Is this gaslighting or normal relationship ups and downs?

[Yewtreeberries]

I’m about to write a textbook example of the sort of argument that plays out a lot in our household. It’s nothing major, but it is really starting to get to me.

We’ve been married nearly 15 years. Married young-ish; DC in teens.

We have dogs, and H was out at work for most of the day. Dogs were left with me as I work from home. That’s fine; they weren’t an issue. It might be relevant to say here that H does at least three quarters of the dog walking and care, because essentially they are his dogs. His taking on the bulk of the work was the deal in terms of me agreeing to get dogs. I do love the dogs, and it has mostly turned out fine (despite the expense!) He did say he wouldn’t leave them with me much at all, and to be honest, the time they are left with me is beginning to creep up. But it’s been okay and I haven’t complained, because the dogs are now wonderful company (now that we are through the woes of toilet training, etc.) So it really isn’t too much extra effort.

When H came back from work today, I started getting ready to go out at about 5pm in order to pick up some medication before the pharmacy shut at 5:30. I had already told H a couple of hours earlier that I would be doing this, and that I was going to walk rather than drive the car (twenty minute walk, or thereabouts). The dogs heard me getting ready to go out, came running downstairs and started getting excitable because they were hungry and thought me moving about meant it was dinner time. I called up to H to let him know the dogs wanted their dinner, he shouted down to me to feed them then, because unlike me, he’s working - he’d logged back on after getting home. I say (admittedly rather abruptly, but not rudely) that I can’t; I have to go out now, because I’m walking to the most pharmacy, not driving, and if I don’t leave now I might not get there in time.

I am told, “It’s all about you, isn’t it? There you go, sort yourself out, it’s fine, I’ll do it.” Then when I reacted at the unfairness of this (I had told him I wanted the walk and didn’t want to drive), I was told that I can’t be all that desperate to get to the shop, since I’m spending an awful lot of time standing there trying to argue my point.

He says these sorts of things a lot and it’s affected how I feel about him. I don’t feel we are part of a team, and I don’t feel he sees me as an equal (and haven’t for a long time, if ever - I have always earned less, although went further than him academically, not that this matters I suppose). I don’t feel excited to share things with him and I no longer particularly enjoy spending time with him alone. There’s usually not much curiosity in his approach to conversation - it tends to be very matter of fact. Time with him now involves the dogs, and as they’re so loveable, they make things fun at least. A bit like when the DC were little.

I have taken up a hobby over the past few years and I am glad to be out of the house doing something different. Sometimes I am accused - in a deliberately half-jokey way - of ‘abandoning my family’ when I spend whole days away doing my hobby. I do not leave anybody in the lurch; days are planned in advance and in the calendar. Mid teen DC are getting increasingly independent so childcare is no longer an issue.

I feel like H has two moods; he’s either chirpy chappy (which he seems able to switch on for work with no problem) or a miserable grump who wants everything to run to a schedule and struggles with not being in control and having things go his way. Then I feel bad, because he does loads of stuff around the house, and I feel I ought to be grateful for that, and suck it up.

I’m just feeling confused. When this sort of thing happens, he will never address it and just act normal shortly afterwards as if nothing has happened. For example, he’ll start playing with the dog acting all cheerful, so if I still act glum then he will say I am sulking. But really I’m just seething with the sense of injustice. And left wondering if I am overreacting? I start doubting myself, wondering to what extent it was me who elicited this reaction.

Does anyone else have this in their relationship? How do you approach it?

"gaslighting" is a deliberate tactic by an abuser to make their victim think that they have lost their grip on reality - that they are imagining, hearing, or seeing things that haven't happened.

What you've got, by the sounds of it, is just your common or garden crap communicator / grumpy Arsehole.

Only you can decide whether you want to try to rescue your relationship from the Jaws of death - and once you start holding each other in contempt, death of any marriage is close. Or just call it quits now and walk away amicably before you begin to really hate each other.

Sorry to hear you do not feel as an equal:(.
There's things that flag up to me here. Have you spoken to him on how you feel? If not is it because you know he won't listen or change?
You are a mother who has raised children and for her life back good for you if you have a hobby and enjoy it. You're abandoning nobody by this. Your life you're entitled to have some fun! Wishing you all the best x

I feel like H has two moods; he’s either chirpy chappy (which he seems able to switch on for work with no problem) or a miserable grump who wants everything to run to a schedule and struggles with not being in control and having things go his way. Then I feel bad, because he does loads of stuff around the house, and I feel I ought to be grateful for that, and suck it up.

I could have written this word for word. Turns out my H has ADHD. This means very poor emotional intelligence. But it CAN be improved with conscious, deliberate work.

