How to say no to MIL

[nothankyouno]

Hi All. Have name changed for this, so grateful for any advice.

Long story short, I have a very difficult relationship with my MIL. The backstory is novelistic (is that a word?) but I have tried to include the relevant parts below.

DD2 is three months old and I am on maternity leave. MIL would like to come round twice a week whilst DH is at work (and DD1 at school) to see her. She did this with DD1 - letting herself in the house, waiting impatiently and staring whilst I breastfed her, criticising and questioning everything I did (ranting and crying because she hated the name we chose, shouting at me for using white noise when baby slept, being offended if I dressed DD in anything but hand me downs from her other grandchildren), belittling me ("why does she not sleep through the night at six weeks? MY children did" and "don't you like being much thinner?") and when DD was fed and changed would seize her and carry her off, doing loud performance parenting in her native language (which I do not speak) and expecting me to bring her drinks and food until baby needed feeding or changing again. These visits were dressed up as "help"... I suffered badly with post partum depression and the shock of being a new mum and I sort of complied, was polite and let them continue until I went back to work. It was truly awful.

DH has asked me if she is able to do the same for DD2. I have said no, absolutely not - he has to be here and really she should only come once a week. His working pattern means he is at home two weekdays and one day at the weekend. I think this is a pretty reasonable compromise. He will (reluctantly) tell her this but she will not want to accept this and will likely accost me to ask why when she next visits. What can I say that is short, to the point and that she cannot argue with?

"No. Because I don't want it."

If she pushed for a why I'd tell her what's you've just told us.

@Ladybyrd I will go for no is a complete sentence in the first instance I think ("No, that does not work for me, but you can come at 4 on a Wednesday if you like?") if pressed I will turn to DH and say "have you not discussed this with Mummy Dearest?" and if he does not say anything helpful will have to say something further.

You lot are making me feel brave! She's just an average woman but with the amount of screaming/fuss/nastiness I have witnessed her dole out to DH I'd rather face a real life dragon at times.

If she pushes then be honest. If it's OK for her to comment about your weight - then why is not OK for you to be just as blunt to her? If she and your H want to use the excuse of honesty and cultural norms, then direct it right back to her. If they get upset then you can point out the complete hypocrisy of their reaction.

I am prepared to do that @MidnightBlossom. I just want to do it in a way that means I have got my point across and do not apologise or get overly emotional - both of which are hard for me. I also want to be a decent human being - I don't care for MIL's feelings, and actually if she shouts at me fine. I do care for DH's feelings though, and if I am cornered and mumble I will be angry with myself, or alternatively if I lose my shit then I feel he will take his Mum's part, which I find very hard.

I had one of these, @nothankyouno but her son wouldn't even reluctantly stand up for me. He is an ex and has a dreadful relationship with his children (2 not mine) because she steamrollered him as much as their mothers. Leaving him was for a variety of reasons but seeing how she now treats his wife, the relief is palpable.

My tuppence worth is that it's too easy to get drawn into being the bigger person or the reasonable one. She is NOT reasonable, so you cannot reason with her and you will drive yourself batshit trying to.

Tell her you will look forward to two hour visits max when DH is there, or visit her so you are able to leave at will.

"Thats what works for us as a family, MummyDearest, this time, thank you". And just keep repeating it calmly. Treat her like your toddler. Calm, firm and no arguing. She's NOT your toddler tho, so if she tantrums, you can and should walk away.

Your DH is a wet lettuce when it comes to his mother. Like so many men with this type of dysfunctional and otherwise emotionally abusive mother he cannot and equally will not deal with her. His own inertia too when it comes to her hurts him as well as you people as his own family unit.

You've likely not come across someone as disordered as his mother is before now. She is using her apparent honesty and cultural mores (and I daresay that in their culture only disordered of thinking people like she bangs on about other people's weight) to be abusive towards you all.

Your H has been conditioned from childhood to believe that Bad Things Will Happen if he upsets his mother in any way so has learnt to allow her to walk all over him and his father. Not all relatives are nice and kind and some of them are actively abusive. She is and you all need to stay away from her going forward; I would not encourage a relationship. Look at how her son has turned out; he's afraid of her and still wants her approval even now as an adult. She has emotionally stymied him and he frankly needs therapy. You would not tolerate this behaviour from a friend and his mother is no different.

