Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Are you abusive or are certain behaviours just abusive?

36 replies

Strawberrywine1 · 11/01/2024 10:43

I’m just wondering as at court the judge would never call my ex abusive but would say that his behaviour at times was.

I find it hard when talking to my daughter. She says things like daddy said he bought you things and sacrificed things for you so he was a good husband to you he says. I follow it up with yes but daddy shouted at mummy and mummy wanted to be treated better so she l decided to leave to keep us safe…etc.

She has said so is daddy bad. It’s really hard to answer. His behaviour towards me was bad but does that make someone bad? He shouts at his current girlfriend in front of her but not at our daughter (well she said he has raised his voice a few times).

He was generous but expected things in return (like your soul etc etc). I try and explain that we accept from people what we want to and mummy didn’t want to accept the shouting.

It’s difficult to explain I find that people think differently about things.

OP posts:
Hereyoume · 11/01/2024 12:51

Anything can be classed as abusive. There is no set criteria.

A man telling his wife what she can and cannot wear would be called abusive, a wife doing the same thing would most likely be supported with "you go girl, tell him your standards" type of rhetoric. It's now even acceptable for comedians to perform whole sets about the casual coercive and controlling behaviour of women towards men.

A partner can do everything "perfectly" and still be abusive in subtle ways.

We live in a society that encourages us to find fault or offence in almost every human interaction, and then post about that perceived slight on social media.

How many posts do you see on here asking "should I be offended" about X or Y?

I think everyone has the capacity to be abusive. Even without meaning to be.

There is a difference between physical/sexual abuse and psychological abuse though. The former are absolute, the latter is a more insidious process. Is telling you partner to look/dress a certain way abusive or controlling?

You don't like his beard, so you tell him to shave, he doesn't like your short dress so he tells you to change clothes. Is it abusive?

Is banging a tabletop more or less abusive than a contemptuous eye roll?

I don't know really. We all have different tolerances and lines in the sand.

Octavia64 · 11/01/2024 12:54

As your DD knows he is her father regardless of what you think I would not go down the route of saying he is a bad person. She might then think that she is too as he is her father.

If you say he did some bad things and it upset mummy then it is likely to have less of an impact on her sense of self.

something2say · 11/01/2024 12:58

I think acts are abusive and people can choose to change their actions. I was a DV advisor for years and this is how I broke it down, seeing so many different sides of the issue. We can all change - are we going to? That is a different question, and that then brings in the idea of risk - I remain a risk if I choose to continue engaging in these sorts of acts. But I can change those acts at any time, if I want, and therefore I am not intrinsically abusive.

Strawberrywine1 · 11/01/2024 13:18

I guess there is a difference if maybe you have a personality disorder I expect these are harder to fix.

My ex was just so desperate to be a hero and to be loved and worshiped (due to his upbringing) he forgot that I was a completely different human with different needs. When he felt slighted or not appreciated enough he snapped. He was sorry but it wrecked the relationship and my mental health.

OP posts:
Strawberrywine1 · 11/01/2024 13:32

Where im struggling is that he tells our daughter that he did nothing wrong and I’m the bad mummy. Even though a judge agreed his behaviour would have caused harm and he was sent on numerous courses.

The law says shouting and swearing at a person pinning against the wall is bad, wrong etc. my ex always said that I caused him to react in that way and he was justified.

OP posts:
Brosnan · 11/01/2024 13:38

Maybe the judge was careful with wording because they were basing their opinion on evidence which might not have been the full story from yout view because not all evidence meets a threshold and is accepted. Saying 'at times' means it wasn't consistent as abuse often isn't. Perhaps based on all thr other cases they see, the evidence against him didn't merit tarring his entite personality.
For example;
An angry man implies constant anger.
Angry behaviour at times: description of infrequent behaviour, out of character behaviour.

Maybe the judge was minimising or maybe they personally believed there was more to it however had to word it based on evidence not their own views or feelings. Maybe this description was their personal and legal view.

I think the best people to ask about the wording is your lawyer or a women's aid/family court advisor with knowledge of sentencing, maybe?

