Narcissism,Gaslighting,Red flags said so loosely these days.

[Journey1234]

We often hear about men and woman posting problems about arguments with their partners DH and DWs. People talk about being in abusive,toxic narcissist relationships and we of course only hear one side of the story. Is it just me or does everyone tend to jump
on their high horse and say LEAVE it’s narcissistic it’s abuse etc etc? It’s almost like unless it’s like the (darling buds of may) then it’s toxic,abusive,narcissistic gaslighting, red flag and we should leave at the first sign of an argument? For eg do we leave because your partner got angry? He or she swore in the heat of the moment? He or she didn’t agree with what you said. We all have our quirks moods and boundaries but if we all left after these disputes then we would all be single! no relationship is perfect and I 100% get woman and men should not accept physical, emotional abuse along with control etc but I’m talking about people using the word narcissist and red flags so loosely.

I agree the term is thrown about quite often. I think sometimes our partners are just arseholes, everyone has the capacity to behave in a dickish manner and sometimes it’s that the relationship has grown stale and is full of bickering - and that’s not fun for either party.

There are narcissistic individuals, sometimes some of us are unfortunate to know them - it’s difficult unless they’ve been formally diagnosed by a psychiatrist (I’ve only know one person which such a diagnosis and he was truly horrific in between the charming nice guy act). Quite terrifying when it occurred.

It’s like when someone says their H or W is narcissistic (sorry I keep repeating the word) because they’ve had an affair. That’s not strictly true - it just means that they’re philandering, that they want sec with another party, that they selfishly want more excitement. Lack of morals doesn’t always = Narc.

I think most of us have some sort of narc traits at some point in our lives, just not all of the traits all of the time. It doesn’t mean that we are all narcissists,

Just my take on it, and I hope it makes sense.

It doesn't matter.

Perception is everything.

I think some people would say LTB over pretty much any minor disagreement. And others go through hell without recognising the abuse and they really do need to hear the terms you mention. Thankfully that’s not me but I really do feel for some of the OP’s on here.
No one leaves over a minor incident alone, but that can often be the final straw after long periods of disagreement or unhappiness.
I left over incredibly hurtful behaviour from my ex. If it was an isolated incident and he’d apologised and made an effort to change I wouldn’t have left. But he never did or would. I wasn’t important to him. And after a lot of other examples of putting in no effort, ghosting, refusing to commit and stringing me along with no interest in my feelings, I had to leave for my own sanity.
You’re right that his version will be different. Because apparently remaining single in almost every way and always putting your needs first is ok when you’re supposed to be in a relationship for that long. He wasn’t actually a Narcissist, just terrified of trust and commitment. Like a lot of men who are damaged by previous relationships.
The happier couples are also not often posting on here as they’re living a good life, so there’s little balance.

Well, words have a tendency to circulate, don't they? Specially if they are useful.

Actually, I feel the opposite. I'm quite tired of all the minimising of really poor behaviours. On a site like MN, by the time someone posts, almost always, its the tip of the iceberg and it's been going on for ages.

Obviously, to say someone is a narcissist is a bit much from one reported interaction, but I think many people are leaning to recognise narcissistic and other abusive behaviours and this is intrinsically a good thing.

Many of these behaviours have been around forever, but weren't recognised and people (mostly women) were expected to just put up with them. In particular shitty, poor behaviour by men in the early stages of dating - I'm THRILLED that women come on sites like this and say, "Is this okay" and are told, resoundingly, "NO".

The misuse of gaslighting particularly annoys me for some reason. People seem to use gaslighting just to mean any form of lying rather than reserving it for the very specific type of lying designed to make your partner appear to be losing their sanity

I think people minimise poor behaviours in partners quite often. If they'd been more aware of red flags and narcissism, they maybe wouldn't have moved in with or had dc with these people. It leads to a miserable existence sometimes. Information is everything.

I agree the words are overused, but the sentiment not so much.

You may be lucky OP not to have had a shitty or abusive relationship, but having extricated myself from one, there is no way I will accept being treated badly ever by someone.

Are you actually saying that it is OK to shout at people in a relationship? It isn’t, and anyone who gets dumped for it has no cause for complaint.

I think it’s OK to have high standards of behaviour, and to choose to not spend time with those who do not have the mental or emotional wherewithal to be good partners.

Quite often someone will come on here to talk about a specific argument, or they are really upset by what their partner has done, and they aren't sure whether they are being too sensitive, or making a fuss about nothing, or it's just 'banter' or whatever. And of course they really love their DP, he's a great dad etc etc.

On further investigation, it often turns out that this one incident is the tip of a HUGE iceberg and the OP doesn't realise how bad it is. They have been conditioned into accepting it as normal.