The "normal" rulebook of familial relations goes out the window completely when it comes to dysfunctional family relations like his mother. She's already done more than enough harm to your family unit; start kicking back and say no more to being abused. Do also read "Toxic Inlaws" by Susan Forward.

The rule for toxic people is to never

Justify your decisions
Argue with them
Defend yourself
Explain yourself

Honestly once you try a few times with them to do any of the above you understand why.

I find it easier to just put masses of emotional distance in with them and continue living your life. We have it on both sides of the family, police level involvement levels of toxicity with them, it is very difficult.

Where is your father in law here?. I ask only as he is not mentioned.

And change the locks too; an easier task than trying to get the key back off her.

At some point in her youth, Mum/MIL gave the boat a little nudge. And look how everyone jumped to steady the boat! So she does it again, and again. Soon her family is in the habit of swaying to counteract the crazy. She moves left, they move right, balance is restored (temporarily). Life goes on. People move on to boats of their own.

The boat-rocker can't survive in a boat by herself. She's never had to face the consequences of her rocking. She'll tip over. So she finds an enabler: someone so proud of his boat-steadying skills that he secretly (or not so secretly) lives for the rocking.

The boat-rocker escalates. The boat-steadier can't manage alone, but can't let the boat tip. After all, he's the best boat-steadier ever, and that can't be true if his boat capsizes, so therefore his boat can't capsize. How can they fix the situation?

Ballast!

And the next generation of boat-steadiers is born.

A born boat-steadier doesn't know what solid ground feels like. He's so used to the constant swaying that anything else feels wrong and he'll fall over. There's a good chance the boat-rocker never taught him to swim either. He'll jump at the slightest twitch like his life depends on it, because it did .
When you're in their boat, you're expected to help steady it. When you decline, the other boat-steadiers get resentful. Look at you, just sitting there while they do all the work! They don't see that you aren't the one making the boat rock. They might not even see the life rafts available for them to get out. All they know is that the boat can't be allowed to tip, and you're not helping.

Now you and your DH get a boat of your own. With him not there, the balance of the boat changes. The remaining boat-steadiers have to work even harder.
While a rocking boat is most concerning to those inside, it does cause ripples. The nearby boats start to worry. They're getting splashed! Somebody do
something!

So the flying monkeys are dispatched. Can't you and DH see how much better it is for everyone (else) if you just get back on the boat and keep it steady? It would make their lives so much easier.

You know what would be easier? If they all just chucked the bitch overboard.

You might find it helpful to write down your chosen phrases on post-it notes or pieces of paper that you can look at while sitting at your dressing table or drying your hair or whatever. That way they will embed in your mind.

If she starts getting difficult, remove yourself from the room. Just say "excuse me", take your baby and go sit quietly in the bedroom for a while. Do it every time.

It's also okay to say, "you're upsetting me now because you don't listen", and again leave the room.

Practice letting her words run off you like water off a duck's back. Leave your DH to deal with her every time.

If she turns up at the door when your DH is not home, don't answer it. If she is persistent, tell her now is not a good time and turn her away.

The more you say no the easier it will get. It just needs practice. As the saying goes - you can't change other people's behaviour, only the way you react to it.

Cultural differences go both ways.
"Oh in the UK it is considered very offensive to comment on people's weight, especially new mothers. I'm surprised you were unaware of that"

I agree with pp just keep repeating it doesn't work for you. Excuses can be argued with.

@AttilaTheMeerkat thank you for your very insightful and helpful posts. I agree with so much of what you have said. I have read Toxic In Laws and agree that DH is mired in fear, obligation and guilt. As such, he is not willing to throw her overboard (how I wish that were the case) but I am looking for suggestions as to how I can effectively lay down and enforce boundaries and create some distance now. I will read it again.

I have considered splitting up with DH as MIL had made me so very miserable, but I did not realise how bad things were until after DD1 arrived and if I were to do that there is no doubt he would fight for and get 50/50 custody of the girls ASAP, which would mean MIL could have unfettered access to my daughters during his contact time - I will not allow this. Also I do love the man and MIL aside we are happy. He says he is supportive of my standing up for myself and I can see that he does make some effort to push back when he speaks with MIL - obviously I feel it is not enough, but given the lunacy of the boat in which he has been raised I can see that he does try.

