When is it NOT controlling?

[Doglover321]

So many men come out of relationships and complain that their ex is controlling. But when are they not controlling? Is there ever a justification for telling your partner that you don’t want them hanging out with someone? What if your partner cheated on you and you tell them you don’t want them hanging out with this person that they cheated on you with?? Surely you’re not “controlling” in this scenario.

For context, my ex-boyfriend is going around telling people I’m controlling because his mum sent me an abusive, unprovoked email and he wanted to go round there for a pally dinner the very same day and not address the situation, to which I told him this is not appropriate and I would appreciate him showing some loyalty.

Exes eh?

It is not controlling when someone tells their partner quite reasonably that what they are doing/not doing is unacceptable behaviour.

People don't like being pulled up on their shitty behaviour and are apt to call it controlling.

Never. If you are woman and you would say quite clearly what you want, or expects equal treatment; you will always be controlling.

A non-controlling woman is one that says "yes, love" and takes care not to hurt the other person's ego.

We use to be hysterical. Now we are controlling.

Very true - thanks both

It's a lazy descriptor.

Woman lays down a boundary instead of letting man do exactly as he wants without question = apparently controlling.

Woman then has to make a decision about what to do - because man has set his own boundary that 1) he'll do what he wants anyway or 2) backs down and whines 'controlling'.

Man tells woman what to wear/who she can hang out with/how to spend her time/uses her as a skivvy sex doll... Obviously controlling. Mostly because the dynamics are different because the consequences are different and potentially more severe. Sulking, silent treatment, financial abuse, all under even the faintest threat of 'if you push me, I can hurt you' is what changes the male/female dynamic.

No man can be 'controlled' by a woman IMO unless she had some serious leverage over him. He can just walk away. Or, you know, kill her.

The last man I dated painted me as jealous and controlling because I didnt put up with him disrespecting boundaries, i called him out when he acted like a twat and I said no sometimes.

These men’s view is controlling equals not being a doormat

Are people passing on what he is saying to you? That sounds like they are stirring.

I'd simply laugh if someone told me he was saying this. Say, 'Does he? Well, lucky for him I ended the relationship then, isn't it? '

Passing on as well as he himself has said it. He even made a Facebook status claiming I “stopped him from seeing his family” 🤔 which is not true in the slightest! All I said was ‘I’d rather you didn’t go round your mums for a friendly dinner tonight after her unprompted abusive email this moaning, we need to set a boundary so she knows she can’t do this’

I have tried to explain since breaking up that I think I was justified to ask this. However, he still maintains that it is controlling and that he should be allowed to see anyone at any point, regardless of how they have treated me.

Why are you still in contact with him? Stop caring about what he thinks.

He has also since gone on to befriend these two women who he knows bullied me something chronic (he went through it all with me)! Think verbal abuse, physical threats, stalking, etc. (Deffo mental health issues). Really hurt me when I found out!

For me it's not so much what is being asked but how.

Expressing opinions & preferences, engaging in calm discussions to share views, reaching compromises or agreeing to differ - not controlling.

Regularly mandating or demanding, guilt tripping, making ultimatums then threatening/retaliating/punishing/huffing etc when they don't get their way - controlling.

So, as a rule, asking a partner not to spend time with family or friends is, if not controlling, certainly not ideal. Having said that, it is entirely reasonable to have your own boundaries and to say that if someone has treated you badly but your Dh continues to maintain a strong relationship with that person, then you may not be able to maintain the relationship. So it's not very nice, but perfectly reasonable that he didn't wnat to address things with his family. It's also completely fine that as a result your relationship broke down.

Where it gets confusing, is that line between a boundary and control. A good example of controlling behaviour might be someone being punished for doing things that anyone else would consider completely reasonable. eg, Woman A agrees to have dinner out with 3 friends on Wednesday. Partner does not like her having dinner out because he thinks that she should be at home and he should not have to look after the children. He might accuse her of cheating or lying, or he might bombard her with calls and messages calling her names or telling her the DC aren't coping when she is out. He might refuse to talk to her for days after she returns from this evening out. All of which is designed to discourage her from ever doing this again.

I would argue that the same man, if he genuinely thought that going out with her friends was not appropriate and told her he would end the relationship if she did, is a man who is a complete wanker BUT also a man who has the right to make a decision on what he does and does not want from a relationship, express that clearly, and then follow through accordingly.

If he wanted you to go to his mum's, he's being controlling. If you didn't want him to go to his mum's alone, you're being controlling.

The minute you try and stop someone doing something or make them do something, you're attempting to control them and infringe on their autonomy. That's appropriate to do with children much of the time. Not with our adult partners the vast majority of the time.

My exH said he was in "a state of subjection" and subsequently left me, because I thought I should be allowed a veto on his plan to start spending every Wednesday night sleeping with another woman.

