When do you know it’s the end?

[MilkshakeMoon]

My DH and I have been together for almost 20 years (since school). Married for 9 years. We have 2 DC’s ages 4 and 6. He has struggled since the birth of our second child. He accepts that whilst he would never wish to change our children, he realises that his limit was one and he struggles massively with two children. Things have been a bit rocky for the last 4 years as a result, but we’ve muddled through with highs and lows. Things reached a peak last Summer and I issued him an ultimatum that he needed to seek help or we would separate. He went to see a therapist three times but he didn’t find it beneficial at all, and also saw his GP who prescribed anti-depressants, which he took for 2 weeks and decided he didn’t want to take them anymore, so he stopped.

The last 4 years have really taken their toll on our relationship. When we are on a date night etc things are lovely, but they hurt me because it feels like a glimpse of the ‘old DH’ and it makes me so sad that he can’t be like this whilst juggling family life.

We both work full-time in professional jobs, he works shifts which means that he often has time to himself during the day whilst the kids are at school/nursery, whilst I WFH and work my hours around the kids. He has a hobby that he pursues regularly, often for half-days or full-days, several times a week even just for a few hours. I have an active social life and see friends regularly, whereas a lot of his friendships have drifted since parenthood and so know that he feels lonely. I know he is sad at losing his friendships and time pursuing his hobby - but I have little sympathy because he doesn’t have any appreciation for the burden put on me as a result, I think he has it pretty good with his hobby time! We both contribute equally to chores etc and he does his ‘fair share’ with the kids - he just doesn’t seem able to enjoy it, especially with both as he gets stressed.

I just don’t know when to ‘call it’ or keep persevering and hoping that things will get better as the kids get older? The thought of our children having a broken home is heartbreaking (both sets of our parents are still together). We are comfortable financially, but that lifestyle would change for both of us if we each were supporting a single household. We argue, and I know the kids are aware even at their young age and this breaks my heart. They make comments that we are always fighting etc. I know that a separated home with happy parents is better than an unhappy family unit, but when do you stop trying to be happy together? When do you say enough is enough? I’m not sure counselling would be beneficial given DH’s experience with therapy last year. Our families are so entwined - I’m really close to his family as I’ve been a part of it for more than half of my life. The thought of making the cut is so daunting that I feel I can’t think straight to know whether to do it or to keep trying.

Any words of wisdom would be appreciated.

Turning point for me was realising I was jealous of my friends divorce

When youre asking mumsnet, id say its pretty close to the end

This is very sad as it seems like the main problem is that he's unhappy with being a father to 2 children, and was unprepared for it mentally it seems.

Do you think it would improve anything, and would it be financially do-able if one of you went part time?

From reading your post I would say that enough is enough now. Your kids are aware that you as their parents are fighting constantly.

Better to be apart than to be together and miserable as you are now. Your children are not glue and nor should they be used as such to bind you and he together. Be brave and make the break sooner rather than later. Leave this selfish man to his bloody hobby. (What hobby is it?) because that to him
is also mine important than family life.

He's not making much of an effort is he? You gave him an ultimatum, he paid it lip service and carried on as before. You have let him and in so doing, shown him that you won't follow through.

How long are you prepared to flog this particular dead horse?

This is his life though, he has two children. He needs to accept this, if you separate he’ll have them on his own half the week? Or will he be an every other weekend Disney Dad?
Frank discussion needed - what would help make him a better Dad . That’s what he needs to be.

It is very sad, which is why it is all so difficult. No affair, no big fall out, no one big drama to spell the end - just a slow death that I feel is in his hands to prevent.

i was part-time after the birth of our first child. I decided to return full-time after the birth of our second because of these issues as I need to be in the best place financially for myself if we did split. It feels like a catch 22 - I could go part-time and it could help with our issues and we live happily ever after, or I go part-time and it still ends in divorce and I’m worse off. I’m not willing to take that gamble without more signs from him that he will make changes too (part-time not an option for his role).

