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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

One friend says another was emotionally abusive a decade ago - now I'm confused

21 replies

fffriend · 30/07/2024 14:21

Name change in case any of these women are on here. Two friends (both women) broke up a decade or so ago. I'll be honest and say my 'original' friend (friend A, let's call her Amy) is the one accused, and I'm biased towards thinking more positive of her. I met her partner (friend B, let's call her Becky) through her. While nothing was said at the time, Becky has now been posting on FB about being an abuse survivor and saying she is finally able to open up after so many years.

I'm not sure what to think - other of Becky's friends have been posting things like the 'squeaky stair' story about how people ignore abuse, and how horrible it is when people side with the abuser. But I also feel I can't throw away a multiple-decade friendship with Amy just for this story, which I'm also confused about - and particularly as reading on MN has made me wonder if it wasn't the other way around? I'm hoping people here can help me with some perspective.

I'll try to brief but will probably fail:

Becky says it was the months before their breakup when things started to go badly and when the abuse occurred. However, being 'more' Amy's friend, it was her I interacted with most in the lead up to their break up - from Amy's point of view, it was a good year beforehand, when Amy began a postgrad degree in a city distant from Becky. Amy had worked to support them while Becky worked on a PhD (which took about 2x as long as planned due to Becky having health issues), and now that Becky had graduated, Amy got a Masters+PhD scholarship, but Becky could only get a job in a city about 2 hours away. So Amy lived near her Uni in the week and went home on weekends. Becky struggled with this - she was was very unhappy in her teaching-based zero-hours contract, her health issues worsened, and she developed depression. She would often phone Amy saying she was suicidal and Amy would come home to be with her. I remember talking with Amy about how this almost always happened when Amy had something important to do (she did experiments which needed to be checked on a time schedule, plus of course classes), which she then missed and thus her studies were going poorly. We talked about how it might be Becky knowing that Amy couldn't come home which triggered the panic and suicidal thoughts. Amy also said she felt unsupported in her studies by Becky - she felt like she had supported Becky but now that it was 'her turn', Becky wanted all of Amy's time whenever she was home, even though Amy needed to study and due to coming back so much was missing a lot that she needed to catch up on. Eventually Amy convinced Becky to go to a therapist and I remember how relieved she was that Becky had someone else to support her. Although she still did mostly come back when Becky called being suicidal.

Both Amy and Becky agree on the 'flash point', although Becky called it the 'start' of their relationship problems and Amy the culmination of them. There was some day-long thing at the end of Amy's Masters, which was basically now a make-or-break thing for Amy, that she absolutely needed to be present for or she would fail (this detail wasn't in Becky's story, but I know it from Amy). That day, Becky apparently for the first time told her therapist about being suicidal - the therapist then insisted Becky needed to go to hospital and wouldn't let her leave alone as the concern over suicide was so high. Thus Becky called Amy to come get her. From Amy's story (heard at the time), I remember being slightly dubious that it really was the first time Becky had told the therapist this - Amy was really upset because she had assumed that the therapist had been helping Becky with it for months but the therapist hadn't even known. But Becky's story (told just now) backs this up - it was the first time she told the therapist. Anyway, Amy's story covers the next few months as she finally stood up for herself and didn't just do everything Becky asked. In particular, she put in an appeal for her Masters and was allowed to continue to her project while it was in consideration, and she actually took the time to do it. Amy said she realised Becky didn't care about Amy, and this lead to the break-up. (To wrap up: ultimately Amy's appeal was unsuccessful and she did fail the Masters and lost her PhD funding.) Becky's story tells more details of the pick-up and trip to the hospital, where she says Amy yelled at her the whole time, asking things like 'Why did you say this today?' and 'Why didn't you call someone closer?', and then says Amy was "emotionally abusive" (no details of what this entailed) for the next few months until they finally broke up.

