Help to reform after being a cheat

[AttemptingReformAsANarc]

I would like some help if any people would be kind enough to give it.

I am aware Cheating is a VERY triggering topic on these boards. I don't post this to deliberately "annoy" posters but to change my brain and thinking (I know some people see cheaters in black and white terms and I understand why they do that)

The long and short is that I have cheated. I won't go into my own special snowflake story. It happened more than 5 years ago but I only came fully clean about 18 months ago. I'm not proud of it. But I have to live on, become a properly decent person. Posting this could be a small help in my learning to do so. I'm trying to completely change my attitude, 180 degrees.

One thing my partner pointed out to me multiple times that I have caused further pain by blaming the poor state of our relationship at the time on my cheating.

I realise now that's total rubbish. It was crap, but I knew it was for years before the cheating, and I really did nothing to improve it. Also many people have a similarly crap relationship DON'T CHEAT. My partner didn't and our relationship was crap for him too at the time.

I know that I have this obnoxious tendency to defend myself against criticism.

I need to get down from the high horse permanently and just see myself as ordinary and flawed and just acknowledge and let go of criticism. I think that takes practice to detach yourself from other's comments.

One thing I would like to ask which I appreciate sounds pretty stupid, is how do you go about your day mentally. Do you wake up and immediately think things like "I wonder how I can do something nice for my partner right now".

How often do you think of them and others around you and the wider society and how often do you centre in on yourself and go after what you want. How do you achieve balance through discipline of mind and awareness. Practical stuff. What does it look like?

This might sound a stupid question but I realised I don't know what actually really mentally healthy nice decent people say to themselves in their minds throughout their day.

Thanks for reading. I appreciate it takes time and kindness to post constructively. You all have your own lives and your own troubles and to help a stranger is generous. Thank you.

I read something many years ago that basically said that you know someone loves you because they do small thoughtful things that show they are thinking of you and know you. That stick with me and it's true, I wake up and if my husband is up before me he will have put out my coffee cup and filled the machine, or he'll make my favourite dinner when he knows I've been busy and stressed, he paid attention to the fact that I'd been hanging my new dresses on special hangers and made sure to do that when he was sorting out the washing.

It's not about big demonstrations it's about paying attention to the small things and showing consideration.

Can I ask why you’re staying in a relationship you’ve felt is crap for so many years? You don’t have to.

I suppose in my last relationship I would do things I knew would make his day better or make him smile or feel cared about. Little things like just taking him a coffee while he was working, picking up something he likes at the shop, making his breakfast, telling him I loved him etc. Just Little thoughtful things because I was always considering him.

Ok I’ve had quite a long think about this one and I’m still not sure that what I have to say will be helpful, but let’s see!

For context, I’m mid-fifties, two adult children who are married, I live with DH. We’ve been married 32 years, together almost 36. I’ve never cheated or been cheated on, so again, not sure if I can be helpful here. I want to be though because you clearly want a new start and I do believe that they are possible.

I’ve learned over the years that a truly happy marriage comes from both partners thinking and acting on the thought ‘What does it look like to really love my DH/DW in this situation?’ And that permeates my day really. My DH and I both work so don’t really see much of each other in the day but I think about him during the day, so that might mean when I’m at the supermarket I see a treat he likes and get it, or just remember he’s run out of something and buy it. We’re not big ones for messaging whilst we’re at work but we let each other know what time we’re due home etc and always reply that we’re looking forward to seeing each other again. Most mornings he gets up before me and goes elsewhere so he doesn’t disturb me but when he hears that I’m up he’ll come and find me for a good morning kiss. When he gets home I’ll go and greet him with a hug and a kiss and tell him that I’m glad he’s home. If we have a disagreement we try to do it calmly and respectfully, trying to see the other person’s point of view. I always try to be thinking ‘Is this a loving way to behave and speak?’. Being loving doesn’t mean not calling out wrong behaviour, in fact it’s the opposite, it’s more loving to point those things out to people who deep down want to live decently. It also doesn’t mean that we’re not sometimes selfish and get it wrong, but it’s an agreed mindset and we try to abide by it.

