How can you tell whether you're dating a narcissist? What are some of the key signs from your experiences?

[Vema]

Recently decided to let go of a relationship with a man who is 14 years senior than me. He is in his late 40s with 4 children (late teens to mid 20s) from 2 ex wives (1st marriage was only a year and 2nd lasted 20 years) and I am in my mid 30s, divorced with no kids.

He was extremely charismatic, and had a successful career. He was caring, loving, affectionate, and great in bed... etc.,

However, the longer it was, the more red flags I started to spot.. We were together for about 2 years.
He had a history of cheating (on both ex wives) and I caught him lie to me a few times. He kept saying that he learnt as he grew older and people could change. It was convincible in the beginning but less and less so as I started to observe the following from him:

1. insisted that his ex wife was to blame for one of his affairs as she did not move to the US with him for his work and he had to support the family whilst left "alone",
2. could get really moody and rude with random people,
3. did not tell me that the children were from 2 ex wives until after we slept together (I always thought he was married once only),
4. got annoyed if I didn't prioritise him all the time or most of the time, e.g. expected me to pretty much spend all of my free time with him. At first, it seemed rather sweet but after a while it became almost stressful as I had a life outside this relationship,
5. did not have much positive to say about his ex wife other than she was a good mother to his kids. etc.,

It was extremely tough to break it off but my gut feelings kept telling me that it just wasn't right with him.. or selfishly speaking, I felt I didn't deserve all the "baggage" with these kind of red flags.

I've started to read on narcissism lately and realised that he seemed to tick a few of the boxes.. This thought almost helps me to move on as it would clearly be a super challenging path to go down if I were still with him.

Just wished to hear more from those who had something to share on relationship with a narc. Any thoughts are welcome and appreciated even if you have not experienced it before (luckily).

Looking back ...

On the first date; "my life story would win an Oscar" ...

Not me, but a friend - her ex is clearly a covert/vulnerable narcissist so a bit different to yours possibly:

1 his ex was "crazy", had cheated on him, and was the reason he was had no money

2 See above. So he was the victim. So somehow, she felt obliged to let him move in very quickly (and meet the bulk of the expenses. natch).

3 He pushed a lot of boundaries very early. Things like pushing her to invite him to events/activities sooner than she was comfortable. Pushing himself into intimate family events that was inappropriate from very early.

4 complaining if she spent time away from him, and made her feel guilty, "I just get lonely at home alone while you're at the gym/seeing friends etc".

5 In early disagreements, completely over reacting, culminating in regularly disappearing on her for days at a time. On his return, it was always 'poor me' eg "I know I shouldn't be like that but I just get so upset and my childhood trauma makes me terrified of being rejected. I thought you were going to break up with me...." so she then would be reassuring him how she loved him etc etc etc instead of challenging him on his poor behaviour.

6 Massive oversharing (trauma dumping) in the very early days so that from day 1, she always felt on edge that if she did or said the wrong thing she'd trigger him.

7 Notwithstanding his desperate attempts to insinuate himself with her family/friends on the one hand, on the other hand, he did his best to alienate her from them. For example engineered arguments before family activities so that they were late/in bad moods on arrival or, more often, they were late, causing disruption including for a family funeral.

That was just the early day stuff. There was loads more over time. Sulking if she didn't greet him enthusiastically enough, abusive rants for the smallest things, whining that she didn't have enough time for him when they had their first DC (and second, obviously), completely contradictory statements made to her vs what he made to her family/friends about things.

I mean, they are all individuals and even with npd there are different spectrums. Fir example some are highly malignant. Where as others are just selfish.