Strawberrywine1 · 11/01/2024 13:44

@Brosnan it was serious enough for the judge to deny contact for years so I don’t think it was minimised. I guess it was so he had the chance to change as saying out right you are bad and that’s that doesn’t give him a chance.

OP posts:
Strawberrywine1 · 11/01/2024 13:46

I just think if you not telling your daughter the truth and saying he did nothing I was the problem shows he hasn’t taken it on board. Or perhaps just really hates me.

OP posts:
Watchkeys · 11/01/2024 17:29

What's your actual question? Is it 'Is he bad?'

Nobody needs to be labelled 'bad'. Hitler was a really nice bloke to have a chat with, apparently, and very concerned with animal welfare. Does that make him 'good'?

Nobody is all good or all bad. It's like asking if someone is fast. They might be when they're late for work, but they might spend the whole rest of the time being lethargic and sluggish. The only answer is 'sometimes'.

Strawberrywine1 · 11/01/2024 19:50

@Watchkeys I guess I was trying to answer my daughters question of is daddy bad.

Ive read a few posts where they say even when they are being nice it’s calculated and they don’t mean it. It seems like thats a lot of pre calculated effort on their part. Daughter repeats to me daddy said he did nothing wrong, he bought you nice things etc so he says he’s good and mummy was bad for breaking up the family amongst lots of other things.

The truth was I did end the relationship because I didn’t want her witnessing her dad shouting and screaming at her mum and her mum a shadow of her former self. He seems to want to assign blame. I think he’s to blame and he thinks I’m to blame because I didn’t show him enough love and do as I was told. We both are right in our own worlds.

Is he a bad person because he has these morals? Is he abusive all the time or just when he snaps?

OP posts:
Strawberrywine1 · 11/01/2024 19:52

She witnesses him shouting at his gf. I’ve said shouting is not acceptable and unkind. She is saying daddy is bad. Is it the behaviour or him that’s bad?

OP posts:
HellsToilet · 11/01/2024 20:11

He sounds like a narcissist.

Tell her that daddy's behaviour is sometimes bad and sometimes good but it's all about balance. During your relationship he did more to make you unhappy than to make you happy.

He has the ability to do good things so he has the ability to be a good person. Only he can make that decision but the people around him also get to decide if they spend time with him or not. Your decision was not to.

Strawberrywine1 · 11/01/2024 20:17

@HellsToilet is that good behaviour good if it comes with conditions? Do I say it’s good that daddy buys you lots of things but it’s bad that he expects you to agree and be on his side with everything he says because that’s what he expects from his money? She says she is afraid to say that mummy is good not bad like he tells her. I find it so confusing because I think he is abusive full stop not that he has abusive behaviour but I can’t really tell her that.

OP posts:
HellsToilet · 11/01/2024 22:06

Keep it simple. You're over analysing every action. Nobody is all good or all bad. Yes, a seemingly good action if it comes with stipulations can be bad but that is where the balance comes in.

He may be all bad but it's not up to you to make up your daughter's mind about that.

EliflurtleAndTheInfiniteMadness · 11/01/2024 22:10

My EX still tries to control me and to control the narrative. He calls me names to DC, blames me for everything and criticises me to them. If they came back with something like this, She says things like, daddy said he bought you things and sacrificed things for you so he was a good husband to you he says Id say "sometimes people treat you the way they want to and it's not the way you deserve to be treated. Daddy couldn't treat me the way I deserved so we had to leave."

She witnesses him shouting at his gf. I’ve said shouting is not acceptable and unkind. She is saying daddy is bad. Is it the behaviour or him that’s bad?
You could try addressing the emotion instead. " Unfortunately Daddy never learnt to control his anger. Shouting isnt ok. How do you feel when he shouts?" Then help her work through how she feels. The problem with anything that involves criticism of him, no matter how justified can effect her feelings about herself, after all she's a part of you both. It can also make her feel bad for still loving someone who's bad.