I think the cultural norms thing is a weak excuse too. From my small sample of people from that culture who I know - the rest of DH's immediate family and some family friends - the vast majority are kind, thoughtful, interested in me as a person, supportive - and not even particularly direct or blunt. I get on very well with and like DH's sisters - I do not feel like they act as flying monkeys who put any pressure on DH.

FIL is around, they have been married for 45 years. He is pleasant enough to me and kind to the DC, but keeps himself to himself.

Well, first of all, change the locks. Nobody should be letting themselves into your house without permission, FFS!

@AmandaHoldensLips DH has taken DD1 to football and DD2 is asleep, so going to have a bath and write some phrases down now. Thank you. I am trying to strike a balance between being prepared and giving MIL too much (any) headspace in what is otherwise a nice day.

1. It's the name we chose. You don't have to like it bit you do have to respect our choice.

1. If yiu raise your voice to me, I shall ask you to leave.

1. There is no need to cry over something that is not an issue.

1. If you want another drink/sandwich, hand me back the baby please so I can rest, you know your way round the kitchen and I would like one too.

1. We will dress the baby how we please.

1. I would prefer your visits to be kind, caring and non confrontational and I won't put up with anything else.

1. As we don't expect to be out when you come in, can I have the key back please, it's useful to have a spare

I'd just put it on rinse and repeat. She's done because she can. As MNet says, yiur house, your rules.

Tell your husband straight that she can only come round when he is there an you will be using the home go go out and have your hair done/shopping/exercise/whatever.

"FIL is around, they have been married for 45 years. He is pleasant enough to me and kind to the DC, but keeps himself to himself"

He is yet another man who has failed to protect his now adult son from the excesses of his wife's behaviour. He basically threw your now H under the bus to protect his own self from her. He had a choice when it came to his wife and he chose her. Women like his mother cannot do relationships at all and always need a willing enabler to help them, this being his dad.

Would your H be willing to read "Toxic parents"?. At the very least you both need to present a united front when it comes to his mother in particular. If he cannot do it you're going to have to have cast iron and consistently applied boundaries. Personally I would not let her into your home.

OP, may I suggest that on those occasions when she is comes and you are at home, you do not facilitate MIL having a great time, like offering her a drink or a snack, or fuss around her in any way? Let her ask for everything she needs, make her uncomfortable, the less great time she has, the less she stays.

Same with the door - always use the latch before she comes to force her to knock rather than enter. And when she does come, try “I am so glad you are here, I could really do with a break or I really need to do X”. Then use the time she is here to either do a bit of self-care or housework, whatever it is. She claims that she is coming to help, so she can’t push back on that.

The truth

Man, I tossed my MIL out of my house on her ass when she got started trying to ell me what to do. She even changed around my living room furniture!! I came home and saw it and all I said is "I'm going to shower and change and when I come back my living room better look just like it did this morning." I could hear hubs fussing at her as they dragged things around. LOL. When done I sat down and told her "look, I may be young but I'm fully grown. I am the woman of this house, not you. I make the rules about everything up in here... who comes, who stays, everything. Right now I am so pissed at your rudeness I want you to get your purse and coat and get out. Get out now before I go smooth off on both of you!" My temper and my use of profanity are legendary so they both scrambled and ran out of the apartment.

The thing I learned from my parents is this. Once you are grown you establish the boundaries around how people will or will not treat and talk to you. So the fact that this is happening to you means you failed to speak up and set boundaries with both her and your husband. You do NOT have to entertain his mother, let her in more than once a week or even once a month, feed her, nothing. You decide all of that. Think about it and work on making your spine stronger and shinier. As a Mom you have to be able to confront people and check them and stop them in their tracks to protect your babies.

Please use some of that Momma Bear instinct to protect yourself.

Change the locks on the door tell her straight thanks but no thanks, that's it and if she doesn't like it and starts having a whinge just say tough enough is enough throw any politeness right out the window your not married to the mil nor do you owe her anything s9 grab the bull by the horns and stand firm by your decision there your babies you nurtured them for 9 months not her and she will have to get used to the fact there your babies it's your house etc stand up for yourself goodluck