Help with young daughter’s behaviour, school involving the child phycologist.

[Strawberrywine1]

Hi, I’m just looking for some advice really. I posted on development with now luck so I thought I’d try you lovely lot!

Long story short my daughter from the age of 4 till 7 didn’t see her dad. It was court ordered due to his “abusive behaviour”. Basically he is a narcissist and shouts when he doesn’t get his way etc. She now has every other weekend with him. She is almost 8.

Her behaviour has slowly got worse and definitely worse since contact started but that maybe a coincidence. She has always been extremely stubborn and digs her heels at any request for her to do something. Getting ready for school etc causes stress and arguments so does cleaning teeth etc etc. Nothing has worked so far, any punishment or reward is not enough.

This past couple of weeks though has got bad at school. She has always struggled to listen. I’ve been on and on at the school to get her some extra support but they haven’t thought it bad enough until recently. An incident happened where she was in trouble and she hid under the table crying and shaking, nothing they could do would get her out. She has done this now every day for a week. Any time she thinks the work is too hard or she doesn’t want to do it or she doesn’t like her teacher she hides. They have said she seems very distressed.

I’ve been to the gp several times as she also complains of tummy ache, I believe it’s anxiety. They have said the school needs to be sorting it out. Yesterday the teacher has said they are requesting the school psychologist to come and watch her to see what they think.

Ive always suspected she maybe ND, I believe I am and I struggled when younger with anxiety. I don’t have this anymore but I could if I didn’t use the tools I’ve learned.

From what I can see she doesn’t want to feel her feelings of disappointment when she gets things wrong. She has problems with loosing and other children winning or getting certificates. Instead of being happy for them she thinks instead she is bad so she didn’t get them. No matter how hard I explain that everyone has to win sometimes she still thinks she should. She has also stolen things from friends and school.

Im really struggling as you can’t talk to her as she is like a brick wall, she won’t listen and just goes blah blah here we go again.

Out of school activities with other children are often a disaster. Recently she had a horse riding lesson with 8 other children as a birthday present, children were strangers. She basically stands there not having any idea really whats going on or what’s being said. She then gets distracted which affects the teaching. The other kids get frustrated with her. She then ends up in tears, all the other children were horrible to me, they don’t like me, they were rude. You can’t explain that she needs to listen and not run off etc as she doesn’t understand that concept. She can’t put that together with why the other children were getting annoyed. This happens at every group, beavers etc. Same with getting ready for school. She can’t see that refusing and running off causes stress as she has to go to school and has to wear the uniform.

Any advice on what could be happening whilst we wait for the school psychologist??

sorry for the length !

This really sounds like autism to me!
How long until she can start up with the school psychologist?

I would suggest reading up on PDA parenting techniques as whether she is demand avoidant or not they will probably/hopefully help a little. She does sound very distressed. Has she said anything negative about the time with her father? She may have ADHD and or be ASD. As girls get older they can find masking harder so it could just be timing. Learning parenting techniques for any of this is probably beneficial regardless of end diagnosis. Hope the Ed psych comes through soon.

@Hbosh I’ve only just filled out the form.

@Pashazade Ive noticed it long before contact started. Over lockdown she refused to do any work. She was only small but hid and tore up the work. I’m sure he doesn’t help because he wants her to be perfect and make him proud when she can only be herself. I’ve heard her say she hates herself
and wants to be like the other kids who always do well in the class. It’s so so upsetting because she can only be herself. She seems to have given up trying now and hiding because it’s too hard for her. I’m convinced she is ND and has managed to mask it at school, although I’m been telling them for years.

I think it sounds like autism / PDA as well. Very similar to my DD13. Only officially diagnosed towards the end of primary. Wants everything to be perfect first time, leading to meltdowns / destroyed work when it's not. Instantly refuses any instruction. We've had to build extra time into morning and bedtime routines because of this. She also gets distracted and wanders off frequently. Her peers used to get frustrated with her as she didn't 'get' the rules of games. She ended up being mothered by older kids or playing with the reception kids as they would play games the way she wanted to.

I'm not sure if this is helpful, but the main thing we find works is patience and extra time - which is so hard when everyone is stretched and tired, I know. Hope the ed psych comes through soon. Don't wait - mither the school. My main regret is that we let the school fob us off with a watch and wait policy - which took four years!!!