Ex does the saying nasty things and wanting our DC to agree. DD gets really distressed by it and wants to tell him he's wrong but is too worried about his response. DS1 tends to agree, this can be a behaviour that helps the child feel more secure with the NRP. This makes DD even more distressed. I've told her I don't care what he says about me, it's not harming me and to just ignore it. He:s been saying nasty things about me for years, the wanting her to agree is a more recent thing. I say that she should do whatever feels safest to her. She's my eldest and has witnessed a lot that I wish Id protected her from better over the last 3 years. He doesn't matter, she does.

EliflurtleAndTheInfiniteMadness · 11/01/2024 23:19

Where im struggling is that he tells our daughter that he did nothing wrong and I’m the bad mummy.
I understand this all to well. Sometimes I just want to tell the kids it's all his fault, that he was abusive and scary and left me feeling worthless. That the reason he doesn't get more time to be a Disney dad is because he will emotionally abuse them and that he couldn't cope and would take that out on them. But the only thing that would do would be to cause even more harm to our children on top of the harm he continues to cause.

I'd try some different strategies and see what helps her. You could address the emotions, "How do you feel when Daddy says that?" You might find she feels confused or hurt or wants to believe him, or doesn't want to or feels bad for not agreeing even though she doesn't want to agree. Its hard when the two people you're supposed to love the most are telling you different things. Children with abusive parents may also side with the abusive parent because it feels safer to agree with them and she knows you won't go off about things.

You could talk to her about how when a relationship breaks down everyone has their own feelings and opinions about what went wrong. That for some people these strong/big feelings can result in them saying mean things. That he's saying that because of how he feels not because its the truth.

Honeysuckle16 · 12/01/2024 00:44

Your daughter has asked a simple question, ‘Is daddy bad?’ and wants a simple answer.

Your answer should be about the choices people make. Talk with her about an example of what happens if she has done something wrong such as being unkind to a friend. When the friend says she’s been unkind, your daughter can choose to continue or choose to change. Go over one or two examples.

Then explain that her daddy shouted and scared you. You asked him not to shout but he didn’t choose to stop. You realised that he would never make the right choice.

Then talk about what happens when someone knows they’ve done the wrong thing. They can choose to admit it or to make excuses. Get her to think of examples such as a child deliberately breaking another child’s toy. Afterwards they can choose to admit it or make excuses such as saying the other child had too many toys anyway.

Her daddy chose to keep shouting at people and chose to make excuses by blaming you.

Lastly, tell her that you also had a choice about whether to allow the shouting to continue or get away from it. This was a choice of 2 sad things. You made a good choice so that you’d be safe and she’d be safe. You try to make good choices always.

Sum up by telling her that the choices her daddy made were bad, and he keeps making this bad choice, as she’s seen while visiting. Her dad makes good choices too at times so he isn’t a bad person.

Hope this helps you have a good discussion with her.

kkloo · 12/01/2024 04:04

Tell her that daddy's behaviour is sometimes bad and sometimes good but it's all about balance.

Definitely don't tell her that.
That 'balance' is the reason why so many women stay in abusive relationships, they want to stay for the good. Or even teenage girls. My daughter is 13 and some of them already have controlling boyfriends who excuse the bad behaviour because of the good behaviour.

Strawberrywine1 · 12/01/2024 07:17

Thanks for the good advise, it’s such a complicated situation. @kkloo thats the dilemma, the good is never good enough and the good is actually manipulation so is not good at all. It’s how I have tried to word it to her. At the end of the day it’s never ok or acceptable to be shouted at and made to feel scared. He is kind of putting the nail in his own coffin and she is witnessing the reason why I left but she is very torn.

OP posts:
Epidote · 12/01/2024 07:24

I your daughter is saying "daddy was a good husband because he bought you things and sacrificed money etc for you" or I'm form other planet or yes he is not only abusive is branwasing your daughter.

The level or abuse, well there are many level, but is still abuse.

Strawberrywine1 · 12/01/2024 07:42

@Epidote its what he is teaching her about relationships when she is older that worries me.