So my confusion over this is, first, I've read on MN in the intervening decade about partners using threats of suicide to control another partner, and that this is abusive. Which seems to be what Becky was doing to Amy. It strikes me that Amy noticed relationship problems basically as soon as she stopped supporting Becky and tried to further her own career, but Becky only noticed them when Amy (self-reported) started 'standing up for herself' (although Amy didn't say what the details of this was either). Also, why did Becky pick that today to tell her therapist about being suicidal, after apparently keeping it secret from her for something like 6 months even though Amy thought it was the topic of the therapy, on the one day that it would mean Amy leaving her studies would mean she failed? And why didn't Becky call someone else? She had two (divorced) parents and several friends in the town she lived, but called her partner instead 2 hours away. Although I can understand this - I'd rather have my partner over my parents in such a situation, for example! Yet if I knew it would mean my partner would fail out of postgrad, might I have called a friend instead?

A decade on, Amy is clearly doing much better. She did a different Masters, got another funded PhD, got a faculty post and recently won some kind of 'young researcher' award. Becky's health problems only worsened, and she now cannot work, and can barely leave her home.

So I'm now confused - was Amy abusive? I was actually considering asking her to be godparent to my child, but is this someone I want to connect myself to forever if she an 'abuser'? Could they have both been abusive to each other? Definitely spending a car ride to hospital yelling at a suicidal person is not exemplary behaviour. And I don't know what the 'standing up for herself' versus 'emotionally abusive' behaviour actually was - and it's not as if I can ask either of them for details, that would be weird! I do remember at the time feeling a bit odd over how Amy left Becky just when Becky's health was getting worse and Becky needed more support, sort of like Amy dumped Becky due to her health. Thus I had been feeling slightly odd over Amy's behaviour at the break-up. But I'm also not entirely convinced about Becky's current story.

Another weird detail - when Amy and Becky were together, Becky told me about how she did not want kids and thus their joint pets were their 'children'. Amy was more interested in kids, but not willing to have them over a partner's objections. Yet slightly before Becky posted about the abuse, she started posting multiple times about how sad she was that she had no relationship, would probably never have one, and how this meant she would never have kids which she always had desperately wanted. So knowing that she was either not telling the truth when she told me (it would be nearly 20 years ago now or so) she didn't want kids, or rewriting the past now about having always wanted kids (I am willing to believe she developed a desire for children later, but her statements clearly don't match the 'always' she is saying now), is making me more suspicious of her current statements about abuse.

Can anyone help me make sense of this?

OP posts:
PrettyPines · 30/07/2024 17:05

I don't think you'll ever know what goes on behind closed doors. If you think Amy would be a good god-parent and have always been good to you then I wouldn't let this sway you.

Cas112 · 30/07/2024 18:15

There and two sides to every story and then the truth they say.

You'll never truly know what happened in the relationship without being in it

Crazycrazylady · 30/07/2024 21:59

Honestly I've noticed here on Mumsnet that almost every relationship post now about a couple separating mentions abuse of some kind be it verbal emotional or financial . It seems to be the go too in the event of almost every breakup. I'm not sure it's always true thought. If Amy has always been a good ready friend to you then I would take her at her wore

2sisters · 30/07/2024 22:16

Relationships end. Some end more acrimoniously than others. I think that if a relationship that ended 10 years ago still impacts someone and the details are still being discussed then they need to address that in therapy. Their truth isn't necessarily THE truth. It their perception of the truth. Honestly, I wouldn't get involved.

Grannyinnwaiting · 30/07/2024 22:46

I wouldn't cut Amy loose. There are too many uncertainties. I had a a dreadful marital break up many years ago. Being kind to my ex he was having a terrible alcoholic breakdown but the lies he told were terrible - he told people i was a swinger, that i had punched him 3 times on the nose and on another occasion kicked his shins. He forbade his family to speak to me - I assume they believed him. Other people didn't ( I think) because these and other claims he made were so outrageous but it makes me cautious about blindly accepting claims of abuse having been on the completely innocent side of a serious, reputation damaging, fiction.

