how to help DP defeatist attitude?

[matchavontrapp]

Met online, is a second major relationship for both of us after long marriages, been together 4 years, live in different towns, plan to move together when respective kids have left home (about 3 years). DP works in social sector with addicted people and is a very caring, loving, funny, sexy guy, a good father, and we get on very well. He is one of those people in life who look after others and are not as nice to themselves, very gentle, and also finds it hard to communicate assertively and tends to avoid conflict. I think that deep down he doesn't believe he deserves the good things in life (tough upbringing and very little creature comforts, Dad never acknowledged him, Mum was kind but enmeshed in her own problems). We are both a little bit dramatic and hypochondriac (I am a cosseted overachieving anxious type), the difference is that he is very kind when dealing with my drama and I am maybe more impatient when dealing with his.

The issue that I'm feeling more and more is that he gets so easily defeated with what seem to me relatively small issues. He had to have a minor op and they didn't explain the procedure or what happens after, and he was sad and worried. I said 'why didn't you just ask them?', and he just didn't/couldn't. Or communications with his ex about their DC, he won't proactively find out her plans and then is surprised and hurt when she makes a plan which is not convenient.

I do really love him and he is such a lovely and mostly fun and wry person, how can I help him to increase his self esteem such that he is not apologising for his own shadow? I can see that my love for him helps and makes him feel good, but it can never really make up for whatever deficits he had as a kid. I am not expecting to change him radically but just for him to get to a place where before he automatically complains about how powerless he is and sees himself as a victim, he has the confidence to take action and put himself out there? Or is it a completely lost cause and I need to accept it if I want to be with him? (I am a very enthusiastic constant self improver, and I do know how irritating that can be and try to let it show through actions rather than telling everyone about the latest podcast).

Any advice much appreciated!

I am not expecting to change him radically but just for him to get to a place where before he automatically complains about how powerless he is and sees himself as a victim

You are trying to change him. If you don’t like those traits you’re not compatible. It’s his responsibility to change his outlook. Having dated men with a victim mentality I wouldn’t do it again.

You are wanting him to change his personality - i think you'll be waiting a long time. I suspect when you move in together you'll end being a mummy to him, or being continually frustrated, or both. Whatever the reasons are, if he can't ask basic questions about his DC, medical procedures i'd be concerned. These don't sound like high-conflict, pressurised situations, just conversations adults sometimes need to have.

Thanks, these are good insights. Tbh I probably can live with these traits and just gently encourage him. My ex DH was very sure of himself and confident and kept emotions buttoned up, and we could never develop a really good emotional connection, DP is different in that he is emotionally aware and I feel really understood and free to be honest. It feels like it is kind of the price to pay for someone who is absolutely un-arrogant. I don't think it's possible to find the absolutely perfect person who is both assertive and tough and emotionally very aware and all the other things I need in a relationship (good sex, a lot of joking and humour, enjoying the small things in life, being fit and healthy, being open minded in general, etc, etc, etc). DP ticks so many boxes that I don't want to give up on him.

I would not be too eager to blame his self esteem or childhood. Victims often set themselves up to be victims and can be manipulative. He can not be emotionally aware if he has a victim mentality.

Not communicating with his ex then playing the victim is a red flag in my veiw.

This is really giving me food for thought. We don't live together so a lot of everyday issues are not things we have to deal with - I wonder if it would be more difficult if we did. The thing is that no one is perfect, and it's the stage in the relationship where we are realising each others' flaws: I am also not the greatest communicator, but rather a massive people pleaser and a bit passive aggressive, find it very hard to honestly express my feelings, and bring my own emotional baggage into it. That would also be a red flag for a lot of people. At the centre of our relationship is a real goodwill and attraction towards each other, and I am fairly confident that we can gain a deeper understanding of each other and help each other with our various issues. I don't want to see DP as something I just consume and then move on because he isn't perfect, but rather help each other.

When I realised that I don’t need to be a grown ass man’s healer, mother, teacher, therapist, cheerleader etc etc I then found one that came already ‘ready’ - full package

Of course nobody is perfect. But some traits are more troublesome than others. An adult who sets themselves up as a victim is refusing to take responsibility and unfairly blames others.

It sounds like you think playing the victim is something he does with other people like his ex wife, so you are willing to overlook it. You might feel differently when that behaviour affects you personally.

