Thoughts on sexual banter with the opposite sex

[Mercural]

Hi. I’m a male in a heterosexual relationship with a mid 40’s lady. I absolutely adore her, and long to spend the rest of my life with her. But, we have a reoccurring problem, that is always about the same thing. It keeps coming up and causing bad arguments (she is very hot headed) so arguments always end up bigger than intended.
All of her male friends are either ex’s, ex hook ups, or men who want to take things further. Only one wasn’t in any of the above groups, and he has since broke off from her.
Since we have been together she has stopped contact with many, but a core few still exist as her friends. She definitely hasn’t encouraged any of them whilst we have been together, but she finds it impossible to be firm if they use inappropriate language, and she also still does sometimes slip up and use language that I feel is inappropriate now that she’s in a relationship – even if it was ok when she was single.

The biggest problem is a trans man, who finally came out (if that’s the right term) in his 60’s. This person is sometimes very crude and vulgar, and whilst single she would laugh along or join in, she now sometimes tries to sidestep the conversation. My view is that her trans friend should respect her relationship and not say sexual or crude things. Her view is that her trans friend is very important to her and she won’t change their friendship. My thoughts are that the feelings, emotions and wellbeing of your partner should always come before a friend, no matter how close a friend they are, and that if they are a good friend they will understand.

Therefore, I feel it is inappropriate for someone to have sexually explicit or crude and inappropriate conversations with opposite sex friends in private (i.e. via messaging or on calls etc.

I would greatly appreciate a poll of people to try and understand if my thoughts and feelings are too rigid or controlling, as if they are, I am willing to work to change them.

I wouldn’t be happy in your situation. I have one ex who I still get on with that I bump into once in a blue moon. His new partner is lovely & they have both invited me over for a cuppa. I won’t though, out of respect for my husband. I also won’t add them or have any other ex’s or people I once kissed etc on social media. I wouldn’t be comfortable if the tables were turned, so I won’t do it to him.

She's not gonna change and neither will you realistically.
You are incompatible. Call it a day as neither of you will be truthfully comfortable changing. It's not always about right or wrong, so many nuances and contexts make it irrelevant, bottom line you're not suited as you have fundamentally differing views on sex, relationships, boundaries, sense of humour, understanding of friendship, expectations in a relationship, communication styles, personalities. Even if we all say you're right and she is wrong, so what? It's all pointless as you're not in a relationship with us, it's her own views and yours that matter and which are incompatible. Doesn't have to be a bad guy about it, you're just different.

What kind of sexual conversation? Aimed at her or just banter or jokes? In groups or in private?

Was she friends with the transman while he was a woman?

and she also still does sometimes slip up and use language that I feel is inappropriate now that she’s in a relationship

What does she say?

It doesn't sound like she actually knows how to have friendships with men, what you are describing is simply people who want to sleep with but aren't right now.

I do think that men and women can have platonic relationships, that's not what is happening here. I'd end things

Trying to imagine how I'd feel about this if DP were doing it. Not great tbh.

I hold quite a few candles for exs but I'm not in touch with them at all.

Honestly I think I agree with the incompatibility argument. I don't think mature adults really change their behaviour often, or at least not at the request of others. I think this may be how she is, and that insisting on changes is likeky to fail. And if you dislike a lot of her friends, she may be more similar to them than you've realised.

It'd be an absolute no thanks, from me. I wouldnt even attempt to unpack all of that mess. She can do as she pleases she's her own person, but in your shoes I just wouldn't date someone like that. The only reason to continue is if you have a love of drama in life, or a cuckold fetish of some sort.

You can work to change your ways if you want to, even listen to those people on MN who love a juicy story and will want to know ALL the minutae of what she and her men friends say to each other, before telling you that she can have male friends if she wants to and you're just jealous and controlling.

But ultimately you are incompatible and if youre continuing this relationship its best to keep that in mind. Some relationships simply aren't rescueable. This one isn't. You're too different

Doesn't sound great. Can you give examples of what's being said ?

Both. She's quite busty, so her breasts are a constant topic for many. Also, as the guy who is transitioning to a woman she's now developing breasts - so a recent comment was something along the lines of "I'd love to rub your face in my breasts". All in private messages or in person, but not with me there.

Sorry if I caused confusion. The trans person was a man who is now transitioning to a woman. When they first met he made a play for her that didn't work out, and from then on they became friends. Apparently he (she now) has always been very rude both sexual and non, both personally and generally.

One comment that I felt was repulsive was after an incident she said, "I didn't think that's how I'd get to see your vagina".

That incident was before my time, so I have no reason to be jealous or anything, but it did strike me that their friendship perhaps wasn't typical or maybe even healthy.

The question you’ve asked makes it impossible to answer your poll, as the question isn’t clear. Maybe just asking “should you put a relationship before friendships”- in that case, my answer would be yes. Never be with someone that makes you play second fiddle to others.

