What’s a “normal” level of anger?

[wishfulthinking2]

As the subject says... I’m trying to get my head round what’s normal when it comes to anger.

DP seems to be very stressed recently and as part of that he seems easily angered which is putting me on edge. I'd really appreciate some objective opinions though as I'm aware that I'm not a remotely angry person (I don’t really even like raised voices) so there's part of me wondering whether I'm being overly sensitive.

Some examples of things that are happening:

• If something breaks, spills, is lost etc., it's very common for DP to start swearing, shouting and looking peed off. On a bad day he may also start being rough with whatever it is, banging things about etc.
• For example, last week DP was already stressed and then couldn’t get a zip on a bag to close. From the next room I could hear DP getting annoyed, raised voice, saying for f's sake this f'ing bag is sh*t, followed by loads of thumping sounds as he presumably started banging the bag on the worktop to try and force the zip to work, and finally heard the bag being thrown (literally) into the bin.
• If something in life isn’t going to plan, it’s again the same as the above. Swearing and a raised voice is common, e.g if we take a wrong turn on a journey. If it’s particularly bad though then he may start slamming doors etc too. For example I avoid doing DIY with him as if it doesn't go to plan the furniture will get thumped about, there’ll be swearing, I’ve seen tools being thrown back in the toolbox, a bag get kicked etc.

The anger isn’t directed at me, it’s at the object or thing that’s going wrong - but if I speak to him while he’s in that mood he does tend to get snappy with me, so I normally just try and leave him to it. 5-15 minutes after he’s been like this he’ll normally have calmed down and want to carry on like nothing happened.

If I do bring up something that's bothering me or even just go quieter because I’ve been upset by one of the behaviours above, DP seems to get annoyed with me. It’s not unusual at all for him to roll his eyes, shake his head, or sigh and say something like “oh, now what”. He tells me I’m going on at him when I may have only been speaking for a few minutes. Leaving the room and ending the conversation in response is quite common too. It’s like because he’s already stressed I’m adding extra stress that he can’t deal with.

These things aren’t happening every day but are often enough that I feel tense when things start going wrong. I’ve tried to speak to DP and told him that I'm finding it hard as I feel like life / me are annoying him a lot… but he normally just says something along the lines of “so what if I’m getting annoyed, I am allowed to feel annoyed”

I have no idea how to even respond to that as of course he’s allowed to have feelings… I just know that it makes me feel tense and uncomfortable when DP starts to behave that way. I’ve tried to explain that to DP too but he then says “so you’re allowed to be upset by it but I’m not allowed to be annoyed?”… at which point I get totally confused.

Am I letting this bother me more than I should?

Thank you so much everybody for the really helpful advice, it's given me a lot to think about.

I think you're right @MsMarch that some of the behaviours are subtle enough that in some situations they could be understandable and that's part of where the confusion comes in about whether I'm being reasonable in what bothers me etc. It's definitely always more than under the breath swearing - it might not always be full shouting but it's definitely louder than a speaking voice and just feels like he's intensely angry in that moment (rather than just frustrated).

Over the years I've tried to learn to make sure I'm communicating as well as I can - have learnt about trying to pick calm moments to speak, trying to make sure I'm phrasing things as "I feel" rather than coming across critical... so I do make every effort to keep things calm rather than confrontational... But it seems to be the fact that I'm raising something which is bothering me means it lands as a criticism no matter what words I use. His family have commented that he doesn't like taking advice - so again I think you're right that this could be a wider anger / defensive issue rather than a control issue.

@RuffledKestrel / @Isheabastard - thank you both for sharing your experiences, I really appreciate it. I recognise all of the feelings you've described and think it's a good point about him being able to feel angry but not choose to act on it in certain ways. As I'm thinking of all this through today I think it's becoming obvious that I am going to have to try speaking to him again to ask about all of this... as no I don't really want to live like this forever. It'd either have to improve or I suddenly really toughen up to it as at the moment it's definitely wearing me down.