I went through something very similar. My husband (been together nearly 20 years also) was a good dad to our eldest no red flags - life seemed good bar the usual niggles about clothes left on floor washing up undone etc. we never argued! When twins arrived when eldest was 4 he went to pieces. He’d left within the year citing that he couldn’t cope with family life and it wasn’t what he wanted. That he’d preferred being a family of 3 to 5. We are divorced and he hasn’t seen any of the children in 7 months now.

it’s taken a long time for me to come to terms with how it ended and why. I’d have preferred he’d had an affair than the fact he didn’t want/enjoy our beautiful family.

if children are noticing the arguments and the fact that their dad is half checked out then it’s not fair to continue this life for them. You give him an ultimatum - shape up or ship out

Are you enough of a couple to look seriously at your marriage perhaps with a therapist and work out some way to live together more happily at least until your children are older? It could only work if he seriously wanted that as well as you.

I think this is what I am going to suggest to him. I really want to try everything that I can to save our marriage, and trying therapy might help us move forward in a healthier away, whether that is together or apart.

Most people you speak to about this will say they wish they had split up sooner, not later.

PP is correct, you are flogging a dead horse. Take control. Prepare everything you will need to survive the split, and get it done.

There is a sunny side of the street waiting for you.

Good luck OP.

Couple therapy seems the only solution and at least you have tried

It's definitely worth trying couples counselling in this situation. Just because individual therapy didn't work for him, it may be different this time - for a start, you can make sure he commits to more than three sessions! It sounds like there is still hope for you if he could work through some of his issues.

Does he know you're considering divorce? How does he feel about that?

Stop flogging the dead horse. He prefers his hobby and his work to family life. He’s also probably pissed off that all your attention is now on your kids rather than him; the big man he thinks he is.

Do you really think that such a man would be willing to be counselled again?. I doubt it very much and no decent therapist would ever suggest staying together until the kids are older (and how much older exactly?). It’s just another version of kicking the can down the road. Feel the fear and do it anyway.

And it’s far better to be from a so called broken home than to remain in one as you’ve been doing.

You also gave him an ultimatum which you did not follow through on. Such things too can only be issued one time because further ones lose all their power. He was half hearted about seeking help and of course it has not worked. It was not going to work either because he is inherently selfish and self absorbed.

Fucking hell. Isn't it nice that he can just walk away from his children like that?

I have often seen you post useful perspectives but this feels like an AI response - no acknowledgement of the nuances .
. You are making some assumptions ‘he’s probably pissed off with you’ . ‘Big man that he is ‘ . ‘Doubt he would want counselling ‘ ‘he is inherently selfish and self absorbed ‘
Do you know him ?
We can’t decide when ‘is enough ‘ - that’s the OP’s decision.
OP , would you consider undertaking some counselling yourself to help you work through your thoughts and feelings . And you could suggest some joint sessions .
Either way it would help you feel more in control of your choices .

It’s not an AI response.

and as for supposed nuances what’s that got to do with anything?. No I don’t know him but I sure recognise the type as do many others who have stated similar. These types of men don’t change.

This man knows full well what he’s doing and he cannot cope with two children, diddums. He also does his hobby several times a week. When is he ever home?. What would you call such a man then if not self absorbed and selfish?.

He has been to see a therapist a mere three times and did not find it beneficial (that person likely gave him short shrift) so what makes you think he would be willing to be counselled now by someone else?. Op cannot save this marriage on her own no matter how hard she tries.

To clarify, he works a shift-pattern so there are regularly mid-week days when the kids are at school/nursery and I am working and he pursues his hobby then. I gave this example, not because he is dipping out of family life, but because he has lots of free time to pursue his hobby and yet it doesn’t seem to be enough to make him happy.