@EvenMoreFuriousVexation
I fear you may be right. I don’t think we picked the right person for each other. I feel I am holding out until DC have left home and then I can rethink the situation. He would actually make a decent friend; when I see him around friends he can be good company. But I very much doubt he would be able to remain friendly if we split up. He would see me as the person who ripped the family apart and took away a comfortable future from us both.

@Secretlysurviving Thank you for such a lovely response. I have brought it up in the past. What tends to happen is he brings up things that are unrelated, such as housework/chores I haven’t done, or the fact he pays for more stuff (he earns double what I earn). In other words, trying to demonstrate how we are quits and/or I have nothing to complain about, as in the grand scheme of things I’ve got it made. He has apologised in the past for being grumpy, but he always lapses back (and he will blame it on me not doing x, y and z).

From his perspective, he probably feels I am distant and switching off, which is likely making him grumpier, because I am not showing appreciation. I’m definitely not perfect and I know I should fake it until I feel it - like you when you go overboard praising children’s positive actions when they are going through a difficult stage - but being honest, I can’t bring myself to at the moment.

@HebburnPokemon Thank you. I have definitely wondered if he is on the spectrum. Members of his family certainly are. May I ask what you (and he) did to help things improve between you?

What he was doing was being unpleasant because he didn't get his own way. Time for a frank conversation, I think. Include all the feelings you've stated here, and be plain about it.

I have hideous narcissistic people around me. They are abusive and will gaslight.

I can't say if he's a narcissist or gaslighting but if you are open and honest about how you feel; ' When you do this, I really feel like x,y,z' then you'll get an idea what you're dealing with by the response. These responses are absolutely not ok! I accepted these for a lifetime by narcissistic family members.

' I was only joking '
' You're too sensitive '
' It's because you did x,y,z to me'

Plus, blatant denial of having done or said what they did.
Denying things that actually happened
Never taking any accountability for anything

Always suggesting you're the cause/ problem.

I would never again engage with someone like this.

However!! My son is Autistic/ ADHD and often doesn't even realise what he just said. He also thinks he just answered me when he hasn't. I see this is not intentional gaslighting. It's something about how his brain works.

I get alot of 'i was only joking,' with my son also but in response there will be a sit down discussion every single time as to why it's not ok to pull that crap line. If someone said to me that something I said or did hurt them I would never pull that shit line out. I've actually removed it from my vocabulary.

It is interesting that most of the responses are very mild and understanding but I totally disagree. Weather or not this is a gaslighting or in fact ADHD is beside the point. It is very rude and obnoxious and I would be furious too. In this particular instance he is getting angry at you for not taking HIS dogs out?!? He is telling YOU "everything has to be about you"? What?!!? That is BS!

Most definitively sit him down and give him your peace of mind. I personally think that this is just a beginning; that it is a snowball that is about to get bigger and stronger, but I may be wrong (sorry). I just left an apparent narcissist after being married to him for 25 years and am very sensitive to this kind of staff. 😢

I too think you need to talk. At some point when you're both chilled and nothing is happening.

Have answers ready. Eg re him earning more than you point out thats because you worked part time to raise your joint child and the gender pay division which is hardly your fault. The cost of nursery care and wrap around being xyz these days so I've saved you money by doing the childcare work. Etc etc.

Re his comment It's All About You, I'd be trying to work out what he meant by that and turn it round to the truth as you see it.

I wonder if he feels he does everything and you do nothing? Perhaps you need to write down a list of all the things you do round the house on a daily basis that he doesn't realise gets done. Perhaps things need reallocated or you need to walk a day in each other's shoes to make sure of a fair labour division?

If you're menopausal you might want to mention that as it's becoming common knowledge these days that it changes your body, memory, energy/sex drive etc and is a long term thing that we can get help from via HRT if appropriate but we are changed if we can't/choose not to go down that route.

Mmm, I think he sounds unpleasant for constantly throwing back in your face that he earns more than you. I hate that. I earn x5 what dh does - I have never once suggested that means everyone else should work around me. it's the nature of what I do vs what he does.

Re the dogs, this sort of thing used to happen with us. eg the dog will jump on me constantly and I'm desperate to get out the house (or worse, I've just come in and I'm wanting to put my stuff down or go to the loo or whatever) and I'm annoyed because DH doesn't just feed her as that would stop the problem.

But what I've learnt is that atually, I just have to ignore the dog, push her away and head out. Dh WILL feed her, he just wont' feed her at that exact minute to make MY life that little bit easier. Which actually, is not unreasonable - why should be interupt what he's doign because I want the dog fed now and not in 2 minutes?

