Can someone be both the victim of a narcissist, AND their flying monkey?

[NotLactoseFree]

I'm a bit confused. exBIL is prretty clearly a covert narcissist (obviously with the rider that's our diagnosis, not clinical etc - but he has many of the traits). SIL was, obviously his victim for a very long time.

Theoretically, she is still his victim - he's manipulating her and using a lot of the usual tactics of guilt and all the rest to get her to agree to do things that are ridicujlous.

BUT.... she also seems to be his flying monkey in that she's now in big fights with his family who have all refused to have anything to do with him because of his behaviour - she thinks its outrageous and is alternatively either arguing with them or telling them they need to offer him practical/financial/emotional support.

She also appears to have stopped seeing his behaviours as problematic but instead has moved to seeing them all as being entirely out of his control due to mental health issues and trauma.

It's very confusing. We're keeping far far away from it all. But I do worry about the long term impact because one of the things that was a big concern whent hey were still together was that he tried very hard to drive a wedge between her and her family and also, simulataneously, to get her family to support him. And now that he's managed to wriggle back into her life (not as a partner), this new thing where HE is the victm and she's 100% convinced it's purely these other issues means she's withdrawing because she knows that we don't approve of him and that was bad before, but now that she seems to be thinking that he needs support, this is worse.

There's loads more but I wont go into it. But I suspect there's goign to be a showdown between her and DH at some point (not becuase he wants to but becuase as is always the case when ex is in her life, she will do/say/ask things that are completely inappropriate on HIS behalf, and eventually DH will have to say "NO").

Maybe it makes your Sil feel better to believe he's a victim of his poor MH, that way it wasn't that he didn't love her when he was abusive. Narcs seem to be very good at sucking people back in and sadly she's reframed his bad behaviour as an illness, so she's let guilt get the better of her.

Who holds the power.

Who is the unhappiest.

Narcisists do not feel emotions.
Sometimes people's conclusions can be wrong.

Who is the victim, who is the perpitraitor.

Confusion reigns.

This makes no sense except it sounds like the kind of bollocks exBIL spouts when he's trying to make the rest of us believe that SIL is the abusive/toxic/narcissistic one.

When it comes to games narcissists play the only thing to do is drop the ball and don't engage.

Your SIL may well be a victim but there is nothing you can do unless she sees that for herself.

There does not need to be a massive bunfight or showdown either- DH can just say no and grey rock. Don't engage.

Showdown was a strong word! .

We are 100% not engaging. But the friction point WILL come, and probably soon. There are two specific scenarios, and it's whichever one comes first:

Scenario 1: She asks us to do something to help him directly, or to help her to help him and we will say no.

Scenario 2: She will attempt to get us to see/spend time with him and we will say no.

Good to have a plan and to be clear on it.

I have to say - Ii am no expert! Just was the victim of a 'friend' narcissist and our neighbour. Plus an aunt who I went NC 20 years ago but my mother is her flying monkey and just does not see it. I have learned so much from the good women of MN.

I am so sorry though. It's a terrible strain and you spend alot of time trying to think ahead about strategy. You are expecting 2 possible friction points - also expect the unexpected.

@GetOffTheCounter I am so sorry though. It's a terrible strain and you spend alot of time trying to think ahead about strategy.

Yeah, this.

I agree with you that MN can be so helpful. I was feeling so confused and unsettled the last couple of weeks until I read something on here this morning that made me have an "aha" moment, and led to this thread - the realisation that a victim can also be a flying money. I can already feel my stress going down now I understand that a bit better. And as you say, the unexpected can be the worse part, so when you don't understand what's going on, that's really tricky. But once you understand it better, it becomes less likely you'll be surprised. If that makes sense.

Why is she asking for you to help him.

Why is she arguing with her inlaws to take care of him.

Is she standing firm with their separation.

Why is she asking for you to help him.
Because he has trampled over all of her boundaries and she doesn't even realise how inappropriate it is any more? And because she thinks that he is a victim?

Why is she arguing with her inlaws to take care of him.
Because she has become his flying monkey. That was really confusing me too - I get why she feels sucked in, but didn't get this one at first.

Is she standing firm with their separation.
Romantically, yes. But she is getting entangled again.

To be honest, the detaisl aren't relevant really. It just makes it better for me to understand that she CAN be a flying monkey/enabler AND a victim, all at the same time.

So he's not trying to manipulate anyone around him, just her.

What does he want from you.

What does he want his family to do.

Does he want to get back with her and for others to keep out of it and you believe that makes it easier for him to manipulate her.

What does he want from me? I don't know, or care really. I mean, if I could be bothered i could probably articulate what we've seen 5000 times, but I can't be bothered.

I care that she becomes this crzy person who acts in strange and inappropraite ways, tramples on our boundaries and puts pressure on us when he's around because he has convinced her that she is responsible for him. The thing with his family was more an example that made me realise the flying monkey thing.

Thinking about it more, are you asking if the flying monkey thing is part of attempted abuse by him of us? That's a bit more complicated. He has previously wanted us to help him to manipulate her and/or wanted to separate her from us (and yes, I get that these two things are directly opposed to each other). I guess it's possible he's manipulating her by suggesting that we are being less helpful to her (and him) and we are unfair? I don't know. Don't really care either. He hates us, me especially, so we just leave him to that.

I think you can boil down people’s behaviours into these archetypes but it is simplistic and can’t possibly tell the whole story. Looked at in a different light you might see some other things going on. I

’m sure it helps some people to explain other people in terms of labels like this but I am quite wary of it. If you don’t find the framing fits then why don’t you try understanding their behaviours without these labels?

You need to keep your distance and stay out of it.

He hates you so why would she want you to see him, for him to believe you still like him.

You can only control your own behaviour and boundaries, politely tell her you don't wish to see him, support your SIL but put in place boundaries of what you will do for her.

People get dragged into toxic breakups, it's hard but I would remain neutral, you don't know what the ending will be, as a pp said expect the unexpected.

All good pints and all things we're doing. He hates you so why would she want you to see him, for him to believe you still like him. I won't bore you with the details on this but I believe it's all linked to his disordered thinking. I just let that sort of stuff roll past me because it's so irrational. If you try to engage with it, you get tied in knots and it's not healthy.

And whilel I understand @Pinkmoonshine 's points about labels, for me, understanding better helps me to maintain my boundaries and to feel more comfortable with what I think/feel. It doesn't change what I plan to do (or, in this case, the many many things I'm simply won't do! )

Thanks all. I also plugged in some of my questions to ChatGPT and it was helpful to help me frame my own frustration, which has allowed me to let go of a lot of it already.