No leverage, no reason for improvement

[MilkMonitor]

Recently DH has been very snappy, irritable and hostile.

He says he loves me and the DCs. We are his raison d'etre.

But I find he will become ratty very quickly in a conversation. I have asked him not to. It doesn't make any difference. It happens at least ten times a week. I leave the room when it happens.

He seems to think that bringing peace offerings like expensive products makes up for it. I feel like a prostitute when he brings me these because his behaviour doesn't change but he brings me presents which signify he can say what he likes as long as he says sorry afters.

I don't know what else to do to change his behaviour. Maybe I should leave? I have no money though.

Pheebe, your words make it sound as though it is possible to justify calling someone all those names then because they were wound up by their provocative wives?

Milk, I am very interested in any advice given as was going to post something fairly similar.

DH hasn't been violent to me for years (he threw a bowl full of frosties at me, which actually went all over his face as he threw them and I laughed so he pushed me over and landed on top of me - I had a broken collar bone and 2 broken ribs at the time from a car accident.) but he has a thin veneer of civility covering a seething mass of resentment/anger.

Yesterday was horrid, we'd had a lovely day out with the DC at a country fair and as we were leaving it is a bit tricky getting the pushchair through the 'shop' bit due to tight corners.

DS wanted a drink so I walked ahead to buy it. I watched DH ask DD to move, she didn't do so quickly enough so he just ran the pushchair (big mobility off roader for SN children) with Ds in it over her foot and trod on it and then barged his way out of the shop through everyone, including an old lady.

DD said sorry to me for her attitude, to which I told her her 'attitude' was just fine and Daddy was behaving badly.

He is like this regularly, he works away a lot and struggles with the fact we don't all mourn his every departure and just get on with out lives.

We ended up having a huge row and he brought up every misdemeanor that I have done going back years - he does this everytime, he carries so much hatred around it is very unpleasant.

I eventually went out for a drive and left him to give the DC their tes (which I'd prepared) and bath. When I cam back he said, "can I make you a cup of tea as a peace offering" usually he brings me Tiffany's jewelry back form his trips to apologise - I've got loads of the fecking stuff, just reminds me what an arse he is.

I cannot live my life like this but don't know what to do to help him change, when he thinks I am the problem - or our DD in the case of today, "well she should have moved quicker".

He is 47, well educated (top public schools) and runs his own business, which he chose to open office in USA, Singapore and Aus - usually only telling me weeks before opening after months of organisation - so if he is stressed from travelling he can only blame himself.

Sorry for the lengthy hijack, but wanted to express my sypathy by standing shoulder to shoulder (as it were) with milk.

MS he sounds selfish, arrogant and abusive towards both you and your daughter. I hope she doesn't marry someone just like him.

Marmadukescarlet, your husband sounds like a nasty piece of work. I'm sorry if that offends you, but I was reading your message with my lip curled at him. It's a horror that a little girl has to grow up with that behaviour. Even if it is only occasional, thse behaviours are never forgotten and they contribute to your children's sense of self. What distorted impression is he giving them of their behaviour and their worth. Your post makes me really sad for you and the children.

SC and LW, yes it makes me very sad too. I told him last night that I didn't want my DC growing up with a parent that though hurting a child after 30seconds of stress was acceptable. So he returned with I don't want my DC growing up with a parent that shouts and smacks.

I have smacked DD twice in her life, she is 8.5 years old, I did a few weeks ago first time in over 4 years after hours of arguing, stroppiness and attitude - he got in from work just as it happened. He equates what he did with what I did. I know I was wrong to smack her bottom, she'd had ample warnings etc I should have just sent her to her room before it got to that point.

I have never smacked my 3.5 yr old (sn) My life is quite stressful with DS, spending many long days in hosp etc with very little support from DH - often because away or thinks I can cope.

He is becoming more and more like his bullying father, to whom his mother stayed married for religous reasons. At their 40th wedding anniversary she asked not to have a party as she didn't feel she'd had anything worth celebrating.

I would be horrified if my DS grew up to be like him or if my DD married someone similar.

I feel numb.

I don't know what word covers that story about your poor MIL. What a waste of her life.

It isn't acceptable to buy presents as an apology, you know, not really - nor to make you cups of tea. Words are not just words that can easily be forgotten.