But your issue runs deeper than this. You are with a woman who is crude, lacks boundaries, and doesn’t have much class. Sounds like you are very different people, and someone like that doesn’t just change. This is going to continue to do your head in. It’s not a simple case of her prioritising friendships, it’s that she lacks boundaries and is inappropriate with those friends. I’d also be suspicious that she has so many male friends, and has a history with most of them.

I’m speaking though as someone that doesn’t consider myself to have a male friends, just acquaintances, and I certainly wouldn’t say sexual or crude things to someone I’m not in a relationship with.

This is a compatibility issue, and quite possibly you are with someone disloyal, you are not the issue, she sounds disgusting and immature.

I’m sure she has some redeeming qualities or you wouldn’t be with her, but you need to decide if this is something you can deal with, as people like this don’t change.

My ex had no issue with telling women who came onto him (which he said was a frequent thing) that he fancied them, and other crude things “to not hurt their feelings”, I couldn’t get my head around that, but I tried to move past it with love. Over time his sinister shady character came fully to the fore, and I felt stupid for overlooking lots of red flags along the way. I hope you will think deeply about all of this, and either accept who she is, or leave the situation.

I agree your styles are incompatible.

For what it's worth, I shut down guys who 'banter' this way and I'm single! It's sleazy and disrespectful. She's telling you she enjoys sleazy disrespect. I can't say I'd blame you if you find that a turn-off.

That is inappropriate (the conversation with the trans "woman").

She lacks boundaries.

That's probably unlikely to change and you'll end up feeling like/or being made to feel like the kill joy, too serious, nag, police man etc.

Men who are single and willing to commit to a relationship are gold dust on the 40s dating scene so you should have opportunities. I'd look for someone else if I were you. She sounds low quality.

Your gf sounds very much like a good friend of mine. In nearly every relationship she has her friendships with exes or people who fancy her and flirty nature have caused problems. She is having therapy because of childhood sexual abuse and a few other issues due to being overly sexualised by men. There are a lot of complex issues going on behind her behaviour and she actually seems to dislike a lot of these male “friends”. I try to understand because she’s my friend and this doesn’t affect me but I wouldn’t like to be a man in a relationship with her. I can’t offer you any advice but I don’t think she will stop unless the therapy works as it’s so ingrained in her. But by way of understanding, might your gf have a similar background to my friend?

I’ve got a few friends of both sexes and the humour can get very sexual, especially after a few drinks.
As pp said, you don’t sound compatible.

Wow. Yes, almost exactly the same background, from her parents and early childhood sexualisation by male neighbours 2-3 times her age.

While the ‘banter’ sounds crude and juvenile, I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect someone in their 40s to modify their longtime friendship behaviour for the sake of a (presumably much more recent) relationship which may not last. Is it bothering you that some day you may be joining this group of friends who are also her exes? Either way, I don’t think you’re compatible longterm.

Based on my friend, who I know very well, if you really want a long term relationship with this woman, I would highlight all the things that you like/ love about her that aren’t based on sex and appearance, the sorts of qualities a platonic friend would appreciate, and ignore the toxic stuff with other men. But I appreciate that’s easier said than done. My friend has been a serial monogamist for the past 30 odd years with relationship after relationship failing and I am not sure if she will ever change. I do hope so though, because being spoken to constantly by men as if you’re a porn star or in a carry on film from a child until well into your 40s is not good for the psyche

I think the difference between adults and juveniles is that the former, through their time on the planet, and the experiences they have had, have an opportunity to learn, grow, and mature. A juvenile only changes through experience, as before then they have no frame of reference.
So, yes, I do hope a mature adult can know the difference between toxic behaviours and appropriate behaviours, so I do believe I am being reasonable.
When someone repeats behaviours that cause issues in relationships, and doesn't learn from it, they either don't care or have had such complex childhood sexualisation that they can't see it. I care about that and am trying to help.
And of course, it bothers me - I'd be a fool to dismiss it.

For those who are polling with "It's sometimes Complex", would you be prepared to give examples? I can guess a few reasons, and some have hinted, but I am genuinely intrigued to know in what circumstances a friend would take precedence over your partner - and why you feel that wouldn't, in effect, be like having a relationship that is intentionally crippled from the start. I really don't understand how any relationship could survive if one or both people behave that way. Please educate me.

Your partner sounds like a woman who's self esteem is tied to male approval and men finding her attractive and pleasing, which is why she allows sexual comments from these men. She finds them flattering and needs this to feel good about herself. This type of thinking and behaviour runs very deep. It can be overcome, but only if the person has a high self awareness, realises what they're doing and why, and actively wants to change. Its isn't typically something people stop because their partner objects. They instead try to justify, say it a 'you' problem because you're insecure and there's no threat; or alternatively agree to stop, carry on, and just be more careful not to be found out. You really just need to decide if you can live with this or not. For what it's worth, I couldn't.