work all the days he has him in the holidays and give him unfettered access to the internet on his tablet. But worse is the constant stream of poison about me into his ear. I can kind of tell as he uses phrases sometimes when he’s cross or comes back that aren’t his words and my other two say that their dad just can’t get through a day without speaking badly of me. I’m beginning to worry about the impact on him and I don’t know what to do.

so far I’ve been empathetic about how difficult it must be to hear angry words when it’s mentioned and I’m careful never to be critical of his dad. I just don’t know what to do tbh - it’s like he’s so consumed with anger he can’t parent.

Any advice would be so much appreciated

I was told by my solicitor that kids vote with their feet at 11. For DD she had just turned 12. Chances are your youngest will get fed up with it and stop going too.
In my opinion you’re doing all the right things, stay neutral.

If he was abusive towards you when you were married to him he was always but always going to act the self same when it came to the children. He has indeed used these children as weapons to further punish you for facing the gall to leave him because in his head he is the perfect specimen.

If this contact is not court ordered I would stop sending your youngest to him. Your child is too young to realise that he is being groomed and or otherwise manipulated by his abusive father.

I would also seek legal advice in addition to talking to Women’s Aid,

He probably only wanted the kids half the time so as to get out of paying child maintenance. These types know how to milk the system for all it’s worth.

I’d stop my child going. Unfettered access to the internet at 11 with no supervision is very very dangerous and it’s neglect. No way in hell would I allow that to continue - I would go to court or reduce contact or stop all contact. Have you got evidence of his behaviour?
get legal advice -I wouldn’t be waiting for my son to decide to not go…

best of luck. He sounds like a c*.
xoxo

He seems really money focused. Could the 50/50 just be financial?

If so I’d try gradually and slowly reducing time whilst being clear it didn’t affect maintenance and see what happens.

So, for example, “Fred wants to do a club on Tuesday nights and he says he’d rather sleep at mine after. Would that be ok? No need to chance cms as it only lasts for 6 weeks”.

The difficulty is with reducing contact is that I think my youngest would not want that. He says he’s happy with the 50/50. I’m not sure how much of that is him and how much is that he knows doing it would be very difficult and his dad would put a lot of pressure on him. I think it was only possible for the older ones as they’re older and did it together so they could support each other - they said he would be very difficult and put emotional pressure on them.
He does seem to relate to his dad very strongly too eg he got annoyed with me the other day and shouted that his dad is right about me and with the school disco: dad said he couldn’t book it as he didn’t have parent pay. I emailed him the code (which he already had!) but he said he couldn’t set up the account, ds was angrily telling me how the school hadn’t set up the account so dad couldn’t book it. It was very clear to every one else that that is a lie he just didn’t want to pay. I know this dynamic sounds toxic and tbh I think it is but I don’t know how to break out of it. If I want to avoid it I have to accept that I pay everything.
I don’t have any evidence re internet use except what my older children say. They say they try and talk to dad about it since a lot of the content is really inappropriate but he ignores them.

it’s really hard to know what to do for the best

Your ex husband is already filling your youngest child's head with rubbish, allowing him unrestricted access to the Internet and weaponising him against you. You need to stop sending him to his father before he is thoroughly indoctrinated. Please speak to Women's Aid for advice and support.

OP

re your comment:
"The difficulty is with reducing contact is that I think my youngest would not want that. He says he’s happy with the 50/50. I’m not sure how much of that is him and how much is that he knows doing it would be very difficult and his dad would put a lot of pressure on him".

He is more than likely parroting what his dad is priming him to say; these are all his words rather than your child's. How does he travel to his dad's?.

This individual is still abusing you and in turn all your DC even now you;re divorced. He has not changed at all and his objective is to win at all costs. He could not give a monkeys about any of his children frankly and still very much hates you. In his head it is all your fault, never his own.

You're the parent here and this re access is not a decision that should be made by him. He does not know and is too young to realise he is being groomed and otherwise indoctrinated by his abusive father. You're not in a court of law so do not need evidence; what your kids are saying has been enough for them to decide to not to see their dad any more.

You do not state if contact is court ordered or not but either way your son needs to stop seeing his father before any more emotional harm to him is done. Do indeed talk to Womens Aid for their further support too.

I agree that you need to make the choice - your son is too young to understand that he is being used and manipulated by his dad- he doesn’t know what either of those things are, nor does he know what a ‘good’ relationship with his dad / a dad looks like.

I get the impression from your posts you are looking to the kids for guidance over what to do- I would agree with this way IF the relationship was healthy.
In this case, it’s abusive and that means you cannot allow it at all. There’s not really any choice to be made - this fathers’ behaviour is entirely detrimental to his children’s lives. What choice is it you think you have??? Really if you do nothing you risk listing your son to him when he is 14/15/16 to probably get him back when he’s 17 / 18 / 19 with huge behavioural issues.

My ex did this. Right down to keeping all the clothes and sending them home in far too small.