In terms of ‘centre on yourself and going after what you want’, I’m not sure I think about it like that. I have needs that I’d like met somehow. Most of those needs are met by myself - if I’m hungry I’ll eat and I choose what I want. If I want to go out with a friend, I’ll discuss with DH if there’s a particular night that works best and do it. I changed jobs a couple of years ago because I was dealing with an overwhelming workload and DH and I discussed it over several months..to start with he encouraged me to try a few things that might help but when that didn’t really help he supported me to leave and find something else. We agreed timescales together, including a period of time when I wouldn’t be working so I recovered a bit. He knew I needed that and helped to facilitate it. I didn’t have to ‘go after’ leaving my job and finding another, it was something we decided together, both wanting what was best for our marriage and each other’s wellbeing. Me
giving up work has some impact on DH so it’s something we decide together, being mindful of the other person.

Other needs I need to be met by DH. He compliments me on how I look, tells me he loves me, makes me feel loved and secure. He also needs compliments but in a different way (he probably wouldn’t think that he ‘needs’ them but I’ve noticed it makes him happy when I do so I try to). We try to make sure each other’s needs are met with sex - not demanding x,y,z but communicating clearly what we like, knowing the other person really wants to know so they can meet that need. We’ve arrived where we are through trial, error, mistakes and hurt but always with the underlying mindset that what we were striving for was the best for the other person.

I’m going to sound ancient now (!) but I’m not actually sure that the modern mindset of ‘focus on what you want, get what you feel you need, look after number one’ has actually made us more happy as a society. I think there’s a lot of joy to be found in focussing on the happiness of others and we’re missing something if we don’t bear this in mind.

A caveat to what I’ve said above though….this only works when you’re both committed to it. If you’re in an abusive relationship or just with a selfish so and so, you will just find yourself sad and frustrated. It also doesn’t mean that you can’t ever talk about what you want and need. We actually do quite a lot of this, but it’s usually the other person who asks ‘How would you feel about…?’ ‘Would you like to…?’ ‘What would you like to do on Saturday?’ etc etc.

Reading this back it probably makes us sound completely nauseating! We’re really not, we just love each other and have found that being a team and wanting the best for each other really does bring contentment. Only you know whether this is a possibility in your own relationship.

I cheated, but I also left, although he wanted to stay married to me. That would have been a disaster because the relationship, or certainly my experience of our relationship, did not give me what I needed emotionally.

So my question to myself has been instead, will I cheat again? And no, I won't because at the time I thought cheating was the only way to get what I needed without disturbing the life of my children. If my current or future relationship ever led me to even consider cheating with someone else, I'd end it immediately.

I don't understand why you are staying in a relationship you'll unhappy in? Sounds martyrish

Also, you cheated sure, that doesn't mean you're not nice and decent. I'm lovely, I just happened to have cheated.

If it happened 5 years ago, what made you come clean only 18 months ago? What was the relationship like between affair ending, and you telling him? Do you feel him having knowledge of it has improved your relationship since?

Is your relationship with your partner still crap?
Why did the affair end?
if it hadn't, would you still be with the other man?

I think @CountryGirlInTheCity has given an excellent response.

It also is not clear to me what you want from this relationship and why you are there? Are you afraid to leave? If he dropped dead/walked away would you be relieved?

Hi, and thanks for your kind message.

I totally agree with this and have changed my way of behaving towards my partner. I noticed he complained he was alone cutting the hedge, so I put on my boots and went out there to help him. I noticed he complained about the shoes being left out in a mess, so whenever I remember I tidy these up. I know he liked me to be home before him, so I makes sure as often as possible that my car is in the drive when he gets back home and that I am well rested to greet him nicely.

So, I have tried to take note of as much as possible of his specific complaints and changed. He has noticed and commented on the difference and seems pleased. However, I think I need to do more as we still have moments of tension where I think he feels unloved. I suspect the process just takes a very long time when a lot of hurt has built up.

I admitted to the affair just after it started as I am a very poor 'active' liar. However, I discovered I am a good 'passive' liar, as in I have the habit of not revealing things that would 'hurt'. So I didn't give the "full" details.