I feel like he does not so much play the victim, as much as he genuinely feels powerless, as in, is actually a victim. I realise it comes out as similar, but the difference is that people who play the victim, which I have been guilty of at times but not consistently, do it to manipulate the other person into doing what they want. Whereas he genuinely just assumes he will not get his way, things will probably not go that well, he will have to put up with losing, and he doesn't even try to convince or guilt trip the other person. I could not deal with that. He is driven by fear and a lack of trust in the universe in terms of his negative character traits. His positive traits strongly outweigh this as it has contributed to him being very compassionate in his job and also with those around him. I am also very fearful in some ways like a complete terror of the dentist and dental problems where he wouldn't bat an eyelid, but strong in others and always fundamentally assume things will go more or less well, or at least there's little point in acting as if they won't.

You have to accept him as he is or not at all unfortunately....there's not much scope to expect people to hugely change after a certain age.

If he's got a job, children, and a relationship, there's hardly much motivation for him to change.

(Incidentally, I can see the attraction as well of having a partner who is a bit "softer"....not super driven and trying to win or get his own way all the time! As I get older, a lot of these types start to wear thin).

Maybe you're seeing part of yourself in him and reacting to that?

Can you emotionally disengage or practice radical acceptance? Is he offloading these issues onto you?

If he's not standing up for himself and expecting you to pick up the slack/problem solve then I'd pass it back to him or just zone out or repeat something like 'what a shame'.

How much is this affecting your life? With the ex, are the childcare arrangements affecting you?

If his life are going ok overall (say he's not being targeted and ripped off for 1000s of pounds every day) then does it matter?

If his lack of assertiveness is genuinely causing you issues, then I'm not sure you can fix him.

I have some male friends who are this personality "type"...great 1-1 and have been great emotional and practical supports to me.

However, I wouldn't want to be in a tense group situation with them due to them having social anxiety/lack of assertiveness etc.

(they wouldn't react well or panic or clam up, and then I'd be upset).

So I've tried to reconfigure my relationships with them so I can skim past these situations and enjoy them and the relationships "as they are" rather than how I'd like them to be.

Thanks! Yes exactly, I've noticed a lot of women go for a more beta type after getting divorced, basically a more gentle, calm, softer type of man. Also you are right that I see parts of myself in that, I am also very fearful in some areas, I do get upset over small issues (learning to calm myself down) and while I can be super assertive and have no problems at all presenting to a large conference, there would be many normal adult situations, e.g. parking the car in a tight spot, having to discuss a problem with the kids' teacher, or any confrontational situation, where I would be extremely highly agitated, so yes we are a bit like two slightly terrified bunnies but one bunny fears different things than the others, hopefully with a view to helping each other to have more confidence.

It doesn't impact me directly since we both live with our DC a 2 hour drive apart, seeing each other weekends and holidays, and his life is functional in terms of job, DC, friends, activities, sports, a second degree he is taking, etc, I wouldn't have been interested in someone dysfunctional without a full life. Also he does make a big effort to please me and to take a leaf out of my book. He sounds like the male friends you describe, basically a true beta male, he is not good in big groups and is happiest having an indepth conversation with one other person telling him their troubles or a funny story.

I feel that radical acceptance may be the way forward because he is a really good person, absolutely bats about me, wants me to be happy, and is just really sweet, it's more like a dog that's been kicked too much than a wolf in sheep's clothing iyswim. And like I said I am hardly without my own - I can imagine, rather trying- oddities and foibles, which he deals with very kindly and patiently. It's just rather terrifying going into a real long term thing after a failed 20 year marriage as the stakes seem both very high, and not high at all...

I do think (especially if you've struggled with confidence or assertiveness or feeling bullied yourself) it can be fairly tempting to want someone who comes across as quite "alpha" and confident and can handle themself and takes all the issues away!

(And then seeing them not coping or shutting down or getting flustered when someone is being rude, is a bit...."oh dear!" as all the trauma and insecurities about being seen as vulnerable crop up).

(and unfortunately, yes, depending on your lifestyle, there are lots of micro-aggressions and weird situations and horrible people out there!)

But a partner won't necessarily provide that reassurance or protection.

Unless they're a Billionaire who can whisk you off to their private island, which realistically I don't think most of us are going to get.