MaterCogitaVera · 31/07/2024 00:02

I have opinions on various parts of your post, but I’m not sure they’ll be helpful so I will only address one thing. You say that you feel Amy may have abandoned Becky when her health was getting worse. And yet it sounds as though Becky had struggled from much earlier in the relationship - she took extra time to complete her PhD, for example. And Amy appears to have supported her throughout that, even though it must have meant delaying her own plans for postgrad study by many years. A PhD in the UK usually takes at least 3 years, so if Becky took twice as long as planned, that suggests Amy was supporting her studies for years longer than originally anticipated. That’s quite a commitment - and makes me think Becky had significant health issues, since Universities don’t like granting long extension periods for postgrads without some serious medical documentation.

So on that basis, I suspect you can lay to rest your worries that Amy somehow abandoned Becky. Everything you’ve told us makes me think that Amy had spent years supporting Becky through some fairly serious ill health. In addition, it’s absolutely true that threatening suicide can be a form of abuse. But even if the person isn’t doing it to be manipulative, it takes a heavy toll on the person hearing the threats. It’s okay for someone to decide that they can’t deal with that any more.

I’ve had mental health struggles in the past, and I recognise now that I was selfish and challenging and very stressful to live with during those periods. I didn’t mean to be, and I couldn’t see it at the time because I was very ill. But I lost some friends - mainly those who were most directly in contact with me day to day, and who therefore bore the brunt of my behaviour - and I do not blame them one bit for ending the friendship. I have reached out since to apologise, and they’ve been gracious enough to accept my apologies, but I’ve never tried to reestablish the friendship because I respect their decision to walk away. It wasn’t my fault that I was ill, but it also wasn’t their fault that they couldn’t deal with how the illness made me behave.

I hope all of that makes some sense. I just want to offer that perspective on Amy’s choice to leave Becky, I guess.

fffriend · 31/07/2024 14:06

Thanks everyone. I don't want to get involved - but Becky is sort of making it everyone's issue? Also, I didn't put this in the OP as it got so long, but there is another friend (C, let's call her Cindy) who I met as their mutual friend after the breakup, as Cindy moved to my city. So I now interact with Cindy more than Amy or Becky, but Cindy is definitely on Becky's 'side' and has been one of the most vocal on FB, calling on people to unfriend Amy, have nothing to do with her, etc. So continuing to be friends with Amy may make interactions with Cindy awkward, although I probably can just not talk about Amy with her (not like we did before - we talk about our town and other shared interests). One thing I have done is made my Friends list private so Cindy and Becky can't see that I'm still Amy's FB Friend, as I'd really rather not be called out and pulled into something weird over FB.

As far as I can tell, Amy has no clue any of this is going on. Becky and Cindy are no longer her FB friends (although don't know when that happened) but a fair number of people are still both of their friends - I don't know if anyone is telling Amy about this, but I haven't as I feel (1) it feels weirdly tattling/school yard (eg 'your ex is now complaining about things that happened 10 years ago' is a strange thing to pass on), and (2) could only hurt her, so why do so?

@Grannyinnwaiting - thanks for sharing your story. Sorry you went through that. Yes, that is one thing I'm worried about. I'm reasonably sure Amy was VERY MAD at Becky in those last few months, especially once her appeal failed. I'm sure there were lots of arguments. But I don't know what 'emotional abuse' would entail - maybe just being told Becky had destroyed Amy's career (as it appeared at the time) through her depression and decision to share suicidal thoughts with her therapist on that key day, was viewed by Becky as guilt-riding and abusive, but also basically true. When they broke up, Becky was the one doing much better - she had an advanced degree, a job (although a reasonably crap one she hated), plus she kept the flat, whereas Amy had now failed out of postgrad, was bringing in no income, and had to go live her with parents, with no clear future.