In the intervening 5 years I made adjustments to my behaviour and we started to get closer. It was very slow. As a part of the self improvement process I listened to many podcasts, including one, several times, which was very categorical that with any information that you felt would hurt your partner you had to tell them that you had information that would hurt, and to give them the choice to know or not know.

So, the full coming clean with all relevant details only occurred some years later. The details were significant to him and I had known so at the time.

I feel the full coming clean has definitely enabled the relationship to improve. That day and night were beyond terrible. I was on the verge of checking him and myself into a psychiatric ward. But surprisingly, we have done a lot better since then.

Just treat people with consideration and respect, there's no magic formula.

I want us to reach a stage of mutual understanding, mutual compassion, mutual love that forgives the past hurts we have done to each other. I want him to heal and I want to heal and I ideally want this process to occur together. It's a tall order but it's what I want.

I am not afraid to leave anymore, but I was. As the relationship has improved I have grown in confidence that I could be OK without him, but it's not my goal.

If he dropped dead I would be devastated. Equally if he walked away. But I would understand why he walked away because of the past lying.

I am trying to understand the thinking patterns of healthier people in very healthy relationships to see where I might still be going wrong as I still notice tensions cropping up.

But do you ever talk about the tensions? It seems to be you utterly prostrating yourself.

From what you describe it makes me wonder if tensions get swept under the carpet? Tensions really are just unspoken things hanging in the air. And he doesn’t have to talk, when you capitulate.

Do you ever get to say “Actually when you do X, I feel hurt/disrespected/whatever”. It doesn’t seem so from what you describe, but I want to check.

… or to put it differently Are they really tensions, or actually new hoops for you to jump through?

Is there a reason why relationships counselling isn't on the cards? Also, would you consider counselling for yourself?
The reason people will suggest counselling is because without it, your risk repeating previous unhelpful behaviours. If you google 'the Karpman drama triangle' - Victim, Persecutor, Rescuer' that might make more sense.

I am trying to understand the thinking patterns of healthier people in very healthy relationships to see where I might still be going wrong as I still notice tensions cropping up.

I outlined in my earlier post above the sort of foundation and thinking that exists in my marriage, but that doesn’t mean there are never tensions! I’m really sorry if I’ve given the impression that it’s somehow perfect because it isn’t. I do think it’s pretty healthy though, and part of that is having a way of dealing with conflict and disagreement in a non-destructive way. That’s something we’ve had to learn how to do…and we’re still learning how to be better to each other as each year goes by.

You haven’t said much about how your partner views the relationship and how he feels it’s going. Have you had conversations about what was wrong in the relationship before your affair? I agree with you that a poor relationship is no excuse for an affair and that you should have made a different choice but it is part of the context. And if there are fundamental things that need addressing from that time, that might still need to be done. Not in a ‘here are all the reasons I had an affair and it’s hardly surprising I did’ way but it’s often the case that both parties are contributing to make a bad situation, even if it’s unintentional. I can see that you really want to make the necessary changes so that you have healthier relationships, but as I said before it only works when you’re both on the same page. Is your partner striving for the same or do you both feel that you are the only one who needs to make changes? You need to be very sorry for the affair, and all the bad choices and hurtful behaviour that comes with that and it sounds like you are. What is he working on?

Thank you.

He is working on improving things alongside me. He makes a lot of time to listen compared to before and he is more affectionate and involved in the house.

This article made a lot of sense to me.
I think we need to improve our communication and figure out where needs have not bee fully stated. I think I still assume stuff.

As for tensions, I don't expect a relationship to be without tensions but ours can spoil a perfectly nice day out. I fall off and emotional cliff and become extremely sad at an offhand comment. It makes bring inbthe relationship impossible, temporarily. I know I need to soothe myself and withdraw yo do so but all he sees is a sad person and it triggers him into anger and frustration which pushes me into further sadness.

We are going to see a counsellor.

Thank-you everyone.

I do now. I talk about the exact moment and what behaviour it triggered in me, how I felt. Usually I feel very sad and alone and usually it's a criticism or impatient remark that triggers it. Quite often these happen in the context of a moment of tiredness for him or me where I've been stuck on a track/in my own bubble enjoying something and ignored the subtle signs he has getting fed up.