But things to look for in my opinion are

• The (overt ones) say things that...aren't very humble. With a straight face. You know, like name dropping and boasting.
• Selfishness. They are all selfish. And it shows. In the beginning sure they might seem all about finding out about you and what makes you tick. But that's just part of the predatory behaviour. As time passes you realise...they have no bend. There is no compromise. There is all take and no give. And they are cold.
• You may find (again especially with the overt kind) that they constantly bring the convo back to themselves. That you are rushing to finish talking as you feel they want to talk about themselves again. Like you're just a sounding board for them.
• Competitiveness. You had a bad day? There's was worse.
• Exageration of their achievements. And (like your bullet point 4)
• They hate it when you're attention is not on them. For example, if they know you are busy studying for an exam or, have family round. That's when they suddenly need extra attention. They're having a hard day and need you to phone immediately. Can't you come round? Etc...
• They steal your (even very specific) words and phrases and repeat them back to you as if they are their own. As if they have scanned you and are copying you.

Also, I should.add that the vast bulk of the examples.above were invisible to everyone else. He told us he loved that she got pleasure from.the gym,. For example. She covered for him when he was absent. We knew they moved in a bit early for financial reasons but she was also skint so we just assumed it was a mutual win.

Even the constantly being late/in a mood.... she always took responsibility.

Also, I should.add that the vast bulk of the examples.above were invisible to everyone else. He told us he loved that she got pleasure from.the gym,. For example. She covered for him when he was absent. We knew they moved in a bit early for financial reasons but she was also skint so we just assumed it was a mutual win.

Even the constantly being late/in a mood.... she always took responsibility.

They hate it when you're attention is not on them. For example, if they know you are busy studying for an exam or, have family round. That's when they suddenly need extra attention. They're having a hard day and need you to phone immediately. Can't you come round? Etc...

This! In fact this was the first red flag with exBIL that dh and I clocked. In retrospect there were others but this is the one we noticed first. I remember being completely bemused because we were having a big family party for ds' birthday. She arrives stressed, without him as apparently he "had to" go collect something that day in the next county. Then he rang her 3 times because he wanted her to buy some furniture online so eventually she did it on her phone (it was from John Lewis, full price so no rush). Then 20 minutes later he rang because he was "lost" and needed her to talk him through a route. I remember dh and I saying, "doesn't he have a map function on his phone?" And afterwards we thought back and realised how often this had happened.

At Christmas that year he had a meltdown as he wanted to go see some extended family. Totally fine. Except SIl pointed out that she had asked him, repeatedly, so to announce on Christmas Eve that he needed to travel 90 minutes each way when they already had plans was pretty rude. So he came to Christmas as planned but SIL spent the entire day feeling bad that he wasn't seeing his family and mostly spent the day consoling him..... (the family member was question was one he saw no more than once a year usually).

Caveat: I do think the word ‘narcissist’ gets bandied around too much - but, that said, there are definite elements of these types of behaviour which are deeply damaging and often happen all together. From my perspective:

Always the victim. Always. There was an incident where I had to undergo major, life-changing emergency surgery and he still managed to make it all about him, how he was really suffering and needed sympathy. Related - will never take responsibility for any of his mistakes.

Gets too close, too quickly. Will really heavily push the ‘We’re meant to be together’ (or whatever) line and not allowing you to express any doubt. It’s a bit like being strapped to an express train (regrettably often with good sex).

Will tell different versions of the truth to different people so that he can always be in control of a version of reality which always benefits him. A side effect of this that I noticed was that he had shocking memory problems, I think because there was no stable ‘truth’ for him.

Yes on exaggerating his achievements; how wonderful his personal traits were, etc etc.

Maybe the hardest to spot but, underneath the lies, the charm, the charisma, the closeness, is that there isn’t really a person there; just someone who has a gaping black hole of need at the heart of them, who constantly needs to be in control of everything, and who will mould himself into whatever is needed for him to get what he wants.

My narcisist pretty much behaved like the things you describe in your list.

I think the first thing that happened that felt really off was that we were going out for the evening and on the drive there were having an "intellectual" discussion about something and I disagreed with his view.

The impact on him was off the scale. He told me that it ruined his night and he was very quiet and sulky for our whole evening. I couldn't figure out why a discussion with our having opposing views would be that bothersome to anyone.

