Spooked by abuse website

[libeoni]

Sorry this might be a big post but I’m currently swapping between panic, confusion and feeling like i'm over-reacting.

I saw an article on here in another thread, linking to the Relate website “Emotional Abuse”.
Emotional abuse | Relate

I read it yesterday and honestly my heart dropped as a lot of it sounds more familiar than I would like to admit. I spent a couple of hours feeling really panicked.
But then today, DP is showing all of his positives, a lot of the stuff I’m worried about are in isolation “small things”. So today I feel like maybe I was over-reacting, creating a problem that’s not there.

DP’s biggest issue is that he doesn’t communicate well as he gets defensive easily – but that I think that’s learnt behaviour that he doesn’t even realise he’s doing rather than being deliberately manipulative. So then I feel bad for even thinking he could be abusive.

I know I haven’t been clear enough in telling him when things are bothering me, I’ve let things go just to keep the peace. So I know I need to get more clear in my own head what my boundaries are and actually tell them to DP to give him chance to change. I'm going to start doing that but I think am posting still to have an outside sense check after spooking myself yesterday.

Under the headings from the Relate article I’ve written down some of the things happening so thought I’d share that below. This reads as a very negative list but this is the minority of the time, incidents over years, not things happening all the time. DP can also be fun, generous, loyal. He’s very committed, trustworthy, I have no reason to think he’d ever cheat etc. so lots of positives too.

Intimidation & Threats
When DP gets overwhelmed, stressed or annoyed he gets angry. Over the years I’ve seen things thrown if they're not working, swearing and driving too close to another car during road-rage, speeding off in his car after an argument, lots of swearing and just “sounding and looking angry” during an argument e.g. clenched jaw, clenched fist. There was also one time after somebody had upset him (not me but I was there) when he punched a wall in the house. He said he'd never do that again and to my knowledge he hasnt. I’ve excused a lot of it because it’s not directed at me but I’ve noticed that I do feel anxious when he’s angry. If I can tell that something I’m saying is causing stress then I typically just don’t say it.

Criticism
I don’t think we have name-calling or direct criticism but when I saw in the relate article that it said unpleasant or sarcastic comments that sounds more familiar. A common one is “you never agree with what I want so why don’t you just pick” – normally said if I said I've disagreed with something he's suggested.

Undermining
DP hardly ever listens to the opinions of anybody else – very rarely to me but I’ve also noticed he rarely listens to the opinions of his family. For example I said to him that I didn’t want the dog to be let off the lead as I was worried he wouldn’t come back - he ignored me and let him off the lead anyway. He thinks I'm over-reacting about everything so just ignores my opinion. Sometimes he doesn't even respond when I speak.

DP treats so many things that I say like I’m over-reacting. When I say that the car is messy he'll tell me I'm too neat or he doesn't know what I sees. When I tell him that it feels like he’s not listening to me, he'll say just because I’m not looking at you doesn’t mean I’m not listening. When I was struggling with having lots on at work he said that he doesn’t understand why things always seem to be so difficult in my life. There’s been several times where I’ve pointed out something I don’t like and he’s told me to stop making things serious, why do you always have to make things serious, I was only joking etc.

Being made to feel guilty
Lost count of the amount of times he’s sulked or shown subtle unhappiness. When he’s got annoyed with me during a discussion he’s said he’s done with talking, left the room and gone to bed at 8pm. Or left to go to work without a goodbye. Walked around the house giving me one word answers. When I try to speak to him in those moments he tells me he wants to be alone or he doesn’t want to hear it, totally blocks me. The longest it lasted for was about 8-10 hours. And then suddenly when he’s ready he behaves like nothing happened, will go back to life as normal.

For the subtle stuff I can get an “oh, right, okay” with a clear hint of dissatisfaction over anything from not wanting to eat the same thing to not wanting to do or watch the same thing, to not wanting to come with him to visit his parents.

Economic abuse
Really lucky that I’m financially independent so this one has never really occurred to me before. But there have been a couple of times where after an argument he’s said he wants to change something we’ve previously agreed about finances – for example, where we’d both been putting money into a joint bank account to use for an upcoming holiday with my friends but then after an argument he said maybe I should go on holiday without him and that I just need to make sure I don’t use his part of the money in that account.

When I read that list back I'm worried that it doesn't sound good :(

What happens if you try and discuss any of these behaviours with him?

Do you ever "get your way" about anything?