I think I'm going to plan out what it is that I want to say to DP in advance of the conversation... and perhaps need to work out what my dealbreakers are too so that I know where to draw the line if needed.

A lot of helpful things have been said already, so I'm just going to add this:

Of course everyone is allowed to feel their emotions. Emotions happen and you can't always control/prevent them. Everyone can feel what they feel and shouldn't receive judgement. That means you, and him both.

However, not every behavioural response to these emotions is appropriate or acceptable. Behaviour is a choice, which should be controlled not to burden the people around you.

Feeling angry is okay. Reacting angrily, shouting, breaking items, cursing, ... Those are not okay. We expect toddlers to have more self control than this.

Meaning: he is allowed to be frustrated. He's not allowed to shout and curse. You are allowed to feel anxious when he shouts and curses. You're not allowed to shout back.

It sounds like you are spending a lot of time worrying about how to talk to him, but he's not worrying about your feelings at all...

Abuse however, is not about communication or a perceived lack of. Its about power and control and your H here wants absolute over you all. He controls the household via his moods. Its a small step between hitting inanimate objects and hitting you. This is deeply ingrained within him and he is not going to change.

Another question I want to ask you - do you want your child/children growing up to think that this is a normal relationship? That one party in the marriage has unpredictable and terrifying episodes of violence, screaming and destruction and everyone just...deals with it?

Because that's what they're learning , right now. They're learning that when Daddy gets angry, it's acceptable for him to shriek, throw things, boot things about and or destroy items around the house. They're learning this because you're tolerating it.

You're being abused and your children are being abused right along with you.
Do not excuse his absolute maladjusted emotional regulation as "stress". We all have stress, be it from work, family, money, health, general world issues. The overwhelming majority of people do not manage their stress by behaving like absolutely out of control toddlers who lay waste in their path because they're too emotionally stunted to talk about things rationally and calmly, as adults do.

Think about this - would you be better off without him and his fits of rage? If that doesn't move you, how much healthier, calmer, less stressed, and happier would your child be?

He does not have a problem with anger; he has a problem with anger, YOUR anger, when you call him out on his behaviour. AM courses as well are no answer to domestic violence which is also what you're describing here.

What if anything do you know about his family background; its very likely he saw one parent abusing the other like this or similarly. He really did learn a lot of damaging crap from his parents.

What did you learn about relationships when you were growing up?.

I doubt very much you will get anywhere re talking to him; you've already tried and its got you precisely nowhere. He will like it if and when you answer him back as it gives him a further challenge to take you down.

How does he behave around other people, he likely does not treat outsiders or his work colleagues like this and is probably all sweetness and light with them. With you he is not. I would seriously consider if this is at all a relationship you want to remain in because you have a choice re this man and your child here does not.

Another thing to bear in mind is how DPs behaviour affects your parenting. If you're trying to stop him getting cross, you might over discipline your DC to stop them getting dad cross.

Equally you might be too soft with DC, because you feel like you have to be softer/nicer to compensate for having an angry dad.

I wonder if some of the challenging DC behaviour is because they're confused about boundaries, if you think either of above (or maybe both at different times) is happening?

Good idea to plan what you want to say and work out what you need to change. It might help writing it down for him too, incase he gets very defensive and doesn't want to listen to you say it, then you can leave it for him to read.

as someone else has said: being angry or stressed is ok, even tossing the bag to the side would have been ok...but putting so much actual energy into cursing and damaging the object of frustration is not ok, especially since behaviour like this feels threatening even if it is not directed at you

People absolutely can control themselves if they need to, problem with your partner's behaviour is that he doesn't feel he needs to behave himself around you

Thanks again to everybody for your replies - I'm giving each one a lot of detailed thought and it's really helpful to hear other views.

I can totally see the point that at the moment DP controls the household with his moods - as at the moment when I'm deciding what to say or do in a situation I do take into account his likely reaction and let that potentially change how I would have responded otherwise. I don't know whether that's what he wanted or whether that's just an unintended consequence of his moods but either way I know that's not great and can't carry on.