The second last one I could particularly relate to.. When my family was here in the UK last summer for only a week, he acted like the world was ending as I didn't not spend much time with him, whilst it was totally fine when his children were visiting (staying with him) for 6 weeks..

I never moved in with him although he constantly pushed for it. Looking back now, I am thankful to myself for that sensible decision..

"Always the victim. Always.
Gets too close, too quickly.
Yes on exaggerating his achievements; how wonderful his personal traits were, etc etc.
who will mould himself into whatever is needed for him to get what he wants."

He ticked them all.. What a lesson learnt for me.

I responded to this particular comment too.. Couldn't relate more. At first, I thought it was sweet but after a few times it just felt off and something was right there. I felt guilt tripped quite often.

I honestly think that if we all left relationships that felt off/wrong/shitty/doubtful etc, nobody would be in a relationship with a narcissist. Or, they might be for a bit, whilst it felt good, and then they'd stop being, when it started to feel off/wrong etc, so the narcissists would get dumped when the mask came off.

I stayed because my self esteem was low and I thought I might be wrong to feel bad about the way I was being treated. I wouldn't have benefitted from a list of narc red flags. I would have benefitted from being taught how to validate my own feelings.

I never think it's appropriate to focus on the narcissist, or the other person in the break up, narcissist or otherwise. I always think it's appropriate to focus on ourselves, and the reasons that led us to keep someone who was hurting us so badly into our lives.

I think being v verbally aggressive in disagreements. So taking something that's upset you, levelling it back at you with a helping of 'and you ALWAYS xyz' and bringing up things from the distant past. You can never 'win'. DARVO.
Everything you do is shit, everything they do is the best ever, you must congratulate them at length.
Adultery v common I think. They cant be alone and must be idolised (not normal in long term relationship esp with kids).
See people as possessions.
Preoccupied with appearances and v materialistic... Not sure if this is common to all? Has anyone else had this?

YES! To all of this. Mine was a shortish relationship with a (I now realise) covert narc. My experience was:

Very charming and sweet, seemed almost too good to be true in his attention to me/seeming perfect for me. I now realise this is called mirroring, where they copy your phrases/use words you’ve used, say they’re into the same things you’re into. Say they’re so unhappy and they can’t believe they’ve found happiness with you. Made it seem like he’d found the woman of his dreams and was besotted.

Lovebombing - texting 100 times a day to say he was missing me/thinking about me, sending songs and Spotify playlists with songs that had real depth and meaning, buying small gifts, just completely wooing me.

Came across like the most altruistic person - talked about his achievements at work but not in a boastful way, but would get across how great he was whilst still seeming humble (overt narcs are more obviously boastful). As far as he was concerned he could do everyone’s jobs standing on his head and they all “needed” him to keep things running smoothly - but it never seemed like boasting weirdly - always said in a minimising way. Claimed to do lots of work for charity through his company for free. Had elderly clients he wouldn’t charge for work. Also had elderly friends that he did favours for. Went out of his way for everyone and would do anything for anyone etc.

Oops - hadn’t finished:

Had an awful childhood, mum died when he was young, dad was absent, gf was abusive. Didn’t speak to his brother and had no desire to. It sounded like he just cut people off if they upset him in any way.

Would drop into conversation achievements like he was a mountain climber and was going to climb Everest, had won awards for this and that. Was asked to do such a speech at a works conference as he’s such a great public speaker (according to his coworkers)

When I tried to cool things off with him as it was v intense became manipulative and told me I was “his only friend” and I would be “deserting him when he needed me”.

He was married btw but told me they’d separated and were just living together as friends until he found somewhere else to live. He Slagged off his wife calling her “soul sucker” and claiming she had MH issues, was a recluse for four years, withheld sex from him for the last 3 years of their relationship. When I tried to break it off and told him I wasn’t comfortable with the situation and the fact he was still living with her he said he’d told her about me and she’d packed her bags and left to go and live with the guy she’d been seeing.

