Do abusers ever realise what they do is wrong?

[tellmesomethingtrue]

I've just read through all my old notes describing incidents of verbal abuse and controlling behaviour from my STBEXH.
It goes back 5 years and I'm finally divorcing him. He has never read any of this and won't remember the incidents. He claims that I've always been moody and horrible to him. Will he always think he's done nothing wrong? He doesn't achknowledge that he's abused me. He claims that any bad behaviour from him to me was justified and therefore deserved. I wish I could make him listen to me read it all out so he can see just how awful it has been for me. Will he live the rest of his life just thinking I'm a bitch and will never understand how his behaviour has impacted me?

Op - please understand: he wanted to abuse you. He wanted to cause you pain. He wanted to control you.

If you step on an ant, do you care?
To him- you, were an ant. And always will be.

Do you explain to a crocodile that it's wrong to eat a buffalo?
No. Because actually it isn't. It's a crocodile doing what crocodile do to survive.

Abusers abuse because its how they get what they need: the satisfaction of hurting you. And, for you to do what they want.

He knows he hurt you. He intended to. Serial killers don't think they are wrong to kill. Because its not wrong for them. And they only care about what they want.
The only thing he thinks about you is that he wishes he could still make you suffer. That's all.

That's not a reflection on you. It's just because he's evil.
Stop concerning yourself with what a predator thinks about you. Live your life for yourself.

Sorry, I know its hard but you need to get over the illusion that he doesn't know what he did was 'wrong'. All knows is it was right for him. Normal human morals don't apply to people without empathy. He doesn't care about your pain so explaining it to him is pointless. Infact, he'll probably even enjoy it.

Abusers do it behind closed doors and very rarely act that way around others so they do know it is wrong, if they didn't they would be the same all of the time.

I think they do know, but much of the time it is a 'shadow knowledge', obscured beneath a thick sense of entitlement to have things however they want and layers of justification and faulty reasoning.

As the previous poster said though, they know well enough to only do it when other people aren't watching, and to manipulate you to make sure you don't tell others... like saying that you mustn't talk about your relationship with your friends or family because it's "disloyal" and they would "never treat you with that kind of disrespect". Or just outright threatening you with "or else" if you ever tell other people.

I wish I could make him listen to me read it all out so he can see how awful it has been for me.

That would be very inadvisable as you know. For whatever reason, he is not in a position to acknowledge how he’s been. If you even attempt to reveal who he is, he will see this as abuse and just double down on the abuse.

Most people doesn’t consciously set out to abuse others. They fall into that pattern to serve their own needs. His self awareness is perhaps so low he may not even realise what he is doing or that he was only like this behind closed doors.

Depending on his level of awareness, he will be justifying any actions. There is a stages of change model used for a lot of different situations. I think it also can apply to the abuser - unless the abuser is a sociopath / psychopath. Here’s a link based on domestic violence to explain the stages you’ve possibly been through with his abuse, even if it didn’t turn violent. https://www.thehotline.org/resources/the-stages-of-change-model-for-domestic-violence-helpers/#:~:text=The%20Stages%20of%20Change%20Model%20uses%20six%20stages%20to%20change,of%20action%20for%20the%20survivor.

Have you heard of the Johari Window? The more self awareness a person has, the more they will see themselves the way others see them. Is the overlap for him low? https://www.bitesizelearning.co.uk/resources/the-johari-window-explained#:~:text=The%20Johari%20Window%20was%20developed,what%20we%20know%20about%20ourselves.

"Will he live the rest of his life just thinking I'm a bitch and will never understand how his behaviour has impacted me?"

That's a difficult question to answer OP. Would it help you if he did understand?

Quite honestly I don't think you should concern yourself about what he thinks. I'd just push the divorce through as fast as you can and just get away from him.

I'm sorry you've experienced this x

I think because of an abusive upbringing, they act like emotional toddlers and expect us to act like 24/7 doting mothers. They expect us to always be there to smother them with love or absorb their abusive tantrums because they can’t manage their own emotions. As far as the abuser is concerned if we aren’t meeting these ridiculous demands then we are failing in our promise to love them and we cause them to lash out to get their needs met.
So long story short, the abuser will genuinely think you are the issue and he gave you a heap of chances.

They know exactly what they're doing is wrong. The difference between them and us is that they don't give a shit

The only time they are 'sorry' is when their actions negatively impact them. So they aren't sorry in the true sense, just sorry that their actions haven't given them the desired effect.