But that’s you prostrating yourself again:

1. You tell him you feel hurt because he snapped at you
2. He replies that you were ignoring him
3. You apologize for not being fully focused on him, in effect agreeing that being snapped at is an acceptable way for him to communicate that you need ti stop your enjoyment, and make him happy.

I know that’s twisting it a bit/ but not that much really. Doesn’t he equally have a responsibility to join you in the bubble- or to communicate his frustration in a way that isn’t sharp or criticizing?

BTW- you aren’t a narc. So don’t accept that very convenient label.

I disagree with this a little, I think you have some red flags for vulnerable narcissism here. The biggest thing that jumps out is not knowing what a healthy, functional relationship looks or should feel like and issues with low self esteem (which is at the heart of NPD). It's this whole sense of not seeming to have any measure of what is normal, or how the mind of a 'normal' person works. Having no strong sense of self or how to be. Not understanding the thinking patterns in healthy people.

People with NPD are often like chameleons, changing to be what they think someone wants and it seems like you're now tying yourself up in knots to be what you think he wants. There's no authenticity in it though because you're not being you, you've looked up the definition of 'a good person' and you're trying to be that.

The next thing I'd mention is not taking responsibility for your cheating ie blaming it on your difficult relationship and not being able to cope with criticism or being to blame for anything. This is typical and stems from low self esteem.

You say 'I need to get down from the high horse permanently and just see myself as ordinary' did you see yourself as better than other people? Better than your partner? That people just didn't seem to realise how great you were and you couldn't understand why? That would be typical with NPD.

You also say you're a very good passive liar, did you think it was ok if he didn't know and you didn't say? You also say 'I am not afraid to leave anymore, but I was.' That fear of leaving/being alone is again low self esteem and also typical of narcissism. You treat the other person badly but then when they want to leave you beg them to stay and are terrified of them leaving.

People with NPD tend to have low empathy and low remorse. They might regret an affair for example but they wouldn't have much remorse for the hurt it caused their OH, they'd regret it because it made things more difficult at home for them, or because it ended the relationship and they wanted to keep. It can look like they're having a normal response (regretting the affair) but the reasons behind it are selfish. I notice here you never really mention feeling remorse for the hurt you caused your OH, it's more like a personal mission to be 'a good person'.

The poor sense of self or what's 'normal' really jumps out at me. I think people misunderstand vulnerable narcissism a lot, it stems from low self esteem and involves going into a survival mode. You might grow up as a child with a very controlling parent who tells you what to think so you never get chance to learn who you are because you are always trying to be what they want. You are so fragile you can't manage any criticism so are never to blame for anything. Everything you do is for yourself because you've learned that no one will look out for you apart from you. You live in a sort of fantasy world were you feel you deserve/are entitled to things and you have to 'take' those things because you can't assume they will be given freely. You are terrified of being left/abandoned and will do anything to avoid it. You might feel sad a lot of time like you are a victim even though things have gone wrong because of your actions.

Just a thought OP, might be way off the mark as there are just a few paragraphs to go on. You really need help with your low self esteem though and your lack of insight into what's 'normal'. Low self esteem and not having a sense of what is normal/acceptable means that you are also very vulnerable to being abused yourself.

Yes absolutely agree with you.

I actually think we have BOTH been acting with vulnerable narcissistic tendencies.

I think healthier people have different internal thoughts when they observe another person's negative reactions who is near to them. Their brain stays relatively calm. Like "Im ok but my partner is in a bad mood but that's on them, I'll check to see if they need help or space to recover "

Whereas unhealthy people might think "what did I do wrong? This relationship will never be happy. I am a failure. I will never be happy with this person " etc.

If your internal training default perception is the second one, you get into a lot of miserable situations with other people because they all have their own internal problems like tiredness, stress etc that you're not aware of, and are no reflection on you.

You have poor self-esteem / separateness from others and your feelings depend on "how they act around you".

If your internal training is the first type, you detach, see them as a separate being and continue as far as possible on a calm, constructive path in your own life, which enables you to comfort then or take distance, as would be best for you/them.

Those of you who have received this what I would call "positive internal training ", my question is: what mantras do you have when other people get upset around you, if any?

What did your caretakers regularly to you when you were upset as a child that allowed you to learn a different mental habit?, if anything?