In your case, I think the issue here really is that you are resentful of any dog care you do, even though you do love them - so having them today wasn't a huge issue but part of you was resentful. And then when he got home, he should really have immediately have been prioritising them for food and a walk. Which I totally get. And its why I have told Dh and Dc that we will not get another dog when this one goes. They can tell me until they're blue in the face that they will take on ALL of the caring, but we all know that's not the case and I don't want to do ANY dog care.

Wow he was a dick and people are being way too kind about it.

OMG this sounds like my mother talking about my father! Grumpy, miserable, angry, controlling sod at home, but at work, the life and soul of the party, everyone's best friend.
She buried herself in other interests but eventually had an emotional affair: Guess she couldn't carry on forever without receiving any affection, love, attention. After he died, I remember my sister saying 'They were married for 25 years: Which is a long time, for people who never really loved each other'.
To answer your question - no, its not gaslighting, but it's not normal either.
You need to find some more happiness - my mother did.

Yewtreeberries

re your comment:
"I feel I am holding out until DC have left home and then I can rethink the situation".

Rethink the situation now, not when they've left home!. And when would that be anyway; not all children leave home at 18 to go off to university far away. That's you just kicking the can down the road and your DC also won't say "thanks mum" to you for doing that to them. Your H was and remains a dick of the first order to you. Think on what you're also teaching them about relationships; currently you're showing them that this treatment of you is acceptable to you.

I'm sorry but to me he sounds narcissistic, and is throwing toys out of the pram when you said no.
I don't have any advice other than sharing my experience:
I get silent treatment if I politely say no to whatever the request is, I get shouted at if ever he feels he is not my upmost priority like if I don't want to cancel my appointment when HE double booked something. etc etc, I also get 'try paying for things' but conveniently forgetting things I do pay for, and the cherry on the cake ' you get whet you are given' when I had audacity to voice my opinion on what type of car I would like (again I pay for car lease)
if any of this resonates check out Dr Ramani on you tube and her book "Its not You"

@DaisyChainsandSunnyDays ‘you get what you’re given?’
Wow
Guess you left him, but by this stage was he still alive?

@Bittenonce I have not left yet but getting my ducks in a row, having therapy, saving money, making new friends, looking for a better job and mourning relationship I thought I had.

I feel really tearful reading these replies. I’m grateful for all of them; thank you for taking the time to respond.

I know I am kicking the can further down the road, but I feel frozen. I hate the thought of disrupting DC’s lives, and I don’t want to hurt H either. And selfishly, I am also scared for myself. What if I throw away the life I have, only to end up alone?

But then, i just look at H and don’t feel love. It’s sad, for me and for him. I even avoid looking at him too much because it reminds me of these feelings. I do care about him, definitely, in the sense he is an important person in my life, and I value him in many ways. I am not sure if he loves me; he still wants to have sex, but that’s different. But surely for real love you have to actually respect somebody. He does say it sometimes (possibly when hoping for sex, but also I wonder to what extent he’s aware I’ve mentally signed out, and he is seeking the reassurance of a reply.)

I just want to feel I will live my days out with a person with whom I share a deep connection. But not everybody has that, right? I am really lucky in the grand scheme of things.

@DaisyChainsandSunnyDays I am sorry. He sounds awful, and I can’t imagine how much it must be grinding you down. Do you think your H knows you are intending to leave?

@Bittenonce Is your mother happy now? She is lucky to have children who are so understanding and caring. How did it affect your relationship with your father, seeing him behave that way towards her?

Please don’t freeze! You really will be just kicking the can down the road, exactly as you say. With my parents - youngest sister was at primary school when they split , but she was happy and loved, she’s probably the most well sorted of all of us! And my father was a sod to all of us tbh, we were in it together but it was all we knew. Mother was happier afterwards for sure, more confident and content.
You talked about respect - I lost that for my wife due to alcoholism, so in my experience I think without that there can’t be love, living with someone where there’s no love is a joyless place. I stayed too long because it felt like I had no choice, but really it was because I wasn’t brave enough?

@Yewtreeberries I get what you say about deep connection, my relationship is so shallow sadly. At the moment I’d rather be on my own forever. I know there are good people out there but honestly all I can think of is peace and quiet of life alone with my children in a little cosy home.
Although I have not openly talked to him about separation I am honest about how his behaviour is impacting our family, I am not pretending everything is ok. We had conversations where he made promises of going to therapy, not drinking, being less controlling about money ( he earns 10x what I do but I have to ask for every penny ) not putting pressure on me if I don’t want to have sex, being present with our children, doing more around the house, I have even spoken to his mother about going through hard time in relationship.
sadly I know effort he is making now will not last, he still has not contacted a therapist or domestic violence helpline for perpetrators I have given him details for. I’m using this time to prepare for what’s coming and like you I am very sad. Because I still love him but ultimately I have to love myself more.