Acording to dialogic theory, every word we use in speaking to another person is chosen by us to have an effect on the person who receives it. Yes, even in moments of anger, we CHOOSE what we say and we CHOOSE what effect we want our words to have (anyone who manages not to be verbally aggressive when angry knows this is true). So, firstly, we have in mind the effect that we want to have on the person we are speaking to, and then we ascribe our words a tone. The tone tells you what power dynamic is going on in the relationship between the speaker and the addressee. When people are using hurtful words with a haughty, sneering, or aggressive tone - they are telling you that they have the power to hurt you, the power to choose what words they like.

Sometimes, this can be done when we are so sick of somebody being a bastard to us that we want to hurt them back - just to remind them they don't have all the power. In your husband's case, however, it seems he believes that he can do this habitually because he really doesn't believe you can / will do much about it, such as leaving home. Tea and presents are entirely besides the point. He is treating you like a stupid child who can be distracted with a sweetie. He is not treating you as somebody who recognises his words towards you display a massive power / sense of entitlement imbalance which you want corrected.

IMHO, his words and tone need to change if you are ever to feel happy and valued.

Winky its never justifiable but wives CAN be provocative. I'm very clear in my posts that his actions were unacceptable. However, it is important to remember that being female does not make us angels or unable to abuse/provoke others.

I asked H, albeit with irritation, why he hadn't cleared up the breakfast table. If that's provocative, then I guess I'm in the wrong and deserve the abuse.

MarmadukeScarlet, I'm sorry to hear you have this sort of thing going on in your life too. It's really tricky having to watch what you say, how you say it all the time.

I'm starting to think that there are just some really bad tempered people out there. Of course, my H would never call me those names in front of anyone else because he knows he was bang out of order and that they would condemn him.

But because it was only me who said it was wrong, it doesn't matter. That's when you feel really helpless when nothing you say or do can make a change in their behaviour because they don't really care what you think because they think you'll take it whatever.

And I gave H back his latest batch of presents. He told me that if they weren't off his bedside table by the time he got home from work, then I could consider myself divorced. Whilst it is becoming an option for me, I would want it to happen when I am ready and planned for it, not when he says.

Sometimes too much is said by people and a line is crossed. I never believe H now when he says he loves me because of the names he hurls at me. It completely negates all the good times to my mind. How often can one say sorry and often does one accept apologies before it becomes meaningless?

Milk - I never said that, my posts were very clear, and I will repeat myself yet again. Nothing justifies the verbal abuse you've received I was simply trying to point out that it's important to examine what triggers these outbursts. Its taken his abuse and your aquiesence to get to the point you're at (you said as much yourself) and it will take changes from both of you to make things better

I'll stop posting now as what I hoped would be some constructive comments appear to be being taken completely the wrong way

pheebe I totally see where you are coming from and understand what you mean.

Calling you those names is totally unacceptable, milk, and yes that needs totally dealing with and changing.

But we're talking about a relationship here in which both people have feelings. I personally would have been damn annoyed with dh if he had got up from a lie in and in an irritated tone, asked me why I hadn't cleared up yet.

However, I would NOT have called him all the names under the sun like that.

So yes he needs to change the way he talks to you - big time. But it also sounds as if there's room for both of you to benefit from relationship counselling. It's very very easy specially when you have young kids, to get into a negative spiral with eachother but if BOTH are willing to change it's surprisingly quick to take effect IMO

seriously listen. go to relate. it might solve things it might not - but what it does do is force the accepted 'norm' of your relationship in your house to be talked about with a third person there.

imagine taking about today with another person in the room. any normal person would feel embarrassed.

a third person can say things like " when she [you] asks for things in a way which upsets you, do you think it is ok for you do shout and abuse her like that or do you think that perhaps there is another way that we could solve the situation?"

he knows its not acceptable

anger management and relate can go hand in hand

dh went to anger management and we both went to relate about 15 months ago.

it allowed me to draw a line and say that certain behaviours were not acceptable and that actually i wouldnt put up with them.

there is a difference between becomming angry becuase somethng upsets you - like " fucking shit shit shit" when you stub your toe or " what the shit is that doing there " having fallen over a roller blade in the living room.

and scaring your wife.

i got to a point where i was so frightened of dh's reaction to certain things ( not permanantly frightened you understand) that i developed a stutter or sorts.

it needs to be tackled

my dh found a private anger management person - as waiting to be refered was not an option for me.

hope this helps.