@MaterCogitaVera - sorry to hear of your struggles and your lost friends. What you say makes a lot of sense. Yes, Amy did support Becky to a great extent! I'm unsure of the details, but there were a number of leaves of absence and then going part time, so it was a good 8 years or so for the PhD, far more than 3 years! (although I'm vaguely remembering 4 as a plan - there may have been a Masters to start as well). I remember Amy applying to postgrad a year before Becky finished, with a bit of trepidation that something might happen and things be delayed yet again, but Becky finished just as Amy started her Masters. And Becky's health was clearly very poor and has only gotten worse. I can see how giving lots of support to someone who seemed to take that for granted and then never supported you back could be a deal-breaker, even minus everything else around Amy's degree.

I think I was also somewhat influenced by basically not entirely believing one of Amy's main complaints at the time, which was feeling betrayed by Becky who Amy had thought was having support for her mental health and yet discovering that Becky had not shared the main point of seeing a therapist (to deal with suicidal thoughts so Amy could feel comfortable being 2 hours away) with the therapist. It just seemed so odd that Becky's need for help was predicated on this unusual feature, and I wondered if Amy had exaggerated the level of crisis to justify coming to the 'rescue' as she did - I now feel a bit bad for disbelieving Amy, but I didn't say anything at the time, as I was mostly just acting as listening support. I also wondered why Amy didn't call one of Becky's parents or their mutual friends in Becky's city, instead of getting Becky herself, an action that she knew would result in failing her postgrad. I do still wonder this. I suspect Amy can be a bit of an intentional martyr and/or is very much a people-pleaser so wanted to do everything Becky asked - but again I said nothing of this at the time as it's not really my business!

I guess I was looking for reassurance that it's okay to keep being Amy's friend, despite Becky's and her FB friends' posts and articles. I think I can keep Amy as a friend unless things become much more clear (which I struggle to see how they could) and just be careful on FB (and not invite Cindy to any christening celebration that involves Amy, which I might very well have done knowing she had been Amy's friend!).

OP posts:
leeverarch · 31/07/2024 14:23

What a mess. I'd be telling all three of them to keep their fighting to themselves and leave you out of it, or they will lose you as a friend.

fffriend · 31/07/2024 14:25

Oh, and I guess another point which isn't entirely relevant to the whole Amy/Becky thing but is tied up in my feelings towards both of them, is that I have now been diagnosed with one of the conditions Becky has. So I was starting to interact more with Becky as support for learning about my own health issues (and Cindy has a related condition). Then my thoughts about Amy were tied into what if she left Becky because of this, and what does she think of me? So this blow up between them (or, really, from Becky) has really confused me.

OP posts:
LilyBartsHatShop · 31/07/2024 14:35

@fffriend it sets off alarm bells for me that Becky and Cindy are hashing all this out on Facebook.
I'm no longer on FB, one of the reasons is because I found people behaved so badly there. Basically, people lie on Facebook, even people who aren't at all deceitful usually. I think it encourages a kind of "this is my truth" attitude so people paint the picture that puts them in the best light - But it goes further than that. They tell a fiction that they pretend is reality.

fffriend · 31/07/2024 14:38

leeverarch · 31/07/2024 14:23

What a mess. I'd be telling all three of them to keep their fighting to themselves and leave you out of it, or they will lose you as a friend.

See, I guess my initial reaction was to distance myself from Becky and Cindy because there really isn't anything to tell Amy - Amy has never said anything very bad about Becky, even though given what I know went on, she definitely could have (she never suggested Becky was manipulative, for example, that was only my own wonder after time reading things on MN). Everything from Amy was how she didn't feel supported by Becky in her trying to start her career, after giving a lot of support in the other direction, and felt betrayed by Becky's keeping her suicidal thoughts from the therapist until a very key day. Amy isn't involved in the current FB drama and appears completely ignorant of it.

But then doing that was basically what all those articles they were posting are about - how people side with the 'abuser'. So I was hesitating because I didn't want to be that thing, if that makes sense?