Is she on the SEN register at school? I'd push for this also, but our DD also has LD and was behind by 3 years.

@EgonSpengler oh wow she also plays with the reception kids only as she says she is the boss and the older kids only if they mother her. She is becoming more and more behind as she goes through the years. If someone sits with her she will do a lot more.

Yesterday she hid under the table in the morning because she made a mistake in the art lesson and she said she shouldn’t have.

She also cheats in games and has to win and doesn’t understand others can.

It sounds like shes struggling with her mental health due to the break down of her parent’s relationship, and her father’s parenting. Ask school to refer her for mental health support via the local behaviour support service.

@Strawberrywine1 This sounds exactly like our DD13. Still has to win and will cheat if needs be - trying to teach her to be a gracious loser. Not happening any time soon! Yes DD will do more if she has someone with her. The kids complained when they were partnered with her, some even just did the work without her involvement as they didn't want it to be wrong or messy. Totally broke my heart.

Kick the school up the arse about the ed psych. If she's falling behind because she doesn't have the correct support it's on them. If you have means you could get a private one, which will get things moving quicker, but they are pricey. When you get a diagnosis apply for an EHCP asap. As I said the school completely dragged their feet on this and we only got one just in time for secondary. DD now goes to a specialist SEN school and is so much happier - she is progressing at her own pace in a class of 12.

@Soontobe60 I've also thought that but Im not sure if there isn’t something underlying making it hard to deal with her emotions.

So sorry to hear you are going through this, my son has autism and adhd and we struggle every day, it’s a massive learning experience for us all.
i am also a ta in a primary school so have a lot of experience with ND.

I think getting the phycologist on board will help, it will unfortunately be a slow process but you will hopefully get answers eventually.

does your school have an ELSA? ( emotional literacy support assistant)
if so then your daughter may benefit from some one to one session. Also charities such as MIND should be able to offer support.

it really helps to know you are not alone, if you feel comfortable doing so, then seek help and support from other parents in your area that have been through this. It’s so important to look after your own wellbeing and mental health.

you’re doing all you can 💖

Any of your guys have any tips on how to make mornings better. She is so difficult in the morning, she will never just get dressed for school. Shouting obviously doesn’t work, just laying out the clothes doesn’t work, rewards don’t work. When I ask and ask she digs in more and more. She just says I’ll get ready when I want to and when I need to. It’s so stressful. I just don’t know how to handle her. Everything is always on her terms.

I would go to the GP and ask for an autism referral. It can take a long time and the quicker you get on the list the better.

Email the school and specifically say you think your daughter is ND and you would like the school's help in arranging an assessment.

Getting referred by both the GP and the School means your referral is more likely to be picked up.

At home, think about sitting down with her at a non-stressful time and making a visual timetable of the things that need to be done in the morning. You could cut out pictures together from magazines etc. Can she tell the time? If so, let her choose a nice clock for her bedroom. Basically you are giving her everything she needs to feel in control - but also setting clear boundaries.

This book might be helpful - it gives practical advice
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Declarative-Language-Handbook-Thoughtful-Challenges/dp/1734516208/ref=asc_df_1734516208/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=428017759642&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=14919461142097636393&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9045594&hvtargid=pla-894552775868&psc=1&th=1&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=103526073030&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=428017759642&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=14919461142097636393&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9045594&hvtargid=pla-894552775868

Best wishes.

@ohtobeinenglandinthespring we are waiting for a psychologist assessment at the school currently. We’ve drawn up so many charts. The latest is linked to her beavers badge and it hasn’t worked either. She just says what you worried about it’s not your badge. She goes off grabs a toy and stares at me ignoring getting dressed and smiling .

Wary of diagnosing on mumsnet but agree you are on the right track with engaging the professionals to see if she needs a diagnosis. She sounds a lot like my son who is ASD.

We were lucky enough my son’s school were pretty good and whilst we were waiting for a diagnosis just took the approach that ‘let’s treat him as though he WERE autistic, using the same interventions and so on, and let’s see if that works, even if he isn’t autistic’. Makes sense right as like you the regular- kid approach of rewards and punishments (works for my other kid!) didn’t help at all.