A bit like apologising for cheating, they aren't sorry the did it, they are sorry because you're leaving them which isn't what they want

He'll never think about the impact on you as he simply doesn't care. Don't keep giving yourself to him in this way. The best thing you can be towards an abuser is indifferent.

On a very pragmatic/unemotional level, some people are abusive because they intend to be and set out to be because they feel entitled to be so.

Some people are abusive because they are protecting themselves due to severe insecurity and a sense of inadequacy. But they mistakenly believe its their partners fault for upsetting them or triggering them without realising that they are responsible for their own feelings and no one else.

And some people end up in abusive relationships because they are just completely incompatible and what starts off as incompatibility becomes abuse when they try to mould their partner into who they think they should he rather rather who they are.

Sometimes people reflect on themselves and realise. Sometimes they don't and believe they were entirely reasonable and the other partner was at fault for always getting it wrong.

In your case, I'd say you need to find a way of being at peace with never making him realise. If he is going to realise, it will be because he comes to that conclusion himself and not because of anything you say.

They know exactly what they're doing they just don't care.

The only time they are 'sorry' is when their actions negatively impact them. So they aren't sorry in the true sense, just sorry that their actions haven't given them the desired effect.

My exh was enotionally abusive to me. After we split up, he had therapy to deal with my treatment of him and how I'd destroyed him.

The therapy actually made him realise that he was in the wrong. His apology went along the lines of - I'm not taking all the responsibility for phr marriage breaking down (which was fair enough) but I've realised I wasn't a very good husband to you. I thought that I was doing the right thing but I wasn't.

Obviously, it was more detailed and specific than that.

My dad definitely doesn't realise what he did to my mum was wrong or he's just deeply in denial.
Even nearly 20 years later he'll bring up mum "chucking him out" despite the fact he pushed her down the stairs & pulled some of her hair out

@GreyCarpet that is so interesting and seemingly rare…. Do you think he has genuinely realised or just trying to get you back? Has it made him a better person? Do you feel better for his realisation?

my ex is also in therapy to deal with me destroying his life and I wonder if at any point he will be able to see his role in destroying his own life.

I think that some abuse is very conscious but a lot of it isn't. As someone else said, it's a bit odd because sometimes abusers avoid doing certain things in front of others, which suggests they DO know, but actually, i think even then quite often it's more that they just think other people won't understand (how it was her fault etc). I think that because of how often when these men go onto the next relationship, they'll tell "their side" of the story to their new partners or to their families and its astonishing how often it is accepted. "His ex was crazy so of course he had to defend himself" etc.

I think it also depends on what's driving the abuse. So, for example, the one I have the most experience iwth displays a lot of covert narcissistic traits. He absolutely believes that his behaviours and actions are 100% justified. What's interesting is that he has slowly but surely alienated not just his ex partner, but his family and friends. He is now out of work too and can't hold down a job. And I've read this is actually quite common for narcissists, especially covert narcissists - their behaviour can be justified, or they can manipulate peopel to accept it for a long time, but eventually it becomes unsustainable. So, for example, he 100% believes that he has a right remain part of the "family" of his ex - that includes living in her house, attending her social events etc. He is outraged that her family do not include him in their celebrations. He has called and texted her friends to berate them for excluding him from parties and weddings. He tracked down a male friend of hers on social media and sent him a bunch of threatening messages. But he 100% can't undersatnd why "everyone is against" him and when people have tried to tell him his behaviour is not okay, he sends streams of abuse their way.... and then is completely gobsmacked when the next time they have an event, they don't invite him.

@Mummyoflittledragon post is very wise.

My Mother was abusive.
She verbally abused me in front of Ds on her deathbed.
(I'd gone to visit in the hope of some reconciliation at this point, but, NO)
A decent Counsellor told me that she would never face up to what she did as to do so would need such a profound understanding of who she was that her psyche wouldn't cope with it. ie she would die making it clear she was good and I was bad / valueless. She did exactly that.

Walk away. RUN away. Use your time and energy and headspace on yourself x

I can only speak about my personal experience, but for my ex it was a self esteem issue. He didn’t like himself very much and dealt with that by asserting control over others, and trying to be the big, important voice of authority as he thought that might equal respect.

He was incapable of self reflection because his self esteem was already too low. Looking inward and realising he had behaved poorly would have tipped him over the edge. Instead, convincing himself that I was the problem to justify his own actions was the less painful route for him.