OP posts:
daretodenim · 12/01/2024 07:55

Ive read a few posts where they say even when they are being nice it’s calculated and they don’t mean it. It seems like thats a lot of pre calculated effort on their part. Daughter repeats to me daddy said he did nothing wrong, he bought you nice things etc so he says he’s good and mummy was bad for breaking up the family amongst lots of other things.

Re this specifically. There's a very unhelpful idea that abusers are some kind of "bad person" who is somehow easy to spot. They they deliberately think "How can I harm X?" and then they go about it. And often get some pleasure from it.

Some are like that.

Some not so much. You said that your ex needed to be adored (basically) and forgot you were an individual human. Well that's abuse! But it's done subconsciously. His drive to be adored was likely so strong, that it dominated him, literally drove him (and still does). He didn't sit rubbing his hands together gleefully that he'd harmed you, but that drive was satisfied by you being harmed and he didn't feel badly about it, because it brought him comfort because the drive was satisfied. A bit like scratching an itch does.

But a good way to look at whether behaviour is abusive in an intimate relationship is to look at how both parties are impacted. And instead of abusive behaviour, use the word "damaging". If you have one partner who is pretty much fine and the other is really struggling because of the fine one's behaviour, then there's an imbalance. They're supposed to be equals, supporting each other and wanting the best for each other able to trust each other with their welfare. If the fine one doesn't help the struggling one, doesn't try to alter how they do things, or say straight up, "I'm not going to change, so I guess we aren't compatible" then it immediately indicates that at a basic level, they don't care about the other's suffering, because they're ok. You cannot be a life partner to someone, focus on yourself, pretend you're not, not feel uncomfortable at their struggling because of you, and be treating them in a way other than damaging. In the short term it may not be too harmful. Living with someone like that long term is very, very damaging.

Is it abuse? Well, in my opinion yes, because they're harming someone for their satisfaction. It may be a grey area if the struggling one never says they're struggling. As soon as they do, and they say why though, if the fine partner either carries on as usual or pretends to change just to keep her around for longer, then it's unequivocally abuse to me. There's no denying they know their behaviour is harming the other then. I'm not talking about physical things as that's more obvious.

For my kids, I say people can do good things and bad things. Everybody does a mix of things. But we all have responsibility for our own behaviour. If we think shouting isn't a good action, we shouldn't do it ourselves. We can learn how to do something else instead, because we are in control of ourselves. I don't say their father did X & Y and I don't criticise him. I try to give them the tools to make up their own mind about things they see him do and also counter anything he says about me.

Singleandproud · 12/01/2024 08:27

I think it's a little concerning these conversations are happening with your daughter at all. She certainly doesn't sound like she's old enough to have any perspective on relationship break downs like a late teen might.

You need to avoid 'good' and 'bad', if you must have these conversations stick to concrete things she's knows. " Yes, daddy bought lots of things but he also shouted alot. Mummy doesn't want to be shouted at".
If he is having these conversations with her leave them to it, she'll work it out in the end. Children remember more of what they see than what they hear so as far as being concerned about what he is teaching her think about what you have taught her too. When she's older and having her own relationships you can have a more detailed conversation.

As for whether it is abuse, NSPCC sets regular swearing and verbal abuse under emotional neglect, you arents a child but it would follow suit, I certainly would not be telling my young child he was abusive though.

Jamjaris · 12/01/2024 08:33

I would say you were not happy with her dad and are happier not being with him anymore. I would explain that being shouted at made you feel very sad and anxious and you felt it wasn’t acceptable. That explains how his behaviour made you feel and that people can choose to not accept any form of abuse from others.
Your ex is trying to get the children to take sides so I wouldn’t go down that route as that in itself is abusive. By just explaining you were not happy in the relationship you are not playing into your ex hands and painting the other as bad. Your children can see what he is like and understand as they get older that treating people badly is not acceptable and just drives people away as you have shown them from your actions.

Jamjaris · 12/01/2024 08:41

I would also say I’m sorry that you feel sad mum and dad are no longer together and it was nothing they did to cause the breakup and reassure them they are so loved

Swipe left for the next trending thread