Anyway, long story short it turned out he wasn’t separated at all. She knew nothing about me and discovered his affair by looking on his phone/computer. He was an absolute pathological liar and just said whatever he needed to in the moment to get what he wanted.

Ive no idea what was truth and what was fiction but I’m just assuming everything that came out of his mouth was a lie.

They are empty people with no real depth or personality - they don’t really know who they are and need a constant supply of attention to fill the void within them.

I think his wife may have stayed with him and I really pity her because she doesn’t know the half of it - he’s utterly toxic. He even admitted that he needed her for her money to live the lifestyle he was (they’re also very shallow and impressed by what they see as “covetable” people - be it good looking or successful people, people with money etc)

"Adultery v common I think. They cant be alone and must be idolised (not normal in long term relationship esp with kids).

Preoccupied with appearances and v materialistic... Not sure if this is common to all? Has anyone else had this?"

YES to both. my now ex cheated on both his ex wives, and had multiple affairs during his 2nd marriage. One thing that felt off even during honeymoon stage was the fact that he blamed his ex for one of his affairs.. He also needed constant compliment and reassurance. It was flirtatious at the beginning but exhausting after a while.

Appearances - He had a few things done to make him look physically good. I have no prejudice against men taking plastic surgery but it didn't feel right when he constantly needed to feel good about himself and he even talked about how he did it "for me" as he wanted to look good for me..

Materialistic - He spent big money on things he wanted (cars, watches, the usual man stuff), and to be fair he was generous towards me with gifts (which of course came across as charming at the beginning), BUT after a while, I realised that his financial ability wasn't as high as he made it out to be.

Sigh.

The lies - YES.

I've caught him a few times and it stunned me how he could keep a straight face doing it when I knew the truth. They weren't huge issues, but it created big doubts in my mind whether I could really trust him if he was this good and used to just lie about petty things.

I don't even want to write this as it revolts me, but even him showing me a good time in bed was just that - it was about showing off his prowess not about whether it made me feel good or not; just a performance like so much else in his life. We divorced after 20 years and life is so much easier without him in it.

I would suggest reading this book: https://a.co/d/6jiGpbb.
It opened my eyes and prevented from falling in the same "trap" all over again.

They want to be admired rather than liked.

Also - covert narcissists don’t always slag off exes (or whoever they think has crossed them), instead they’ll often feign concern for their mental health. They do this to plant seeds in peoples minds so they can act the victim when their actual victim finally loses the plot after all the abuse. “See, I told you they were unstable.” Easy one to spot as people who are genuinely worried about a loved one will be doing everything to help rather than just telling people they’re worried.

I find covert narcissists much easier to weed out as they get older. They get worse, and end up so cocky they think they are incapable of slipping up but frequently do.

I'm talking about a covert/vulnerable narcissist here: never to blame for anything, extremely passive aggressive, a chameleon - became whoever he thought people wanted him to be, no real sense of self, extremely delusional, needed constant positive attention from everyone - that could just be getting people to say yes in answer to his question, constantly in limerance with people but convinced they were in love with him based on very minor things they did.

People are pawns for his use - they are either useful or not and are easily discarded if not useful. To him a girlfriend was a trophy to impress others, no genuine depth to relationships, no evidence of an understanding or concept of love, no remorse, no real empathy, everything revolved around him and he genuinely thought the world should revolve around him. He would throw absolutely anyone under the bus if he thought it would make him look good and he could get away with it. Emotionally immature.

Lying comes more naturally than telling the truth (and feels much safer), gas lighting is a convenient tool. However it was always very important to him to appear as a good person and he would go to great lengths to give off that appearance, everything good he did was purely to make him look good not because he genuinely was. He genuinely thought he was better than other people though and was baffled as to why the rest of the world didn't see it - a complete fantasist. He was also never angry, never ill, never jealous - they were all seen as weaknesses, any negative emotion/illness/disability was seen as a weakness in others. In fact he was pretty much completely emotionally shut down and I think he saw that as a strength.