This just about sums them up, doesn’t it!!

Surely it's only ever really 'controlling' if the ultimate outcome is the other person is 'controlled'. Otherwise it's basically his opinion that you are a bit bossy/dare to have an opinion/won't allow him to live the single life while taking all the perks of a relationship.

Controlling, in reality, is so so different.

The funniest hypocrisy with my worst ex, was when he went out with his friends, I wasn't allowed to contact him. If I did, that was controlling.

However, if I went out, I had to be 'on call' and text him back instantly. Otherwise I'd be spammed/abused/blocked if I was just having fun and didn't look at my phone 'in time'. But apparently, he wasn't being controlling. An utter double standard that I think is common in misogynistic men.

They've taken a word that is a very serious aspect of abusive/coercive relationships, and they've minimised it down to a meaningless whine. So now we, as women, aren't taken seriously when we say it.

So for these people that seem so clear about the differences between controlling and setting boundaries for yourself, I am genuinely interested on how many times is ok to explain your boundaries or explain your feelings in relation to a behaviour.

For example, Mother experience some disrespectful behaviour from her son's friend. She explains to son, that she found friend's behaviour disrespectful, and would appreciate if friend didn't come over. Son says she is controlling his friendships, and bring friend along to an outdoor party. Should the mother then break the relationship with son?

yes, I know this is an absurd and extreme example; but is to illustrate that the whole idea of, you say once and then you shouldn't say it again, that is not ok to be upset if ignored, and just break the relationship doesn't quite work if the relationship is meaningful..... Is the only choice to break the relationship or hold your tongue? Is there no space to try to continue to reason, without being labelled controlling?

Defriend him, block him, move on with your life. First put a laughing emoji on his FB post

This^.

People don't like being pulled up on their shitty behaviour and are apt to call it controlling

That's it in a nutshell really.

I think sometimes people talk about boundaries when actually they're setting rules for the other person and crossing the line into being controlling. A boundary is something you set for yourself, not something you impose on others.

Eg. someone starts yelling at you, you say I'm not going to continue this conversation while you're yelling and take yourself away.

It's about what you decide to do when the other person's behaviour is unacceptable to you, not about trying to make them behave the way you want.

This is all very well in theory, but it doesn't really survive contact with reality. You're in a multi-decade relationship with someone, you have kids together, property together, entwined lives. They tell you they plan to do something that for good (perhaps practical) reason you absolutely cannot accept. If you say "no, you can't do that" it's controlling in MN terms; if you say "if you do that, I'm leaving you" it's MN-acceptable...ok, but leaving them is destructive of everything, not just the relationship but the lives of other people (kids in this case)... this makes no sense, that isn't a get-out-of-gaol-free solution in the way people sometimes suggest. The rational thing to do is to say "are you crazy, of course you can't do that". Some "rules for the other person" are implicit in the situation. It was implicit in our marriage that he couldn't unilaterally decide to go and spend every Wednesday night with another woman, without agreeing it with me. My pointing that out was not "controlling".

It's related, I think, to the other MN-dogma: you can leave any relationship, at any time, for any reason. Yeah, you can. But that doesn't make it a morally reasonable thing to do. You can do it - and actually it is important that you can, without needing to e.g. convince a judge that it's reasonable, that's why it's important that we have divorce - but that isn't to say that other people won't think the worse of you for doing so, or to say that they won't be absolutely correct.

I think the problem is that this is too easy for controlling or abusive people to twist around to their benefit.
For example, they could say, by walking out and not talking to me (which feels like punishment and not being heard) when I'm shouting, you are trying to coerce me to change my behaviour, ie not shout, hence controlling.
If you threaten to leave me if I don't stop drinking myself into oblivion every night, you are trying to control my behaviour, because you know I don't want you to leave.

Other side of the coin, they could demand something completely unreasonable, eg you can't ever see friends without me being present, and claim it's them setting the boundary that they don't wish to be with someone who wants alone time with others. Even something completely normal, but they try to convince you it's not normal to do that in a relationship and threaten to leave and upset the family dynamics, or walk out and refuse to talk to you. And most people want to avoid that so abide. But it's not controlling, because he is allowed to leave someone or not engage in conversation when that person behaves in a way they doesn't like (same as in the earlier examples).

But the other person doesn't want to the relationship to end or cause upset, so ends up trying to stick to these kinds of unreasonable demands.

I think in both scenarios the logic is the same, which is why it's such dangerous language.

The sole difference is the level of reasonableness (is that a word)
Basically if someone is a reasonable and loving person, they can have healthy boundaries with a spouse and they can both reasonably agree on those and respect each other.

If someone is controlling and abusive they will use the exact same language and logic but will use this against you with unreasonable demands and requests in an attempt to control you beyond what could be considered normal in a healthy relationship.