So it's down to you to manage your own anxieties and mental health, and ask the partner for practical help as and when according to their abilities.

Like with the teachers meeting - there'll be women married to high flying aggressive barristers who will still have to deal with something like this solo?

You have to get through it and maybe expect a supportive chat later on.

If there's a one-off incident where you feel DP could have been more assertive, could you work on just self soothing and moving on?

Depends on how much it affects you, it's ultimately your choice.

If you both find group/public situations a bit pressurised (and yes there are adult bullies who aren't the nicest to people when they pick up any air of vulnerability) then enjoy chilling out together 1-1 at home and putting time and energy into things which benefit you both...

Not everyone is good at confrontation or tense situations btw - often other people will misrepresent how good they are at handling things!

With the switch to WFH, you can see how so many intelligent successful people clearly are "voting with their feet" on how they basically just want less hassle or tension or aggressive people in their lives.

OP you seem to be very insightful into how both your character and his character have been shaped! I think having that understanding is actually key. I don't get the sense you see him as a "project" to mould (some people do in relationships and it's very annoying) but more that you want him to want the best for himself out of love, I guess. I've had friends with really low self-esteem and I can definitely understand how frustrating it is that they can't see how great they are. Possibly some friends might have said similar about me at times. It's the human condition, to differing extents.

The bad news is that he can't change in consciously. You can't wake up one day and suddenly decide you have good self-esteem. It's a process and it's usually based on empirical evidence, on how the world treats you.

My self-esteem is great now. It wasn't when I was 20 and hadn't found my people or my place in the world. You gain self-esteem when you have people around you who show you love and care and friendship - they don't have to tell you this out loud and it's not something you necessarily realise. But at some point you think, shit, I've come a long damn way from X years ago.

It sounds like this relationship is good for him, and it sounds like it is for you too? In that case, it'll raise his self-esteem naturally. Maybe not quickly, and maybe you'll have to accept that he'll always be defeatist to an extent, but one of the great things about a mutually healthy relationship is that you both become better versions of yourself in it.

Ah you ladies are great. Thanks for the very helpful insights!

Yeah, in my early 20s I was definitely drawn to the kind of Can-Do Mr Darcy of ex DH because having been at boarding school and being quite alpha anyway, he always had a plan and was never at a loss, and never lost his cool in difficult situations, and I found that very comforting as I was so extremely anxious, flighty and insecure. Unfortunately the emotional closed-offness that came with that wasn't so great. Now I realised I need the emotional connection much more, and I don't need someone with quite so much of a plan since I've been forced to evolve to have my own plan and solve most problems that come up. And this person who is able to be sweet and emotional is a bit scaredy combined with being too nice for their own good, and that is the trait I have to come to terms with and help him with, and not judge him too harshly for. Even if we weren't together I would want to see him happy and doing well, that part of it is independent of the relationship but hopefully the relationship is feeding in to that..

The relationship does feel good for us because I think I help him see himself and the world in a more hopeful and creative way and he really focuses on encouraging me to open up honestly to him and say what I feel (still often impossible and fills me with horror but I know it's needed).

I am going there tomorrow and there is a family event with his family over the weekend so will think about all this. Many many thanks. The irony is that both he and I both, I think, give out good advice to each other and to friends (when asked!) but it's always so much harder being wise when advising yourself...

A relationship isn't a cure for what ails him - he needs to go to therapy or counselling.

Stop trying to be his therapist and fixer-upper. Just be his girlfriend.

Why are you going on about alpha and beta blokes? The way you're writing stuff isn't like a boyfriend and girlfriend. Tell him to get a therapist or something.

I'm just trying to think deeply about it.. He is important to me and also we've both been around the block a few times and bring our own baggage..

We had a really good talk this weekend and he said that often he does feel and know the good side of things but tends to mention the negative more, and that he understands that it sounds like he thinks everything is against him. I think it is more that he has a bit of an Eeyorish (the sad donkey in Winnie the Pooh) basic attitude to life, but actually his life is going well. I tend to panic if someone I'm close to sounds negative anyway, I find it hard to deal with it and tend to go in with a lot of energetic solutions, as I can't bear someone to be unhappy, I just want to help them solve their problem, and he said he really appreciates me listening to him and being there but he's not expecting me to find the solution. So think on good track.