@JanglyBeads - it's been a long time since I properly tried to sit down and raise anything with him. I've avoided doing it recently as there were lots of times where I tried to do that and it ended up in a tense conversation, nothing got resolved and often it made things worse as it ended up in him going to bed annoyed so then the tension continued into the next day too. I guess I'm realising now though that keeping the peace short term isn't going to help in the long term - I need to start remembering what I want and telling him

You are right it doesn't sound good. 😔

I'd suggest counselling for yourself op. Ideally without him knowing.

Right now I have a life where I can say what I want to eat in a carefree way without worrying or adjusting, I can just come out with it happily. Can you?? Same with playing music, painting a room, watching something, etc.

I had a partner once that when I finally left him I realised I'd forgotten who I was. What music I liked to play loudly in the house. What takeaway was my favourite. What furniture I wanted. Etc Because I always adjusted to him. 😔 It was a very slow boiled frog effect on a laid back people pleaser. So subtle and sneaky he slowly chipped away with his moods and sulks and barbed comments until he got his own way every day without me really even thinking much about it.

Thought experiment - does it matter, or does it only matter if you decide to stary with him?

My ExH was like this, very much a nice guy to others. I bet he only takes it out on you, right?

Thanks so much for your replies.

I’ll definitely look into counselling as I think you’re right that not only do I need to work out what my boundaries but actually who I am too. I do just go along with what DP wants 99% of the time and I know I can fall into the habit of people pleasing.

I guess none of what I posted matters if the relationship ends - I think the issue is that deep down I don’t want the relationship to end. I want it to work. So seeing familiarity in emotional abuse panicked me as really that would mean I couldn’t stay.

im going to try the counselling, boundaries and telling DP how I’m feeling and hopefully that will help to clear things up.

at the moment I’m just getting annoyed with myself that when something bad happens I start panicking but then as soon as things are calm again I think I was over reacting. It’s a very rollercoaster place to be and I’m getting frustrated with my own seesawing

Do you think you are being 'conditioned' by his anger/stress/subtle dissatisfaction to not raise things or disagree with him? It doesn't matter whether the behaviour is deliberate or not, if it's manipulative or abusive, then it is unacceptable. And it doesn't matter if it's 'learnt behaviour', or from a difficult childhood if it makes you walk on eggshells, it's not acceptable. Are these the qualities you want in a partner? The biggest red flag from your description is the road rage/aggressive driving. Take a look at Dr Ramani's videos on YouTube.

Do you have childen OP? If so what is like with them? If not how does he behave in family situations, both yours and his own. Do you feel you are often walking on eggshells to keep the peace?

Thanks for the questions and things to think about.

I definitely do censor what I'm saying and doing... I go out of my way to avoid causing or adding stress in his life because I know when he gets stressed or feels wronged - thats when the angriness or passive aggressiveness comes out. So I'll hide if I'm stressed about something to avoid setting him off, will do jobs myself rather than asking him to do it, and don't bother to give my opinion on lots of stuff as whats the point if I'll stress him out that I'm making it less simple and at the end of it he doesnt listen anyway. So if its not that important to me then I just leave it and go with what he wants.

I'm confused though about is whether it's his behaviour "making me walk on eggshells" or whether I'm creating that eggshell feeling by myself. I'm choosing that eggshell path because I don't want the tension or falling outs. But when I've mentioned it to DP that I feel like he gets annoyed with me a lot or I don't like anger etc he basically says he thinks thats normal sometimes in relationships and I'm over-worrying.

We do have DC and of course as you'd expect with DC they can be a source of stress too when they're not behaving themselves. DP can be great with them when everything is going well but when theyre not behaving he's quick to get stressed out. I tell him to just leave me to deal with them when theyre being difficult as I'd rather that than worry about him getting stressed and starting to shout / flap as then everybody gets upset and it takes hours to go back to normal. It doesn't always work though - at the weekend for example we we'd just arrived at a day out, he'd been stressed by the car journey where he couldnt just walk away from them playing up and so by the time we arrived and they did one more thing he said forget it I've had enough we're going home and I'm going out by myself. Stupidly I just got back in the car with the kids and went home when really I probably should have said you go if you want to but were staying

I confess that I haven't read all of your post, but I just wanted to say that there is something a very blurry line between abuse and unpleasant behaviour, and they can cross over.

Things don't always fit into neat boxes. Most people have at one point demonstrated behaviour that would also be on that list, but do they deserve to be called 'an abuser'? Some people just don't make good romantic partners either. People shouldn't put up with that, but I don't think that alone is enough to label them as abusers.