Words are definitely overused, I have studied the subject of narcissism quite intensely and can 100% say I know at least 3 of these vile letches but they have every single trait of being a narc not just the odd bit of manipulating etc. I think for the most part if someone is posting on here it would be after many months or years of issues and that the final nail in the coffin is the one they post on here so sometimes telling them to leave is exactly what they should do in them cases.

As long as it raises awareness who cares. I'd rather they were overused than underused. And if people disagree with your observations on here they usually tell you so it's not as if people are going to get 'gaslighting' wrong and not being corrected.

As for 'red flags', they can be personal. Some people have different red flags to others. And that's fine. If something makes you uncomfortable or uneasy in a relationship then it's a red flag even if it wouldn't bother anyone else.

We live in increasingly thin-skinned, hyperbolic times where expectations of perfect, effortless relationships are endemic. They don't exist and they never did, but Insta-culture is leading people to think that they can have everything they want, all the time, and anything short of that merits a righteous lable.

The expression that I think gets thrown around too much is “grey rock”. Grey rocking is a technique for dealing with abuse, but for some Menes it seems to be a whole personality style.

Experts calculate that 1 in 6 people are narcissists. Statistically, if you know 6 people 1 will be a narcissist. So it’s a lot.

all of us exhibit narcissistic traits at one time or another. It’s part of a spectrum of normal behaviour so the odd incident doesn’t make you a narc.

I agree with @Crazymayfly that if often gets used when selfish, misogynistic or nasty would be better descriptions. I also know a narcissist who accuses everyone of being narcs!

but I think it also seems more common because we have a name for it now.

Oh interesting. The highest stat I've ever seen an expert give was 1 in 7. Which sounds about right to me tbh. Higher in some circles than others probably.

No, I don't think that' sright. It's somerthing like between 1%-6%.

Nonetheless, even if it's only 1%. Or even 0.1%, that's actually a great many people in the bigger scheme of things so it's not weirdf at all that many people have some interaction with them at some point.

Actually, that is still generous. Really, I think they thik it's about 0.5% or 1/200 people. Still a lot of people cumulatively.

My sister said our parents were narcissists, that I am also a narcissist, that her ex husband was a narcissist, that her current love interest is a narcissist.

The odds of all of her immediate family and romantic interests being narcs are extremely low.

The term is bandied about by people like my sister who call everyone who disagree with them a narcissist.

Im so sick of overuse of the term. True NPD is rare.

I agree that gaslighting is misused. To some it means someone has disagreed with them!

It’s funny, statistically the one in 6 or 7 narcissists must all be mils if MN is to be believed…. I have known many unpleasant people in my life, but only one true narcissist. Mil was a pita and very selfish, but not a narcissist. They are in a whole different category.

Agree. A good example of this. I worked with a lovely young lady who always referred to her long term ex boyfriend as a narcissist. One day, I got talking to her about him and she opened up to me about all the many happy years they’d spent together before he turned cold and ended their relationship; she subsequently discovered that he’d met someone else.

A few years before this, I had also been dumped by my husband of over 20 years; we have 2 teenagers. We had also had many happy years together until he turned cold and left me (you guessed it, ultimately I found out about the other woman).

When this happened to me, I was desperate to understand the reasons and the mindset of someone who does this. I read everything I could get my hands on and I learned that this coldness is typical of someone who wants out of their relationship because they’ve met someone else. Mumsnet somewhere has an excellent guide to ‘The Script.’

After this conversation, my colleague realised that her ex wasn't actually a narcissist but his behaviour (once his head had been turned to someone else) appeared ‘narcissistic’ and selfish. It helped her understand that the happy times they had together were genuine and his seemingly narcissistic behaviour at the end of their relationship was just absolutely typical of a person who is involved in an affair and is justifying to themselves their need to leave their relationship.

Yes, the word narcissist is massively and inappropriately overused.

No - it’s definitely 1 in 6 ( though that’s an estimate). That is the figure that Dr. Ramani uses and she’s one of the most well known narcissist experts.

1% of the population is estimated to be a psychopath.

compare these figures with the estimate that 3% of population is gay. (Though I’d personally think it was much higher based on my social and work circles)

as you say, even 1% or 0.1% amounts to thousands of people.

Interestingly, I see the opposite all the time.

Someone talks about their ex (or current) P and they mention behaviour going back YEARS and YEARS and yet, they refuse to even consider that the person might be abusive or have narcissistic personality traits.

I agree - it sounds like in the case of you and your colleague, it was not narcissism. And it's good that you and her were able to see that and
look back positively on what had previously been good relationships.

That doesn't negate the reality of the pervasiveness of narcissistic and abusive behaviours.

Gaslighting refers to behaviour that makes a partner mistrust their own perceptions. Not specifically behaviour that makes them think they are ‘insane’. It’s perfectly possible to be sane and rational but simultaneously mistrust your own perceptions eg when a partner claims to be caring rather than controlling.