Stick or miss? Is this a normal part of relationships?

[CyndiLauper]

Have been in a relationship for about 8 months with a man who is gentle, kind, supportive and very loving. However, he’s absolutely awful in any sort of argument! We’ve had three or four, and he switches into total DARVO mode, like he’s a different person. Like totally emotional and triggered. I’m very calm in a disagreement, but there’s no calming him. He eventually goes for space (or I leave if at his), then is genuinely sorry and apologises.

I know many will say LTB, yet he genuinely gives me so much the rest of the time and have felt deeply in love. He isn’t in denial about it, says is willing to do the work and is having therapy.

If everything is great 90 percent of the time, and he is willing to address it, is there hope? We both have small children and I can’t risk that happening in front of mine. He’s been lovely with mine. I trust him implicitly apart from in an argument which rarely happens. Is this just life? Is there always something?

This isn’t just life and that number of arguments in the first months is too many. Regarding boundaries, after the first argument when he behaved this way, I presume the only reason you didn’t end it was because he apologised profusely and promised it wouldn’t happen again. So when it did, more than once, and you put up with it, that’s the worrying thing. A row on that scale so soon should have put you right off him but you put up with it and now he knows he can do it with no consequences. It’s scary and disrespectful no matter how gentle he is when alls well. In fact the contrast between gentle him and darvo him is more troubling than if he was more of an average mix. Clearly he can control this behaviour around others but he knows he can do it with you. Honestly I’d actually enforce those boundaries and say it’s over and he can do the work on himself and not inflict this on women until he’s better, if he ever gets there.

This man had had previous relationships and has children. This is either a long term pattern of behaviour or something he has just started doing with you.

Eventually his neighbours will call the police in response to his outbursts and there will be a ss referral whether your children are present or not.

The thing is, he knows what he's doing is wrong, but he keeps on doing it anyway. Quite a few times in only 8 months.

He reckons apologising afterwards will be enough to make you keep putting up with it. And so far, he's been right about that.

I'd be interested to know what he does in his disagreements with other people - colleagues, friends, his boss. Is he like this with them, too (in which case I'd be surprised if he still has a job or friends)? Or is this behaviour reserved for his partner, whereas he can control it with other people?

It’s always the same. Saying how sweet and kind they are and then drop in how awful their true self actually is. He’s kind to you so that’s the side you remember him by.

It’s gaslighting.

OP, I’ve just had a similar experience. He was usually absolutely lovely, but we had serious meltdowns during our seven months together, and he attributed all the blame to me. At first I felt partly responsible, but as time went on I realised he was being triggered over incredibly trivial things. He became critical, spiteful and manipulative. With the hindsight of two months apart from him, I realise this was unacceptable. Consider your own sense of self worth - you need to be yourself, not walk on eggshells around him.

Thanks all. I agree and would based on reading my post be waving the red flag. And it’s hard to get it all across here. I have been in a love bombing narc relationship before, and did a lot of therapy and went on to help other women in DV situations. My own therapist who is staunchly feminist and knows the ins and outs of our relationship is not seeing red flags here… she thinks it’s work we should do (he should do) - day to day it’s a calm mutually supportive relationship.

He HAS done it with friends and workmates in the past. It very much isn’t a patriarchal/misogyny thing. It’s like RSD.

But I’m not into analysing why he’s doing it! Not being the emotional
shockabsorber for it. Just feels tragic that there’s so much there apart from this.

I said I will not be witness to that behaviour again, it can’t happen. So if he can control
it/get help for it - great. If he can’t, I’m out. Yes too many chances already probably but I do believe in change. Not at mine nor my child’s expense though :(

That’s not gaslighting.

Just bear in mind, the beginning of a relationship is his best behaviour.

I'm saying run.

My own therapist who is staunchly feminist and knows the ins and outs of our relationship is not seeing red flags here… she thinks it’s work we should do (he should do)

You need a new therapist.

Yeah, 3 or 4 big arguments in the first 8 months does seem a lot!

It’s good that he acknowledges the issue and is willing to work on it, but I totally get your concern , especially with kids involved. I think the key thing is whether his efforts in therapy actually lead to change over time. If the arguments are rare and he’s actively working on it, there could be hope. But if nothing improves, you might have to think about whether you can live with this long-term. Wishing you the best!

