Is this DARVO?

[leolibra]

I’ve got some concerns about my relationship and the fact that at the moment I can never raise anything without DP getting annoyed with me or it turning into conflict.

I’ve been reading lots on here and have heard DARVO mentioned a few times. Tonight we had a situation that reminded me of DARVO so I wanted to post to see if this is the sort of thing it is? It’s a really trivial example but just to see if I’m understanding correctly!

For background, DP and I have had several conversations in the past about the fact he's quite messy around the house and I've tried to explain the reasons why it bothers me and to ask for his help with keeping it tidy.

So back to tonight’s example…

Me - (Said light-hearted as I was trying to avoid an argument) What's with the kitchen cupboard doors being left open now too?
Him - Well you left the back door open and the dog got out
Me - What's that got to do with you leaving a kitchen cupboard door open
Him - Because we both left things open
Me - Well I had my hands full of rubbish and couldn't physically shut the door but would have when I came back, so that's a bit different
Him - How is that different, we both left things open
Me - Because I left it open while I was carrying something and not just regularly leaving things open for no reason
Him - It's still leaving something open, you can't just try and pick and choose the difference
Me - Well I don't think it's the same but okay (giving up at this point so I just start to walk away to carry on doing jobs)
Him - (as a comment to my departing back) - It's not my fault if you can never accept that you're wrong

I always find conversations like these so confusing… is this the sort of thing DARVO is?

Tell him it's amazing what you can pick and choose and that he's being a twat. He is communicating to you that he does not care about your complaints, and doesn't want to hear it.

It would be wonderful if women could time travel forward a few decades for a few hours-lots of us got into these types of conversations when young, about help and tidiness, but would tolerate far less now. It would be eye opening!

I suppose that is a minor darvo. He doesn't sound like a keeper, anyway.

I couldn't be bothered with that level of petty squabbling. Is it like that all the time? He was wrong and banging on about it in order to make you seem in the wrong. Yes you are right that is DARVO but often it's about more serious matters.

Thanks for your help with this. I know it’s a really minor example but it was a current one and fairly simple to explain so thought I’d use it to see if I’m understanding right what DARVO is. Something along these lines happens nearly every time I raise anything that could land vaguely as a criticism. Unfortunately I think that means I’ve got into a bad habit of tiptoeing around issues, by not raising issues at all or allowing the stupidity in the conversations to go unchecked. I probably should have just said stop being a twat!

Yes, maybe be more direct. Something like this maybe?
You: please shut the cupboard doors
Him - Well you left the back door open and the dog got out

You; don't deflect, cupboard doors need shutting after use.

Him blah blah blah
You: two wrongs don't make a right, just stop leaving the doors open.

Great example, thank you. I’ll definitely try something like that - being more direct and not getting sucked into the bizarre conversation. I can see how I’ve ended up tiptoeing because I’ve been met with bad reactions from him in the past and that’s no fun… but tiptoeing clearly isn’t working either so I’d be better just trying to keep it simple and direct!

Darvo??

It's what (abusive) people do to twist something round: Defend, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender.

Yes it does sound like DARVO.

Agree with a PP about being more direct about it but fuuuuuuck who can be arsed with nursemaiding these selfish little twats into doing the tiniest little reasonable thing without throwing a pathetic tantrum?!

Yes that’s DARVO! I deal with every time I have to bring anything up it’s always taken as an attack. Both my mother and husband do this it’s beyond exhausting.

I'm normally one to defend women as so many men are just shite at housework. But your comment was passive aggressive not lighthearted. In a marriage you either accept you're with someone who doesn't live/clean/tidy like you do and you can't change them, or you decide it frustrates you too much and leave them. Unless he's only recently become like this, you've known he leaves cupboard doors open when you married him. It doesn't bother him and he likely thinks if he lived alone he'd leave them alone and no one would die, so you're making a fuss. So you reminding him every day, passive aggressively is just an annoyance and he gets defensive.

Options are you either explain why you prefer them closed and why it upsets you he doesn't - and hope he cares enough about you to change. You start closing them yourself and accept it's the price of marrying someone who doesn't think like you or care enough to change. Accept he genuinely doesn't remember and cannot physically change and his other qualities make up for it. Or you leave him.

What you should stop doing is reminding him constantly because it has never worked. Insanity is doing the same thing repeatedly expecting a different result.

Sorry, realises you're not married. That's good. In that case I would think very carefully if he's the right man for you given how important tidiness is to you. If he's messy, he has a different value system and isn't going to change. DH and I are both messy and it doesn't bother either of us - I would never have married him if I was tidier or he was neater as I'd resent changing my way of living so drastically. My friends spend their lives cleaning after and complaining about their husbands - it's madness. The whole point of living together before you commit for the long haul is figuring this stuff out!

Really interesting replies, thanks all. I definitely didn’t mean it to come across as passive aggressive. I’ve tried talking to him directly in the past, explaining that it makes me feel calmer if I’m in a tidy home etc, and it’s either been met with agreement that he’ll help more that lasts only a week or so, or later on it was met with him getting annoyed / sulky with me for bringing it up or telling me that my standards are too high. Which is how I’ve ended up trying a different approach as I didn’t want to keep not mentioning it (which I’ve been doing for a while) but didn’t want to cause an argument - so I tried “light hearted” but it makes sense that I got the same reaction if it lands as passive aggressive.

Earlier in the relationship DP “hid” his messiness… made more effort to tidy, never was bothered by my neatness etc - but the messiness has been an issue for about a year now so I guess I do need to accept this is who he is and stop trying to force my needs on him!

Just live separately and see each other on evenings and weekends. Many of happiest couples I know are in long term relationships but don't live together.

He san live like a pig and you can have have clean environment and still be in relationship.

Mess makes my mentally unwell, we need clutter free tidy homes to feel at our best. It is so so important for mental wellbeing.

He sounds wonderful..not