I didn’t even try to be neutral. I said “I had a different eco of that” “I don’t agree with your father’s interpretation of that”. Never outright negative but I most certainly didn’t try to stay neutral while he manipulated that. Then I made a big effort to teach my kids to think for themselves and appreciate we can like different things. One easy example was a colour my dd likes and I hate, some foods also good examples- gave me the perfect opertunity to say things like “I really don’t like that/agree that’s nice but you can have different opinions to me and that’s completely fine!” Saying this lots means when I get told daddy said I’m xyz I can say “I had a different experience of that and have a different opinion ” the start contrast between me and their dad was obvious to them after a while- with me they can say what they want and think what they want and it’s fine to feel different to each other but at dads they have to conform to the mum hate.

I did also start keeping their coats and shoes back from dads as I simply couldn’t afford to replace constantly. I bought large bundles of cloths on eBay/FB marketplace and sent them in the worst clothes from that. When the kids ask to wear their favourite top etc I said you can if you want I’m just worried daddy will keep it like he kept your coat/shoes etc. I know this is counter to all advice but if I wasn’t honest I would be lying to cover for him and fuck am I doing that. After quite a few treasureEd items were kept by daddy even when the kids hadn’t forgotten they learnt for themselves to say they won’t take x item because daddy won’t let it come home.

them you absolutely have to grey rock. Look that up. Even to the kids repeating his bile you calmly say you disagree and experienced that differently then change the subject/play a fun game etc etc. don’t ride to it EVER.

eventually my ex got a new partner and suddenly became dad of the year while he caught her in his trap. I had some vile off her and again I didn’t react. My kids started enjoying going to daddy as new gf was a great step mum to them. It’s actually really sad as now he’s got her pregnant and trapped he’s back to being abusive but to her not me and the kids witness it and have just been dumped by him. im now waiting for an incident bad enough that I will take it back to court because currently we have a court order and I have to send them. I make sure I tell the kids that when I make them go (when he wants them as he cancels more than he actually has them now as I never react). My disabled son carer has made multiple reports over things he’s repeated about his dad. My son’s social worker does nothing to act on the multiple reports because of the court order. It’s fucking disgusting system. But the best you can do is not feed his desire to upset you and teach your kids to think for themselves.

oh also I may also be wrong for this one: my ex also tells the kids I spent all his money and he has no money as he give it all to me. I actually cannot afford to pay for a lot of what they do with their dad and I’ve made the odd comment about what would the kids like us to stop spending on to afford the thing they are asking for? And when they say daddy says he can’t afford the couple quid for the thing they want I can’t help but say that’s a choice he could if he didn’t have his luxary holidays etc just like I could afford to get them the expensive toy they want if I chose not to buy food for a week it’s all about priorities and decisions on where to spend the money. My kids tried really hard to name things I spend money on myself and then came out with their own obvsevation to me that daddy has way more nice stuff and spending money than me and yet he spends nothing in them and steals all the clothes I buy for them. I don’t even react to that and say “I’m sorry that’s your experience” again leaving them to think for themselves just offering comfort for the feelings they came to themselves

It’s hell for the kid in the equation.

Absolute hell.

And in all honesty I don’t think any of the adults involved or around us were equipped to manage it, help us cope and insulate us from what turned out to be life long damage.

So if I were able to sneak back into the past and whisper in a few adult ears, I’d be saying “you wouldn’t attempt brain surgery on them, so stop trying to attempt another highly skilled task on them and pull professionals in, for the kids, with the kids, focused on the kids”.

It’s a lot cheaper than the accumulated losses of the “poorer outcomes” columns we tend to end up in on spreadsheets.

I really feel this @BlooomUnleashed - I want so much to protect them. It must be hellish to have to listen to a parent slating your other parent and also incredibly stressful to have a constant commentary about how your parent has no money. I have paid for therapy and he now gets ongoing cbt for anxiety through his school.

I am quite isolated- I don’t have another partner or much family to give me advice so genuinely if there’s something I can do to make it better tell me because sometimes I just feel lost with it.

I agree with every comment but practically how do I do it? His dad picks him up from school in the car, he would usually walk back to my house. The contact isn’t court ordered, just agreed between us but he would absolutely take me to court if necessary (he’s very litigious - he once took me to court to try and have me ordered to do his school runs for him) and then what?
To an extent they are the age where their views are determinative too - he’s taken me to court before and that’s what I was told by cafcass. So practically- what can I do?

@Burntt i do do that - my older ones tell me in a tone of incredulity or of being so fed up with it. They are quite negative about him regularly - I don’t want to join in with that more to help them deal with it.. they ask me about things and I usually say something neutrally presented but acknowledge people have different perspectives.
We do discuss at length that other people have different views but I’m not sure how much goes in with my youngest. he’s quite a young 11 - and conflict really frightens him. Even discussing anything related to his dad makes him very stressed and almost unable to engage with me,

I know it should be something I can take control of but in practise it doesn’t feel like I can. I don’t know. I just feel so lost.