I must add some defence for him here, and perhaps it was my fault for venting in my original post, but he is doing everything ‘expected’ of him - fair share of chores, cooking, childcare, shopping, gardening etc. He DOES everything he needs to do as a husband/father (I wouldn’t allow it if he didn’t, I work full-time too in a stressful job so I’m not willing/able to pick up the slack), my issue is that he doesn’t seem to enjoy family life. He is stressed and irritable etc. but he isn’t the usual MN useless husband/father - this is likely down to poor mental health triggered by the birth of our second child, and my frustration is down to his lack of seeking help for himself, but I also have sympathy for his struggles, as I would hope he would have if it were the other way around. I posted because it is wearing me down, and I am struggling to know when to keep trying or call it a day.

i have found a lot of the posts very helpful, and I am going to speak with him this week about seeking counselling/therapy as a couple, but I will also look into individual therapy for me too.

He has no sympathy for you and if the shoe was on the other foot he would not be at all forgiving. He has everything on a plate here and it’s still not enough for him. What does he want?.

How did he react to you being pregnant the second time?.

His mental health is his sole responsibility. Not at all yours.

He went to see a therapist a mere three times before quitting so why do you think he would be amenable into being counselled?. If he refuses to go I would go on my own. At least you could then talk in both a calm and safe environment.

Our second child was very much wanted and tried for. We did (deliberately) have a small age gap so 2 under 2, which I think with hindsight massively contributed to his struggles.

I was more disappointed in him giving up on the medication than the therapy tbh. From reading up about therapy since I think in the panic of the ultimatum and quickly booking a therapist, we didn’t put the time and thought into seeking out the right therapist, and it didn’t sound like a good fit. I’ve been looking into different specialisms/recommendations today to make sure that we find someone suitable this time.

He has shown effort to ‘make life easier for me’, with the suggestion of me going part-time (but as I explained above I’m not prepared to do that whilst things are rocky - him going part-time is not an option in his job), and he’s offered to get a cleaner to take some of the household pressure off of is both. I have faults here too, because I took this as a dig at me not coping and keeping on top of things, but it is something that I should give more thought to.

I will ask him to attend counselling, and I think the answer to ‘when is enough’ will be in his answer. I do have faith that he doesn’t want to lose me or our family. We have been together for more than half of our lives and there is a lot of love between us - but we shall see!

I would not go part time at all. This does not address the crux of the matter .

What is he doing re his mental health now?. He’s already been to a therapist and tried anti depressants for two weeks before stopping. HE needs to find another therapist to work with, that is not your responsibility.

I fail to see what more you can yourself do because this is his issue.

@EarthSight
yup. It’s his loss. He had it all and he blew it

It's difficult to offer the words of wisdom you are looking for on an Internet forum where we don't know much about you or your DH e.g. the amount of effort he is putting in and what particularly he finds stressful. I can offer a perspective though from being married 40 years and having experienced something similar many years ago when our second DC was born i.e. my DH wad a good man who pulled equal weight on domestic stuff but found it difficult being a parent to two. Maybe the difficulties were not quite as severe as those you describe but we're still together with generally a good relationship with both DCs and over the years he managed to become a good dad. There are many parents who find the early years difficult but build great relationships with their kids later.

Whether you stay together or separate, I think your DH has a responsibility to ensure he can be a good enough Dad. I'd start with this and hopefully the rest will follow. Rather than (or as well as) counselling focused on your relationship or his or your wellbeing, could he benefit from a parenting course? I wondered if he finds parenting stressful because the kids push emotional buttons from his own childhood and he gets lost in this rather than developing simple strategies for managing their behaviour. I found a group run by our HV really helpful for reflecting and finding new strategies.

Understanding what he finds stressful and finding ways to manage this seems crucial, though that's his responsibility not yours. Of course you might decide you can't carry on like this and there will be many people who are glad they separated in a situation like yours. But there are also many in long term relationships who weathered stressful childhood years. Managing two careers and two children IS difficult. Can you revisit this with him? Have you explained fully to him the reasons for your reluctance to go PT? Has he looked at new roles which allow him to work PT? Whether he likes it or not, he is a father to two and has a responsibility to find ways of managing this. However it's OK for him to find fatherhood tough and stressful.