I don't think DC have ever seen DP throw or kick things, partly as that doesn't happen as often as the verbal moods but also as I've made it clear that he needs to leave the room as soon as he starts feeling stressed when DC are there as I don't want DC to witness him losing his temper. I know they'll have heard him shouting on occasion though and know they'll pick up on the fact that he storms out of the house too - which I still don't want them to think is normal.

I try really hard not to let DP's moods affect how I parent DC, as there was one occasion which opened my eyes to that risk - DC had been really playing up and DP ended up shouting and storming out of the house at which point I said to DC "now look what you've done" - and was immediately absolutely mortified with myself as it wasn't DC's fault. Yes he was being very difficult in that moment but it wasn't his fault DP had stormed out. So I really learnt from that and try to make sure I never let worries about DP affect the DC choices I make. It is no doubt harder though when you're already feeling anxious yourself.

I would definitely be better off without DP's moods and therefore if he carries on like this would probably be better off without him... it's just so hard to say that when I'm scared of making the wrong choice and scared of the separation itself. It would be so much easier if it just worked and so of course the temptation is to keep trying to get it to work. I guess that's why I feel like I want to try one more time at talking to him... I'm not sure I believe it will work but it's almost I need to know for sure that I tried everything I could before I put us all through the pain of separation.

Growing up I think I learnt a lot about how to try and "keep the peace" unfortunately - life's easier and more comfortable if people are happy with you and I think that habit has followed me into adulthood. For DP I'm not aware that he witnessed abuse but I know he had some traumatic family bereavements as a child which I suspect haven't helped with his ability to emotionally regulate.

DP can get stressed and snappy in front of others but the shouting and thumping about from what I've seen does tend to be reserved for home (although it could be happening when I'm not there).

How long have you been with him?

He's basically neurotic OP. Despite it being popular amongst some online male communities to believe than women are more neurotic, I've seen this behaviour more often in men than the other way around. Lots of huffing & puffing over small things. Lots of drama. They've never learnt to self-soothe, neither would be particularly want to. Some of them like the attention, like pity, like the silence that falls around them as people start to tip-toe around Their Royal Highnesses.

Instead they want to continue to behave like a small toddler when they're spooked by a bit of loud noise. These people are hard work to be around, and they create a stressful, unpleasant atmosphere around them. I'm familiar with some of this and is one of the reasons I left my ex of 12 years. He just made things unnecessarily stressful, and I then I also felt that stress. If we couldn't immediately find a car parking space intermediately, then he would get tense or start huffing or swearing a bit. Most other people, unless they were late or close to being late for something, would have simply observed and gone looking for a space with no issues.

We lived in a very small house and so had no choice but to be inside that cloud with him. I avoided asking him for help with anything unless it was very simple, very fast, and physical - he'd last about 2 minutes without starting to huff & puff then swear. If it was something with the computer, he'd start banging the mouse down, and things like that.

It made me feel like anything small I asked him, anything that wasn't very simple or every fast to do was some kind of massive favour. It made me feel small, like such an inconvenience for asking for help.

told him that I'm finding it hard as I feel like life / me are annoying him a lot… but he normally just says something along the lines of “so what if I’m getting annoyed, I am allowed to feel annoyed

So he dismissed your feelings, then. He's going to keep doing what he does, and you're going to keep shutting up about it?

He is allowed to feel annoyed, yes, he's right. It's not really about being 'allowed' to feel something, is it. It's about behaving in ways that don't upset others, and having some kind of understanding that if you behave like a child in a tantrum, it won't feel nice for others present.

Am I letting this bother me more than I should

There's no 'shoulds' unless there are rules/guidelines. Which authority do you feel you should obey in life? Mumsnet's opinion? DP's opinion? Who is making the rules about how you 'should' feel?

I too am married to someone like this OP and have been married for 27 years- it started off quite mildly but has got worse and if I wasn't 62 I would be thinking seriously whether I could cope with this.