OP posts:
fffriend · 31/07/2024 14:46

LilyBartsHatShop · 31/07/2024 14:35

@fffriend it sets off alarm bells for me that Becky and Cindy are hashing all this out on Facebook.
I'm no longer on FB, one of the reasons is because I found people behaved so badly there. Basically, people lie on Facebook, even people who aren't at all deceitful usually. I think it encourages a kind of "this is my truth" attitude so people paint the picture that puts them in the best light - But it goes further than that. They tell a fiction that they pretend is reality.

Oh, thanks - that is very interesting. It makes some sense of the confusing 'I always desperately wanted kids' posts Becky has been making, which seems to have come out of nowhere. When Amy and Becky were together it was Becky who did not want kids (which I heard directly from Becky), and Amy who sort of did but was okay with not having them if her partner didn't. Becky has posted before about the struggles of dating while disabled, but nothing about wanting children until very recently. So it's a strange rewriting of the past. Then this abuse stuff.

I'm actually now starting to wonder if Amy's recent award has triggered something in Becky? I can't remember the timing if the kid stuff appeared after Amy posted about her award, but the abuse stuff definitely did. So potentially Becky learned about Amy's award (they may have even still been FB friends then? not like I keep track of that!), and some kind of jealously of the complete swap of their relative positions in life since the break-up kicked in?

OP posts:
EG94 · 31/07/2024 14:46

Abuse is something which is typically sustained over a period of time with repeated abusive behaviours. Unless there is anything else either of them add, it would seem to me, Amy had enough of Becky emotionally manipulating her and at that point of time cost her career and she reacted badly to that and walked away from the relationship. I don’t see and speaking as someone who was in an abusive relationship having the occasionally heated row with some raised voices and a bit of swearing as abuse. I’d say that’s pretty normal, even name calling. Some will say oh she called me a dickhead in a row and he called me a bitch, unpleasant yes but providing the rows are few and far between and a resolution is found, accountability for not being ones best self, it’s a bit normal in my opinion. Daily name calling and making someone feel they aren’t good enough, dragging them down, control and all the other abuse that comes with it, that’s abuse. One isolated row with two upset people who say / do some unkind things it’s not abuse.

trust your gut on this one, likely Becky will unfriend you anyway tbh.

Ponderingwindow · 31/07/2024 14:49

Relationships end and most of the time both parties are have some responsibility.

While we should listen to people who report abuse, Becky’s own story sets her as a villain as much as a victim. She sabotaged Amy’s education. She has no right asking people to ostracize Amy now.

fffriend · 31/07/2024 14:58

Ponderingwindow · 31/07/2024 14:49

Relationships end and most of the time both parties are have some responsibility.

While we should listen to people who report abuse, Becky’s own story sets her as a villain as much as a victim. She sabotaged Amy’s education. She has no right asking people to ostracize Amy now.

Thanks - I was sort of feeling like this but very confused as Becky has been so helpful to me in my own health issues.

Although Becky's story doesn't include the make-or-break detail about Amy's degree, or even the impact at the time on Amy (which everyone who is a mutual friend will know is a succesful and award-wining researcher now - not sure how widely Amy shared the failing of her first Masters with anyone), so she isn't painting herself as a villan to anyone who doesn't have some background knowledge. But I did find it interesting about Becky's post emphasised Amy yelling the 'today' questions which I knew was a very important day, so immediately understood why Amy was asking that!

OP posts:
MaterCogitaVera · 31/07/2024 19:06

If I were Amy, I think I would want to know about this - certainly if she is being mentioned by name on FB. There is nothing “playground gossip” about telling a friend that they are being slandered on social media and that others are being encouraged to cut contact. It might be better for her to hear it from someone who cares about her, rather than find out because someone who believes that she is a monster decides to take her to task for it. If she knows what’s being said, she can prepare herself.

Of course, you have to weigh this up against your own emotional wellbeing. If you really can’t face telling her, that’s perfectly valid. And you’re there, on the ground, and can best determine whether telling Amy
would do more harm than good.

