I don't know what I need in order to forgive.

[LaundreyHepburn]

For background, my primary school aged son is quite attached to me. He's confident and outgoing at school, but at home he's like my little shadow. It's cute and I know it won't last forever, but sometimes it's a bit overwhelming and I struggle to tell him to give me some space because it feels cruel. This is probably to do with my own issues around abandonment but I'm aware of it. I sometimes talk to my DH about how I can find it hard when DS is being particularly intense. Just sounding off really.

Yesterday DH was telling DS off about throwing some recycling away in the wrong bin. I thought DH was going over the top and that it didn't warrant such a rant. I said to DH in front of DS that he was starting to sound like a bully and maybe that was enough now.

DH doubled down and started ranting to justify why he was going on so much about rubbish in a bin - DS doesn't listen, started making it about other things that DS sometimes does wrong, etc. It felt really shitty and I told him so.

Then - and this is the bit I can't forgive - DH said 'why are you making me out to be the bad guy? You slag DS off behind his back and tell me he's too much for you and follows you around all the time. At least I'm telling him to his face!'

This was all said in front of DS.

I'm devastated. I can't believe he stooped so low. It's not completely uncharacteristic for him to hit below the belt like that, but he's only ever done it to me. He's never brought the children into it before now.

Luckily it seems to have gone over DS's head. I don't think it registered in the way that I was worried it would register. He was upset that his dad had shouted but it was resolved quickly, DH took DS out to play football and all seemed fine between them.

However, it might sound like an overreaction but I cannot stop crying since. I just can't believe he was willing to be so cruel so easily. I just don't feel at the moment that I can move past it. Now he's shown who he is. I feel like a little bit of my love for him has died. I don't know what I need from him in order to make it better.

Now that things are all fine between him and DS, he's acting normal with me but I still feel really upset. I don't want to drag something on for longer than necessary but I don't know what I need in order to be able to let it go.

Was this a one-off incident, with him being unreasonably angry and cruel to your son? Or is this a pattern?

What he said was really cruel, and intended to cause maximum pain to your son while alienating you from him. Making you the bad guy.

If this is a true one-off, I'd insist on a conversation to understand why it happened. And I'd expect a sincere apology. And any sign of it happening again, and I'd start to re-think whether I want to be with this man. This at the very least would be needed before I could move on and forgive. I certainly wouldn't forget.

If however it's happened before, then I think you need to start that re-think now. He sounds like a bully who likes having control and hurts people on purpose.

The most important think is to be mindful of your son and his feelings. Keep a close eye. It may be that what your DH said didn't sink in, but it may be that it sinks in over the next few days. Or he remembers it on some level and it bubbles up in months or years.

And unfortunately - you now know you can't trust your DH with your personal feelings as he may use them against you.

Thanks for your reply. He's never done this to the children before. Although when he tells them off for something reasonable, it often escalates into unreasonableness because he gets stuck in a rant and starts bringing up other things that are irrelevant to the point in hand. So it can often start to seem like a bit of a character assassination. You don't listen, you're lazy, you need to stop doing/being XYZ, etc. The kids just roll their eyes at him as if to say 'dad's off on one again'. They find him tedious, not scary IYKWIM? But I hear how he talks to them sometimes and it hurts me. He'll sort of lead the kids down cul de sacs of logic and then when they look baffled or are stuck with what to say, he'll tell them their facial expression looks dumb or something. This is usually when I jump in and tell him to stop being a bully.

To be clear, none of us are scared of him. He's just a tiresome angry knob when he's like this.

The only time he's ever done something so off the charts cruel that I can recall is when I was pregnant with DC2 and he was away on business. I found some old messages on an ancient iPad I was trying to reset - between him and an ex who was on the scene when he and I first got together. I had some suspicions at the time but nothing ever came of it. Eventually she faded away into obscurity and we went on to get married. Anyway, I found these messages and they were definitely flirty. They also confirmed that he was with her at times when he had told me he was unavailable to see me (the reason it stuck in my head is that one of the dates was my birthday - the first I'd celebrated since we'd got together and he told me he couldn't come and I was gutted). Proof he'd lied, basically. But still inconclusive as to whether anything had happened between them.

I told him I'd found the messages and he hit the roof. Rather than try to reassure me, or even just admit to having dated her at the same time as me in the early days of our relationship (which, while not ideal, I could live with); instead of that he suggested to me, at five months pregnant, that we split up. That when he came back from his business trip, we go our separate ways. Unbelievable. I was distraught. He rowed it back eventually and we somehow repaired. But I've often thought if I wasn't pregnant at the time, I would've left him then for saying that.

Anyway. He's done nothing like that since until yesterday, so I know it's in him. And it always seems to be calculated to cause maximum hurt to me. Like maybe he secretly hates me? I don't know. I feel gross today and we have a house full of kids so bringing this up to him later without kicking off a row is going to be difficult.

You mention the messages were when you were expecting dc2, what were the circumstances of you getting together.?

I am supporting a friend through her divorce, he had an affair and then left her last year.It does transpire he had a fling when they were first together at University though they were supposed to be exclusive. I was shocked when she told me, I did not know either of them at the time.

I'm so sorry OP, the fact that he can deliberately hurt your DC like that is really worrying.

No the messages were dated at the time we first got together. But I didn't find them until I was pregnant with DC2, which was about it seven years later.

I know

To be blunt op, what do you like about him? He sounds horrible.

Ugh how vicious. :( I’m sorry, OP. That is seriously nasty behavior on his part

He sounds horrid.

It's sad that you've accepted him lashing out at you personally in the past but now it's one of your kids he's tried to hurt emotionally you're more hurt by it. I get it as a mum but what he's been doing up to yesterday hasn't been great either! Its all emotionally abusive behaviour towards you all. Yesterday he just ramped it up into also trying to damage your relationship with your son as well as hurt you both.

Have you ever considered he's clingy like this because of his dad's behaviour to you all?

‘But I hear how he talks to them sometimes and it hurts me. He'll sort of lead the kids down cul de sacs of logic and then when they look baffled or are stuck with what to say, he'll tell them their facial expression looks dumb’

Wtf? Prioritise your kids. You’re allowing them to be bullied by your shit bloke, they can’t escape, it’s on you to do better. Not sure why you’d want to forgive the man for his behaviour choices, has he even begged you to, or listed actions he will take to not bully kids anymore?

I completely understand how you must be feeling. I've been in a similar situation, where my husband has used things I've said as a way to cause a problem between myself and my son.
I would probably speak to both of them separately/or together and say you've probably said those things in exasperation, but didn't mean anything by them.
And then tell your husband never to throw you under the bus again!!

Don’t end up like my friend, she is lovely and put up with 30 years of shit. I cried with her when she said I don’t know who I am. He is eroding you bit by bit. Sending an unmumsnetty hug.

That’s way below the belt and I’d be telling him that.