I feel bad for you that he doesn't value your opinion.

The longest it lasted for was about 8-10 hours. And then suddenly when he’s ready he behaves like nothing happened, will go back to life as normal

Again, it's blurred. Some people are genuinely angry and take a long time to come out of a bad mood or soothe themselves. They may have been brought up in a home where they never saw conflict resolution, or they might feel embarrassed to talk about more sensitive emotions. Maybe they blow-up easily, so they've just leant to self-isolate until they come out of it and then want to move on. I'm not saying it's right, and that's very painful for the other person. It's a personality flaw, but it it abuse?

On the other hand, there are people who deliberately punish their partner by sulking. It's a silent act of aggression, and quite often (not always), the sulker quite likes an audience so that it makes the whole thing extra painful for the other person. Yes, that is abusive, and a lot of controlling people do that as they know they can't always rant & rave the other person into submission.

OP - just know that a relationship doesn't need to be labelled as abusive in order for you to leave. Don't let this stop you from doing so if it's an unhealthy relationship for you, where you continuously feel bad being around the other person, or that they're dangerous to you in some way.

With the eggshells - yes, you might feel like you have to do this. It can occur with different personality styles and difference in conflict resolution, although there are particular nuances that are important to note when it comes to relationships between men & women in particular, due to the fact that men are are stronger.

It's not abusive to raise one's voice. That would be like saying it's abusive to frown, but it can be used as a silencing tactic which is wrong. Some people are used to doing that in heated arguments where their relationship is otherwise fine, and some people do like a bit of conflict or drama in their relationship even, otherwise they get bored.

However, you don't have to be ok with that.

Whether your relationship is abusive or not you do not like it at the moment. You need to see how it is possible to change it bearing in mind it will take both of you to do that. Does he think you have a bad relationship, and would he be willing to change? Or does he think everything is your fault?

Definitely get counselling for yourself so you can be more aware of your wants and boundaries. It's not advised to get joint counselling with an abuser so he would need to get separate counselling first. If it goes well for you both separately then you could go joint.

Over the years I’ve seen things thrown if they're not working, swearing and driving too close to another car during road-rage, speeding off in his car after an argument, lots of swearing and just “sounding and looking angry” during an argument e.g. clenched jaw, clenched fist. If I can tell that something I’m saying is causing stress then I typically just don’t say it.
By the way, he's already trained you to shut up and be quiet. That's what abusive, angry men do first. Low level abuse is still abuse. Yours has been sustained over many years which imho tips it over from unpleasantness into abuse.

Thank you so both so much for the detailed and helpful replies.

You're absolutely right that I'm tying myself in a knot since seeing that website about whether or not I've been putting up with abuse (which then creates a new dynamic of me feeling guilty for even thinking of DP that way) - when really any labels for whats going on don't even matter. What matters is whether the relationship is working.

I think I need to work out exactly what I want from a relationship, what my boundaries are, and then need to start actually speaking to DP again about things that are bothering me. Then from there it should become clearer whether theyre issues we can work through together or not.

You're right that it's blurry because I think he is genuinely angry when he storms off etc, rather than doing it with the mindset of punishment - I don't think its that self aware. I think maybe as you describe he leaves as part of his initial anger / not blowing up further and then he does want to just move on once hes calm rather than bringing the upset back up - but that makes me feel silenced as I cant speak when he storms off and cant speak when he comes back without escalating things again. Although maybe sometimes it does feel a bit more like a deliberate silence too as he'll walk past us all in the house perfectly calm but not even acknowledge us and if I try to speak to him he'll shut it down. I guess either way, whether its deliberate or not, I need to ask myself whether I can live with the volatility.

At least by talking to DP about it again it gives me chance to clearly say and see what we both want and whether we are both willing to make any changes to get there. it's a long time since I last tried to talk to him about this stuff as in the past if I said something was upsetting me it normally was taken as a criticism, caused him to get defensive and say things like everything is always his fault. Which of course isnt the case but meant nothing got resolved.

Thank you again

That's why you need to work out what YOU want before you approach him. Once you know what you want your future to look like then you can have a rough plan on how to achieve it, what you can do as well as him, including communication counselling.