My ex used to call me horrible names too. And I'm probably giving away my former screen name, but I had to leave him. I also had no money. We weren't married (thank god though) so I couldn't even divorce the arsehole. I lived in complete misery for far too long. Well, no, I thought I could get through it because I had good friends and I liked the house (his house) and the area.

I have not got a poss to piss in now, but I'm so much happier than I was. The children are happier too. They have back the spring in their steps iykwim. I don't snap at them. I'm not resentful. I don't go to sleep every night asking myself why do I put up with this? no, really, WHY do I put up with this? Why do I why do I why DO I????????

Divorce the fekker. You'll never regret it. He isn't even SORRY for the way he has spoken to you. He is trying to shift all the blame on to you. You picked a wrong 'un. I did it myself. It ruined about 5 yrs of my life (I was with him for 8) Don't let it ruin a minute longer.

PS just to point out that my ex did 'progress' to violent aggression. He sad on my head pulling my hair screaming "I won't leave a mark on you b1tch".

It must be time for another name change now I guess. (somebody creeped me out recently by letting me know they knew who I was, but not saying who they were)

Marmaduke, your husband sounds like my ex. He also had precisely as you describe a veneer of civility masking (only just) his anger and resentment. I couldn't understand why he found life so hard. But he did, and it was all my fault.

What you say about your husband running the buggy over your dd's foot rings such a horribly familiar bell for me. I remember once my ex swung my daughter out of his way, because she was HAPPY and bouncing around the room while he watched formula one. He had bullied her and frightened her into a crying wreck. Because she had got in the way of the tv. She was not yet four at that point. He KICKED a car in a car park once, becuase it was badly parked. He also went to a public school, and so did his father. They have no idea how to behave. My ex's father is also a bitter angry man whose life is in ruins now. their bitterness props them up at this point. It's who they are, and me, the last BITCH to leave, well I've compounded their bitterness, hatred and misogyny. But at least my children wont grow up afraid to walk in front of the tv, tip toeing around their father and trying to guess if he'll be in a bad humour, or shouting at mummy. Or, wondering why there was always money for daddy's ski-trips and big tv screens, cars, motorbikes, and why mummy (and therefore they too) had to live on a shoe string......

Everynight I get into bed and just thank God he's hundreds of miles away.

MIlkmonitor, your dh sounds quite a bit like mine sadly. Although everything has been quiet here for the last month, I am always on eggshells, and having to think before I say or do anything. This is so sad, and there is no way on earth i want any of my dcs to ever be in a relation that is defunct like this, but I am too weak and tired and miserable right now to do more than make sure I have an escape plan, and to shield the dc's so they witness their father drunk/kicking off as little as possible. I do at least have the knowledge that if he is going to kick off it is in the evening once drunk.

I'm no way trying to say I'm perfect, are times when I say things that I shouldn't, but never to the degree he does, and usually after being called all sorts.

I know exactly what you mean about the line being crossed.

Do cat me if you need to talk, goodness knows we all need support from somewhere.

Milk - I just had to echo what everyone else has already said. His behaviour is totally unacceptable and I would find it impossible to see a future with someone who thought so little of me.

Your post has really made me question my own situation. My partner has changed from being a happy-go-lucky, kind, tolerant guy to a moody, snappy, permanently depressed misery who I am finding it increasingly difficult to live with. We bicker constantly and don't communicate at all. When I try to discuss it with him he says he's doing his best and doesn't mean to upset me and promises to try harder - then the next day he'll be exactly the same.

I don't know how to get out of the cycle. He says he loves me and doesn't want me to leave, but I am beginning to think he doesn't need the same amount of love and respect I do from a relationship, and that if a 'relationship' means one partner is in floods of tears 3 times a week then that is better than no relationship at all.

Sometimes I think it would be easier if he showed aggression, or was unfaithful - anything - because then I'd feel like I had a genuine reason to leave. At the moment it feels like the relationship is dying a slow, tortuous death.

Do you have friends who could support you leaving him?

Good luck,

Claire.