Three or four times in eight months? That's too many arguments full stop, let alone arguments where he behaves this badly.

As you say no one is a machine and in a relationship you'll see someone at their worst as well as their best. That's not the red flag. The red flag is that it's not a one-off, it's a pattern of awful behaviour in a relatively short space of time.

A 90% good relationship doesn't involve big fights every two months. You've had more big fights in eight months than I've had with DP in 12 years. Hold out for a relationship where you don't keep fighting all the time.

OP I think your view of yourself as a strong woman who can't be abused is making you vulnerable here. You think of yourself as someone who would walk at the first sign of abuse - you haven't walked, so it must not be abuse.

But it is.

And your therapist should be pointing that out to you. She sounds awful, too.

I think you've had some good advice here. Keep him well away from your kids. If you're going to keep allowing him to treat you this way then at least make sure you're not giving him any access to your children.

We've all known men like this. They are sooooo lovely until the moment they hear the word 'no'.

Okay, usually I'd be in the "run like the wind, it's early days and it shouldn't be this hard at the beginning" camp. But I am willing to concede there might be value in giving him some time to work through the issues.

Having said that, you're a bit vague on exactly what happens. So he needs to "cool off". Are we talking a few hours or a few days? The latter screams "sulker" to me and I'm not sure how fixable that is. Similarly, when he apologises, does he truly apologise? or is it "I'm sorry I acted that way" and that's it vs accepting responsibility for whatever the disagreement was in the first place?

I agree with a PP - there's no reason you can't let him take the time to do the work and have the therapy. But be cautious because lots of men like this say they're doing the work and going to therapy when they're not, or they somehow find a way to excuse the behaviour as part of their therapy. It's weird.

I was in a relationship where this happened but I thought he was wonderful. He was very good at apologies.

But what I didn’t do was notice that his actions didn’t match his words. So I advise that you do this.

As an example, my ex would do something that upset me ie he was supposed to pick me up from work at lunchtime so we could do a house viewing together. He didn’t show up and when I finally got to speak to him at 4pm he said he’d ’forgot about me’. When I got a bit upset, I was at fault and I was making too much of a fuss about such a little thing and he got angry with me (DARVO in action).

The thing is he if he ever apologised (he didn’t in the above example), in spite of the apology, he never changed his behaviour. He continued to forget me, put me last in his priority, leave me in the lurch etc.

So its actions not words that will show you his true intention.

But it’s good that you are aware of red flags (I wasn’t).

He HAS done it with friends and workmates in the past. It very much isn’t a patriarchal/misogyny thing. It’s like RSD.

It doesn't matter. The effect on you will be the same. It is patriarchal in its effect even if not in his intention. It will be very difficult for him to work on. And impossible, in my experience, for you to ever quite trust him because whether he pulls this shit again will always be in his control, not yours. Trust me, it isn't worth it.

"I said I will not be witness to that behaviour again, it can’t happen. So if he can control it/get help for it - great. If he can’t, I’m out."

What will happen here is that he'll control himself until he's "got" you: when you're so in love, so committed, so invested, your lives are so entangled, your kids love him - that's when it'll be safe for him to let the DARVO and worse come out. And you'll be in so deep in that even though you'll tell him again what've you've told him just now, he'll know you don't mean it, because now you're weighing up all that additional investment and time.

That's exactly how women get stuck in abusive relationships and worn down until there's nothing left of them, OP. The only difference between women who end up like that and women who don't is that the latter end the relationship early.

Yourt boundaries are very weak, and I cannot understand your therapist encouraging this relationship.

If you really want to safely give this guy a chance at a relationship with you, end it with him now and tell him that when he's done a year of therapy on why he behaves like this, and understands it (you'll know when he does get it as opposed to parroting what he thinks he should say), then he should look you up.

He HAS done it with friends and workmates in the past

So it’s a long standing pattern.
Did you independently verify this with those friends or have you just believed what he’s told you? Because men are not very forgiving of other men blowing up at them and workplaces don’t tolerate that crap.

I agree with a pp that your belief you can’t be abused is making you vulnerable because he factually has abused you several times. Your therapists advice is absolutely awful. No therapist worth their salt would encourage you to work through this.

If he’s done this sort of thing with workmates and friends, it sounds ingrained in him. It will be very very difficult for him to change this behaviour after being this way for x number of years.