I understand what you are going through as my mind was blown too except I had suspected DARVO to contend with. Was it me being abusive or him? In the end I decided the relationship was too toxic to continue and it didn't matter who was right or wrong as we just weren't good together, and there was no point in counselling to fix it as too many years of anger and frustration had happened. I would always feel resentment of the past no matter how much he changed and that made my decision easier. We are now in the process of separating.

at the weekend for example we we'd just arrived at a day out, he'd been stressed by the car journey where he couldnt just walk away from them playing up and so by the time we arrived and they did one more thing he said forget it I've had enough we're going home and I'm going out by myself. Stupidly I just got back in the car with the kids and went home when really I probably should have said you go if you want to but were staying

This is quite something. That it didn't even occur to you to argue with him or flat out refuse. This says you've been conditioned, and yes he is very likely to be abusive.

@AutumnFroglets - mind blown is a great description for it - it seems to be occupying so much of my thoughts and even making it difficult to work. Even before reading the website I've spent a lot of time picking apart conversations, wondering how it could have been handled differently, etc, so constantly occupying thoughts and energy. It's great to hear you got to a point of clarity and I hope you're doing well now.

@JanglyBeads -
This is quite something. That it didn't even occur to you to argue with him or flat out refuse.
That was a particularly rubbish day. DP had been getting more and more agitated in the car because DC were messing about, complaining about everything, not being quiet when asked etc. So things were already really tense. Then when we arrived DC moaned about not wanting to be there and DP hit his snapping point. Once he gets to that point there's no point trying to reason with him as he won't listen and if anything it will just turn things into a bigger problem. So I think thats why I've got into a habit of just letting him blow while I keep quiet and wait for it to blow over.
On this one he shouted I've had enough of this, its an effing joke, we're going home. He then immediately walked off and left me and DC stood on our own - so I spent a few minutes talking to DC to explain we were going home, please behave in the car. Then we walked back to the car, DP didnt even acknowledge us and we drove home in very awkward silence. Where DP continued to ignore all of us for a good few hours, including me even though I hadn't done anything to fall out with him! I look back and think I was so weak to just let him carry on like that. In the moment it just seemed like the easiest thing to do.

He’s trained you not to even raise this. He’s training your children to do the same thing. Everyone has their bad days but it doesn’t sound like there’s much give and take here.

Plus punching a hole on the wall is just awful. That’s not just emotional abuse, that’s physical and very threatening.

Even before reading the website I've spent a lot of time picking apart conversations, wondering how it could have been handled differently, etc, so constantly occupying thoughts and energy.
That's a sign. Where you wonder if you had said it differently, or chosen different words, or used a different tone, or waited until he was in a better mood, or after dinner, or said it in a lighthearted manner, etc etc etc. There will never be a right time or right words or tone from you. You can never win. Well you can, sort of. And that's by total capitulation of your body, mind and soul. But that's not winning is it, that's total destruction of you. And he doesn't care as long as he wins. It's a game. And it's one where you will lose and your children will learn to play it and think its part of a normal, healthy relationship.

I'm surviving. Then I read posts like yours and realise I taught my two darling adult daughters how to appease men, how to people please, how to squash down their independence, their thoughts, their feelings. That they do not matter. And I fear for them. They remember me telling them I will ask daddy when he's in a better mood, or that I'm thinking of the right words to talk to him, or I will ask tomorrow - but I usually only needed him to drive them to a friends birthday party ffs. My biggest regret is not getting out when they were young.

Where you wonder if you had said it differently, or chosen different words, or used a different tone, or waited until he was in a better mood, or after dinner, or said it in a lighthearted manner, etc etc etc.

This does sound very familiar!
Perhaps I should have brought it up at the time rather than dragging it back up Perhaps I should have brought it up later when it was calm rather than in the heat of the moment
Maybe I should stand up for myself more firmly
Maybe I need to let things go more
Maybe I need to be better at handling stuff so my stress doesn't rub off on him
Maybe I need to be clearer when I say things so I get my message out quicker
I wish I'd said this instead of that...
The thoughts go round endlessly, every time something happens I pick apart what just happened and how it could have been different.

I do worry as you've both said about what my DC are learning. I try not to make justifications when DP is getting annoyed, short tempered, storms off, even say to them people shouldnt ignore you when you speak etc. But equally I know that they see nothing being done about it and that still speaks volumes. Or worse see me managing DP's moods by asking DC to be a bit quieter, trying to jump in and distract conversations that are sliding, etc. 😞 I need to stop trying to manage the situation and just let it play out.

I'm sorry to hear that this post has triggered worries about your DDs @AutumnFroglets - I understand totally what you're saying but you've also shown them an example now of how to stand up for yourself so hopefully that still sends a powerful example and message? if my feelings are anything to go by its hard to leave when theyre younger too because of the different worries and guilt that a separation causes.