I am at peace with it, because I know he will never reach this conclusion himself.

@medianewbie Totally agree with this.

My mother is extremely abusive and unfortunately now it is all directed at my poor 90 year old father but he won't/can't do anything. If push comes to shove he will back her up and deny the abuse that he has told us privately about.

She does not think what she does is abuse. She has absolutely no self awareness. She always thinks she is right. When I left for Uni she would open any mail sent home despite me telling not to. If I bring it up now she will say,' Well you wouldn't have told me what it was'. No because it was private to me but she really can't see she did anything wrong.

Whether abusers know what they're doing is abuse or they don't is irrelevant. The effects on their victim are the same and you need to get out.

Most don't have the awareness or the incentive to grow as human beings.

My mum, similar to others here, could not cope if she thought she was anything less than perfect and that I wasn't the problem. The more she tells herself that the more energy it takes to keep up the lie. She would find it even harder to be around me nowadays (we are NC) because I show glint of the uncomfortable truth now and again, and if she had to see this clearly, I think she would kill herself.

So I let it be and hope she lives the end of her life reasonably well. Don't forget that living with a disorder like NPD is pretty horrible, karma in itself. I think it's better as pp have said not to waste your energy. You'll only firm up the beliefs they already have.

With men in relationships, I also think it's better not to say anything once you realise it's actually over. As they navigate their way through other relationships, maybe, hopefully, they'll start to get an inkling that they could be, at least part of the problem.

I once read that when you die, you see everything clearly from a point of expanded consciousness..

My ex will never understand why his behavior was so wrong. He behaved the same way in front of others too then I got blamed for turning everyone against him. He never could understand that I wasn't saying things behind his back but that people didn't like him belittling me as a "joke". His is down to low self esteem. The final straw was accusing me of stressing him out because I had an issue with him very publicly joking about cheating on me and I wanted to talk about it to establish what actually happened. It was an absolutely classic example of DARVO

Just from what you describe he sounds like someone who is personality disordered. That means either narcissistic on the lower end up to sociopathic or next level is psychopath.

Assuming he's low level narcissistic you really can't win here. Have you ever watched Dr Ramani on YouTube? Don't tell them they're a narc is her top advice. That includes don't tell them about their abusive behaviour. She's on YouTube and gives such good advice ref handling these types.

I'd be looking at what you need here. Are there kids for example. And I'd play a game of minimum to no contacts for your own well being. Grey rock for example.

Before you can do this, you have got to understand and accept what he is. You are not dealing with a whole, feeling person. I know that's alot to get to grips with. The more you learn about these fuck ups, the safer you will be emotionally.

At the lowest end of problems he might cause, he will probably muddy your name by lying and blaming you. If you have mutual connections between careful what you share. Protect your online privacy and safety. Make sure no connected search engines or passwords.

Oh yes, this. exBIL regularly used to complain that SIL had turned everyone against him and that there were "two sides to every story". The irony was that SIL defended him, time and time again. The rest of us made up our own minds based on the behaviout we actually saw. In fact, often it was behaviour towards US, not even towards SIL.

The final straw for me came when I had to rush DS to A&E because he'd cut his head open - literally blood pouring out to the point where the school had almost called an ambulance. I knew he was looking after their DC that day so I rang him to ask if he could have DD. He said no but, reluctantly, agreed to be on standby in case things with DS were bad enough that he needed to be admitted. The prince.

To make things worse, he then managed to turn the whole thing around and claimed to SIL that he'd abandoned all his plans to be available for me, and he'd been really stressed and worried as I didn't contact him so he didn't know what was happening and I hadn't answered his calls (he rang me 3 times in 3 minutes, which happened to be whiel I was actually with the doctor having DS' head literally examined). The whole thing became a real issue because she called me quite irritated about how I had apparently acted as he was so upset and he'd been so worried all day and stuck at home......

And he thinks SHE turned me against him? hahahaha.

Yes, I think he was genuinely sorry. It.was completely unexpected.

He didn't want me back either. I think he'd just always prided himself on being a 'good person' and it made him reflect and realise that he wasn't where I was concerned for various reasons.

The children are adults now and he has remarried. We have little to no contact anymore but we co-parented extremely well until the youngest went to university.

So I'm glad about that.

Maybe I need to find forgiveness and move away from these memories