But if you’re mainly being held back by fear that it would be gossiping, I would say don’t be - Amy probably should know that these things are being said semi-publicly about her, and that Cindy is encouraging people to cut Amy out of their lives. Telling her, factually, that this is happening isn’t gossip. Becky and Cindy aren’t blowing off steam to one or two friends, who can be trusted to keep things to themselves - they’re making this into a public inquisition, whereas (it seems) Amy hasn’t ever tried to badmouth Becky in this way - you’ve had to do a lot of reading between the lines to realise quite how bad things were for Amy in this relationship.

I’m so sorry that you’re caught up in all this drama. I think Amy is lucky to have you as a friend who is willing to keep an open mind about these accusations, because there will be many others who will enjoy jumping on the outrage bandwagon.

leeverarch · 31/07/2024 22:28

After ten years and an awful lot of water under the bridge for everyone, it does make you wonder - why do this now? Why suddenly go on the attack all these years later?

fffriend · 01/08/2024 11:45

leeverarch · 31/07/2024 22:28

After ten years and an awful lot of water under the bridge for everyone, it does make you wonder - why do this now? Why suddenly go on the attack all these years later?

Edited

Yeah, @leeverarch , that's what I'm starting to wonder and if it might actually be related to Amy's award and just making everything really stark for Becky - she's definitely got a crap lot in life at the moment, undergoing painful medical treatments, having more problems crop up and so on. So I'm now thinking it could be more a re-writing of the past to view what had to have been a very acrimonious time as abusive - which she may very well believe wholeheartedly - just to make sense of how her life has gone the way it has. Whereas 10 years ago she was the one with the potential future and Amy a failure.

@MaterCogitaVera - hmm, I must say it really hadn't occurred to me too much to say anything to Amy. It seems so randomly out of the blue and weird to bring up. I've just done a quick scan and while Cindy and her partner have both dropped Amy as a friend, and Amy's brother has dropped Becky, there are still a good pile of joint friends from Uni where I met the two of them, as well as the person I'm pretty sure is the connection to Cindy (partner of another of Amy's exes from Uni - that ex is still both Amy's and Becky's friend). I wouldn't know much more about who used to be Amy's FB friend, but I know those three, but I also don't know when Amy's brother dropped Becky - it could have been at the time of the breakup! No idea if Becky/Cindy are restricting their posts to maybe people they (think they) know better, or if the rest are just leaving it be as I am. I don't recognise Becky's other supporters, so they may not have ever been joint friends with Amy. Maybe Amy's brother told her? (Although Amy recently sent me and Cindy a message about a potential visit to our city that seemed completely ignorant of the idea that Cindy doesn't like her anymore, or even that Cindy isn't in her friends list anymore...) Because I now live quite far from Amy, I don't interact with her as much as I did 10 years ago, although obviously still view her as a close friend (e.g., she was the first person I told I was pregnant, even before DH! - I was traveling for work and wanted advice on how to tell DH, waiting until I got back or not). I will think on it, though, if it looks like it could be accelerating into something that could actually hurt Amy's career (she's got >1K FB friends many of whom I suspect could be professional, but I doubt they'll hear anything from Becky/Cindy).

OP posts:
fffriend · 01/08/2024 11:46

Starting to really be with the person who said they've gone off FB - it's a quagmire!

OP posts:
SummerInSun · 01/08/2024 12:14

I'd absolutely stay out of this. (And off Facebook). By all means maintain relationships with all three of you can and want to, but don't get drawn into it. If it comes up, say you don't feel comfortable discussing it. If they insist on trying to draw you or take sides, then you may lose Becky and Cindy as friends for refusing to do so, but that's their call.

MaterCogitaVera · 01/08/2024 13:27

I abandoned Facebook years ago, when a close family member started behaving really badly, including saying really unpleasant things to some of my friends when they commented on posts I’d made. I wouldn’t have thought that Facebook was bad for my MH, but I actually felt so much better after I left. I definitely recommend it!

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