If you are a reader i’d really advise reading ‘how to raise a happy autistic child’. Despite it’s title it’s sadly not an instruction manual but does explain really simply all the types of features of autism and how you can help your child. You may (like me) read chapters and feel like you are reading a description of your own child.

For mornings. What we find works well is either routine or choice. This way no demands have to be placed on my child as he’s either doing something because he wants to or because it’s just what he does each day.

This may not work for you but as a brain dump:

• I allow a full hour and a half for just him to get ready. I’m with him supporting the whole time so i get up earlier to get myself ready (i dress smart for work so do hair and makeup etc). This means I get up at 5.30. Sorry ☹️
• first step is he lies in bed when i wake him and he chooses what he wants for breakfast. He doesn’t eat in school so has a hot meal first thing. I keep a lot of batch cooking in so he might want something like lasagne or whatever.
• once that choice has been made he goes downstairs and can watch tv whilst i’m making his breakfast
• eats breakfast at the table but with tv on
• then the routine is get dressed, brush teeth, out the door. these final steps are the ones he likes least but we always do them in the same sequence the same way quite quick so he doesn’t fight. Like pulling off a plaster 😂

This has taken years to get right but works just about now. Realising he didn’t like his uniform because of the scratchy labels helped (he is 8 now and only revealed this a few months back). I took out all the labels and he resists less. Also i put his clothes on the radiator so it feels nice and warm to put them on which has also helped.

We set a lot of timers, so he has 20 mins to eat breakfast, 15 to get dressed and so on. Only ONE instruction at a time and in the mornings, minimal pressure or questions which might distract and overwhelm him.

With a kid who is demand avoidant (even if they aren’t ND) you want to avoid yelling at them or telling them what to do because the more you do the more they will dig in. If you think of the carrot / stick basically bin the stick. It’s all got to be carrot carrot carrot. If she gets dressed super quick she can watch a youtube video. Or let’s hurry hurry get dressed then we can have a dance party on the table! Or let’s do a contest who can get dressed fastest! Etc etc. To be fair my husband and his dad are not ND but are mega demand avoidant and if anyone ever tells them what to do or tells them off they throw a huge strop. Some people are just like that.

Any more questions ask away. A diagnosis is helpful but not the be all and end all. You can make changes now which will help. It’s one tiny increment at a time.

Also you say about everything being on her terms. Yep been there done that!

I would say - pick your battles. Just one at a time. So ours were no violence (took a few years to nail), then personal hygeine, tooth brushing etc (i would hold him and forcibly do them for 5 years, i didn’t realise this wasn’t normal and other kids brushed their own!). Now we’re onto manners. You’re in this for the long haul and no quick fixes.

We did find that the more anxious he is the more he digs in on opposition and demand avoidance. So by making sure he’s super relaxed, everything on his terms etc, then i can start slowly applying demands.

Tricky as a single parent as both parents need to be totally consistent with all this and it sounds like your ex doesn’t sound like the type to embrace new parenting ideologies

Could you try a timer for getting dressed?
Because of the way she reacts when she makes a mistake/fails something I think I’d go with ‘let’s see who fast you can get dressed’ and set a stopwatch style timer. Then tell her/show her the number afterwards.another thing that might work (but might not) is distraction. Like reading a story + getting dressed at the same time. It might give her something to focus on other than the thing she doesn’t want to do. This can backfire though if she refuses to entertain getting dressed at listening at the same time. Maybe worth a try at a time where there’s not a strict deadline?

The timer we haven’t tried so will give that a go. I imagine it will work for a while but she will get bored.

Oh and you mentioned beavers. In the spirit of picking your battles i’d drop that one. If she wants to do the badge she can. Hobbies should be fun.

I had to learn the hard way to parent the kid i have rather than the one i thought i’d have.

Have you looked at PDA? It's linked to Autism. Have a look at this link. It may help with how to approach resistant behaviour.

Edited: because I repeated myself.

https://www.pdasociety.org.uk/life-with-pda-menu/family-life-intro/helpful-approaches-children/

I have had a look before but I will have a look again. I’m just hoping the psychologist will help. I’m not sure but it does sound anxiety driven or fear. I know she struggles with making mistakes, she is too hard on herself when she does some school work wrong.